Sufficient vs. Necessary

Hammster

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I've unashamedly stole this from a friend, but it's based on discussions we've had, so it's okay.

[

The concept of Necessity vs Sufficiency is a logical (ie, pertaining to logic) discussion that asks questions about the implicational relationships between two things.

Necessity:

If something is necessary, that is the same as saying that the consequence cannot be true unless the premise is true. That is, the premise is necessary for the consequence in question to become a reality.

Sufficiency:

If something is sufficient, that means the consequence will, without fail, be true. In other words, that one thing, all by itself, fulfils all the conditions for the consequence to be realized.

I like to use fire as an example to teach this concept.

Fire (the consequence) needs three things to be true:

A) heat
B) fuel
C) oxygen

Each of these things individually are not sufficient for a fire. If you take only A, B, or C, or any combination of two (2) of them, it is impossible to create a fire. That means that all three of those things are necessary for a fire, but none of them alone is sufficient for a fire.

In other words, heat is necessary for a fire, but heat (by itself) is not sufficient for a fire. Heat, by itself, will not cause a fire (the consequence) to form. (a fire also needs oxygen, and something to burn, aka fuel!)

The same is true of fuel and oxygen.

So what is an example of sufficiency?

Being a father is sufficient for being a male.

If a person is a father, it is automatically true that the person is a male. (If they were female,and had children, they'd be a mother instead)

So being a father (P) is sufficient for being a male (C)

However, the flipside of this is not the same. Observe:

Being a male is not sufficient for the person being a father. However, being male is necessary to be a father.

In this case, you can be a male without being a father. However, to be a father, the condition of "being male" must be true, which makes being male necessary, but not sufficient, for being a father.

Now that you know the difference between necessary and sufficient, let's talk theology.

In theology, we monergists like to say that Christ's atonement was sufficient to save people. That is, his death secured everything those people need to be ultimately saved: their regeneration, their faith, their repentance, etc. Everything a person needs to be saved is secured by Christ's life and death for them. That means that Christ's life and death (in monergism) is sufficient to result in salvation. Another way to say this is that if Christ died for a person, that person will, without fail, be saved. Thus, Christ is sufficient for salvation.

However, in synergism, this is not true. Christ can die for a person (in synergism), but yet that person might not be saved. However, the person does need Christ to be saved. That means in synergism, Christ is necessary, but not sufficient. He is necessary because salvation is impossible without him (the way fire is impossible without oxygen), but he is not sufficient for salvatoin (his work alone is not enough for the salvation of a person)

That is because in synergism, something else is necessary: man's cooperation, man's input, man's choice, man's decision, man's free will. Call it whatever you want, word it however you want, but in synergism, there is this other thing that is a necessary condition for his salvation.

So, in synergism, both (grace + man's free will) are necessary for salvation, but neither by itself is sufficient for salvation. Only the combination of both is sufficient for salvation.

Fire:
Fire
Oxygen
Fuel

Synergistic Salvation:
Man's Free Will
Grace

In these two, you can't create the consequence (fire/salvation) with any of the premises or conditions by themselves. It takes all of them together to produce the consequence.

Monergistic Salvation:
Grace/Christ's death

However, in monergism, Grace is sufficient for salvation. It is not merely necessary, but it is also sufficient. Whereas in synergism, Christ is necessary, but not sufficient, in monergism, Christ alone/grace alone is actually suffiicent. It always produces the end result (the consequence) of man's salvation. Every. Single. Time. Without fail. It does not need or rely on anything else. It does not rely on other necessary conditions the way fire or synergistic salvation do. It, all by itself, is the sufficient condition for its consequence.

This is why the reformers said "Sola Gratia" or "Grace alone!". This is what they had in mind when they coined the phrase. They understood the difference between something being necessary vs something being sufficient.

Luther understood it
Calvin understood it
Even Erasmus, Luther's opponent, understood it.

