Once saved always saved?

[Hammster]

All of the faithful are made just by grace through faith and their sins are forgiven so not counted against them. How does one come to know one is among the faithful - apart from asserting it because there are passages in holy scripture that assert that the faithful receive such gifts as being made just and being sustained by God's grace etcetera?

Did you forget that whole faith part?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Did you forget that whole faith part?

No, the faithful are faithful because they have faith in what God says and promises as well as because they obey him and act upon their belief in him, saint James explains it thus:

James 1:23-25 KJV For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: (24) For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. (25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.​

The faithful hear and do the word by continuing in the perfect law of liberty and thus they are blessed in their doing of the things contained in the perfect law of liberty. If one places his/her confidence in their doing of the things in the perfect law of liberty are they relying on works by adhering to some kind of synergism?

 

[Hammster]

One of those promises is that we are justified by faith. That is a one time thing.

 

[MoreCoffee]

One of those promises is that we are justified by faith. That is a one time thing.

The promise is made to the just; it is the just who live by faith as the holy scriptures say:

Romans 1:16-17 KJV For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.​

One must be among the just to live by faith and that appears to be what saint James teaches in his letter when he says:

James 1:25 KJV (25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.​

It is easy to see how the teaching of saint James meshes with the statement of saint Paul (quoted above). Both saints are teaching what the Lord Jesus Christ taught when he said:

John 15:8-10 KJV Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. (9) As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. (10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.​

All the faithful believe all of these words because they are the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ and are unquestionably true and infallible.

 

[Hammster]

And we know that those who are called ARE justified. The only way to be a lung the just is by faith. So it's obvious that even our faith is from God.

But this is getting away from the discussion. Are we justified (declared righteous) by faith? Yes. Do I have faith? Yes. Can I be sure I'm saved? Yes.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It would be encouraging to see the holy scriptures making the assertions made in your posts about people who may or may not be among the faithful - the passage in Matthew 25:31-46 teaches us that some assert they are believers (among the faithful) but are not.

 

[Hammster]

It would be encouraging to see the holy scriptures making the assertions made in your posts about people who may or may not be among the faithful - the passage in Matthew 25:31-46 teaches us that some assert they are believers (among the faithful) but are not.

No, it doesn't.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No, it doesn't.

There's a Monty Python skit that establishes that mere contradiction is not an argument.

 

[Hammster]

A mere assertion isn't one, either. Plus, I've explained that the sheep behaved in the manner that they did because they were sheep. Goats likewise. In other words, sheep weren't sheep because of what they did. They behaved according to nature.

 

[MoreCoffee]

A mere assertion isn't one, either. Plus, I've explained that the sheep behaved in the manner that they did because they were sheep. Goats likewise. In other words, sheep weren't sheep because of what they did. They behaved according to nature.

Having reviewed the posts in this thread I see very few explanations of holy scripture in your posts and almost no quotes from holy scripture but I see plenty of assertions in them. One does not want to point out a fault on one's interlocutor's approach but it appears that your argument is essentially "My interpretation of some unquoted and unnamed passages is all the proof of my own standing before God both now and for eternity that I need and I do not care to examine the scriptures to test my stated view if doing so implies that my stated view may be incorrect". I will not press this matter further, I think the weight of holy scripture evidence points to the truth that the just, the faithful, those who walk with the Lord and follow the example of the Lord Jesus Christ are the ones who will, in the end of their life's course, receive the blessing and rewards of God and the salvation of their souls. All of this is given by God in grace without any preliminary 'goodness' or 'faith' being required but all of it involves human will and desire and work despite it being a gift of grace. It may be a mystery to some - in fact it may be a mystery to all - but it is what the scriptures teach and hence what the faithful are called to believe. "Once saved always saved" is at best obscure because it does not tell us what "saved" means or when one is "saved" or how it happens or if it is eternal but it does appear to imply something about one's eternal standing before God as if it were known and determined at some specific (and humanly knowable) time in the past of each individual's life time on Earth.

I suspect that the waters of this subject are much too muddy to be fit to drink.

 

[Hammster]

Just because I don't give references does not mean that I haven't used scripture.

You want to believe that your goodness is necessary for salvation, so be it. If you want to think your righteousness has something to do with you, so be it. Me, I bring nothing. My salvation rests 100% on the finished work of Christ. I have been crucified with Christ, and it's not I who live, but Christ who lives within me. I hope someday you can say the same.

 

[Brighten04]

The never ending debacle of if you can lose your salvation.

Go.

If you are born again, no you cannot lose your salvation. That is why Jesus told Nicodemus " Ye must be born again". I know there are a lot of churchians who think they are saved by going to church and have no idea what being born of the Spirit means. My prayer for them is for our Father to save them that have no clue.

Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[charis en excelcis]

So, there was this debate of theologians over the issue of free will and predestination. Unable to reconcile they decided to continue discussion in two groups--one on predestination and one on free will. One theologian was undecided, but after several minutes of standing in the middle, he went over to the predestination side. One of the other theologians asked, "Who sent you here?" "Nobody," he replied, "I just decided to come over." "That's free will!" they all cried and kicked him out of the group. He went over to the other side. "So you finally decided?" a theologian asked. "No," he replied. I went to the other side but they sent me over." "That's not free will!" They all cried out and kicked him out of there group also.