Hope this helped! And I hope you understand it now too!
 

king of the unknown

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I feel like your missing a valuable point. Let me see if I can find a term for it. The opposite of a necessity. By many ways you may say isn't the opposite of a necessity still an necessity but the reason we have to separate them is because the way they affect the outcome. Here let me explain:

It take heat, oxygen, and fuel to make a fire. So those are necessary but what if you add something else to the mix like a fire resistant substance.

This can happen when you talk about sufficiency as well because rather then being something required for the consequence it takes away from the consequence.

This is were the fundamental difference is because if something prevents sufficiency, does the lack of it become a necessity.

In a math way, this make since that the lack of is a necessity but in the real world it doesn't make since.

The sufficient only exist as long as an outside force doesn't interact with the substance.

This anti-necessity doesn't add anything but instead prevents the sufficiency of something.

This is almost the dictionary idea of what sin is. Something that take away or distort what is already there. In someways you could say that the power of the anti-necessity is actually from the sufficiency of what it is stealing from. There is no actually power for sufficiency or necessity in the anti-necessity yet it can affect both.
 

Hammster

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Okay. I think you missed the point, though. Or possibly you understand the point but don't want to address it.
 

popsthebuilder

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Salvation takes Faith. This faith, if real leads to good works as a result and as proof to God of our faith. They are both nessicary for salvation. To claim Faith yet sow bad seed or produce bad fruit is to not have faith at all.

Faith in selfless Unity through Good
 

Hammster

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Salvation takes Faith. This faith, if real leads to good works as a result and as proof to God of our faith. They are both nessicary for salvation. To claim Faith yet sow bad seed or produce bad fruit is to not have faith at all.

Faith in selfless Unity through Good

Okay. Not sure anyone is doubting that. And not sure what that has to do with the topic.
 

popsthebuilder

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Okay. Not sure anyone is doubting that. And not sure what that has to do with the topic.
Both are necessary. Neither are sufficient by there self. Pertains quite well to the op in my personal opinion. Sorry you don't agree.

Faith in selfless Unity through Good
 

Hammster

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Both are necessary. Neither are sufficient by there self. Pertains quite well to the op in my personal opinion. Sorry you don't agree.

Faith in selfless Unity through Good

The topic is whether grave is sufficient to save, or just necessary.
 

popsthebuilder

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The topic is whether grave is sufficient to save, or just necessary.
It is sufficient in that it leads to good works if it is real Faith. Still don't quite see your problem. Did I offend you in some way? Your repeated negativity towards me seems quite unfounded and is not very productive in any positive way. Please, explain, that we may wash it away and start fresh. Thank you.

Faith in selfless Unity through Good
 

Hammster

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It is sufficient in that it leads to good works if it is real Faith. Still don't quite see your problem. Did I offend you in some way? Your repeated negativity towards me seems quite unfounded and is not very productive in any positive way. Please, explain, that we may wash it away and start fresh. Thank you.

Faith in selfless Unity through Good

I haven't been negative at all. To the point, is all.

It just seems like you didn't really read the OP because you really haven't engaged with it.
 

popsthebuilder

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I haven't been negative at all. To the point, is all.

It just seems like you didn't really read the OP because you really haven't engaged with it.
Both of my posts and others on other boards pertain specifically to the ops. I am not the best communicator at times. Perhaps you aren't the best at comprehension at times. Add those two things together and get confusion. I will attempt to be more clear in my responses. Perhaps you could attempt to be more opened in your attempt to understand others.

Thanks again, no disrespect or negativity intended.

Faith in selfless Unity through Good
 

Hebrews 11

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Faith as it is used in a bibical context is a transitive verb.
Grace as it is used in a biblical context is a noun.

SIC. Fire,=Faith

Fire = Grace

It is a magical assumption, to deny being saved by grace through faith
 

popsthebuilder

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Faith as it is used in a bibical context is a transitive verb.
Grace as it is used in a biblical context is a noun.