 

[Alithis]

If you are born again, no you cannot lose your salvation. That is why Jesus told Nicodemus " Ye must be born again". I know there are a lot of churchians who think they are saved by going to church and have no idea what being born of the Spirit means. My prayer for them is for our Father to save them that have no clue.

Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

there are testimonies of those who passed from this life and returned which throw serious spanners at this line of thought that one cannot lose ones salvation and fully agree with the lord parables . but the question you raise of "if " a person is truly born again of the spirit is equally serious

 

[Brighten04]

there are testimonies of those who passed from this life and returned which throw serious spanners at this line of thought that one cannot lose ones salvation and fully agree with the lord parables . but the question you raise of "if " a person is truly born again of the spirit is equally serious

Consider this. When we are born again, we receive God's DNA. We receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. We become sons/daughters of God. Now, can we change the condition of our birth? He will never leave us., nor forsake us because He is in us. Wherever we go we take Him with us. Where can we go from His Spirit? He is in us.

 

[Alithis]

Consider this. When we are born again, we receive God's DNA. We receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. We become sons/daughters of God. Now, can we change the condition of our birth? He will never leave us., nor forsake us because He is in us. Wherever we go we take Him with us. Where can we go from His Spirit? He is in us.

And ..such a person will not continue knowingly in ungodly , sinful behavior ... so its a big circle thing which opens the discussion to big questions . is a person who repents of sin, confessing it to the lord knowing they will do it gain .. actually saved ? -or to be more precise .. are they actually born again of the Spirit of God ?

And yes i am speaking of absolute sin .. like adultery theft lies etc (the absolutes of the ten commandments) .for if it is the holy Spirit that lives in us will he do such things ? no . so if person does such things who is doing ti ? the person is of course and if the person continues in it without repentance ..they will perish . it is why we are called to live IN the spirit ..because in him we cannot sin because he cannot sin.. but if we live after the flesh to fulfill its sinful desires we will perish with the flesh .
in no scenario do we have it both ways .

 

[MoreCoffee]

Just because I don't give references does not mean that I haven't used scripture.

You want to believe that your goodness is necessary for salvation, so be it. If you want to think your righteousness has something to do with you, so be it. Me, I bring nothing. My salvation rests 100% on the finished work of Christ. I have been crucified with Christ, and it's not I who live, but Christ who lives within me. I hope someday you can say the same.

No one is good except God alone (Matt 19:17). That is what the Lord Jesus Christ taught and the faithful believe it.

 

[Lamb]

No one is saying that sheep are always obedient. But do we have a Shepherd that will let us walk away? If so, how is He good?

Again, you're trying to place blame on God when the blame goes on man.

So you reject the scripture that clearly states man can fall away? There is more, but I only chose to list a few since you belittled me last time when I gave you more in a different thread (you really shouldn't belittle others).

You see, even though we KNOW what the Gospel states, since God's Word also gives warnings, we have to believe those too. We cannot discard them saying they aren't true because that calls God a liar.

 

[Brighten04]

And ..such a person will not continue knowingly in ungodly , sinful behavior ... so its a big circle thing which opens the discussion to big questions . is a person who repents of sin, confessing it to the lord knowing they will do it gain .. actually saved ? -or to be more precise .. are they actually born again of the Spirit of God ?

And yes i am speaking of absolute sin .. like adultery theft lies etc (the absolutes of the ten commandments) .for if it is the holy Spirit that lives in us will he do such things ? no . so if person does such things who is doing ti ? the person is of course and if the person continues in it without repentance ..they will perish . it is why we are called to live IN the spirit ..because in him
we cannot sin because he cannot sin.. but if we live after the flesh to fulfill its sinful desires we will perish with the flesh .
in no scenario do we have it both ways .

OK, let me say it this way because I think we are on the same page to an extent. Once we are born of the Holy Spirit we become son/daughters of God. We have His DNA. We are sealed by the Holy Ghost. It is a gift of God. Now my Bible tells me that God's gifts and callings are without repentence. That means since while we were yet sinners Jesus died for us. He saved us in spite of our sin. He washed our spirits white as snow. He took up residence inside us. He owns us now. The definition of Lord is owner. When we gave our lives to Jesus, it no longer belongs to us. It is His now. There may still be residing in our flesh sinful patterns and in your soul sinful thoughts.But, your spirit, the new creation in Christ Jesus, is pure. The new creation desires what Jesus desires, but, old patterns from our BC days want to rule what we do. This is why the Apostle Paul being exasperated by his inability to do the right thing that he wanted to do cried out " Oh retched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Then he thanked God for Jesus because Jesus had saved him even though he served sin in his body. This is why in the church at Corinth, in the case of the man having his father's wife, Paul said, in so many words, throw that bad apple out so Satan can destroy his flesh, but his spirit be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. So, even though Paul and this man sinned again and again, it did not stop them from being born again saints. I agree, you cannot be sinner and saint at the same time. You see being a sinner is a state of being. We are all born sinners after the flesh. But when we are born again, our state of being changes. We become saints of the Most High after the Spirit. It is not incumbent upon whether I can break out of a bad habit that has worn a track into my soul. It is however dependent upon the promise that Jesus' finished work on the cross has me covered. Romans 8. We are all works in progress. Sin is sin. There is no big sin and little sin.

 

[Lamb]

Actually, we're saints and sinners at the same time. Saints because we're covered by Christ's blood and sinners because we still sin.