SIC. Fire,=Faith

Fire = Grace

It is a magical assumption, to deny being saved by grace through faith
I agree. To deny such is nonsense. To not following the teachings of Jesus after acquisition of faith or salvation is the lack of faith and or salvation. Thank you.

Faith in selfless Unity through Good
 

Hammster

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I'm gone all weekend and still nobody has dealt with the OP.
 

Brighten04

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I've unashamedly stole this from a friend, but it's based on discussions we've had, so it's okay.

[

The concept of Necessity vs Sufficiency is a logical (ie, pertaining to logic) discussion that asks questions about the implicational relationships between two things.

Necessity:

If something is necessary, that is the same as saying that the consequence cannot be true unless the premise is true. That is, the premise is necessary for the consequence in question to become a reality.

Sufficiency:

If something is sufficient, that means the consequence will, without fail, be true. In other words, that one thing, all by itself, fulfils all the conditions for the consequence to be realized.

I like to use fire as an example to teach this concept.

Fire (the consequence) needs three things to be true:

A) heat
B) fuel
C) oxygen

Each of these things individually are not sufficient for a fire. If you take only A, B, or C, or any combination of two (2) of them, it is impossible to create a fire. That means that all three of those things are necessary for a fire, but none of them alone is sufficient for a fire.

In other words, heat is necessary for a fire, but heat (by itself) is not sufficient for a fire. Heat, by itself, will not cause a fire (the consequence) to form. (a fire also needs oxygen, and something to burn, aka fuel!)

The same is true of fuel and oxygen.

So what is an example of sufficiency?

Being a father is sufficient for being a male.

If a person is a father, it is automatically true that the person is a male. (If they were female,and had children, they'd be a mother instead)

So being a father (P) is sufficient for being a male (C)

However, the flipside of this is not the same. Observe:

Being a male is not sufficient for the person being a father. However, being male is necessary to be a father.

In this case, you can be a male without being a father. However, to be a father, the condition of "being male" must be true, which makes being male necessary, but not sufficient, for being a father.

Now that you know the difference between necessary and sufficient, let's talk theology.

In theology, we monergists like to say that Christ's atonement was sufficient to save people. That is, his death secured everything those people need to be ultimately saved: their regeneration, their faith, their repentance, etc. Everything a person needs to be saved is secured by Christ's life and death for them. That means that Christ's life and death (in monergism) is sufficient to result in salvation. Another way to say this is that if Christ died for a person, that person will, without fail, be saved. Thus, Christ is sufficient for salvation.

However, in synergism, this is not true. Christ can die for a person (in synergism), but yet that person might not be saved. However, the person does need Christ to be saved. That means in synergism, Christ is necessary, but not sufficient. He is necessary because salvation is impossible without him (the way fire is impossible without oxygen), but he is not sufficient for salvatoin (his work alone is not enough for the salvation of a person)

That is because in synergism, something else is necessary: man's cooperation, man's input, man's choice, man's decision, man's free will. Call it whatever you want, word it however you want, but in synergism, there is this other thing that is a necessary condition for his salvation.

So, in synergism, both (grace + man's free will) are necessary for salvation, but neither by itself is sufficient for salvation. Only the combination of both is sufficient for salvation.

Fire:
Fire
Oxygen
Fuel

Synergistic Salvation:
Man's Free Will
Grace

In these two, you can't create the consequence (fire/salvation) with any of the premises or conditions by themselves. It takes all of them together to produce the consequence.

Monergistic Salvation:
Grace/Christ's death

However, in monergism, Grace is sufficient for salvation. It is not merely necessary, but it is also sufficient. Whereas in synergism, Christ is necessary, but not sufficient, in monergism, Christ alone/grace alone is actually suffiicent. It always produces the end result (the consequence) of man's salvation. Every. Single. Time. Without fail. It does not need or rely on anything else. It does not rely on other necessary conditions the way fire or synergistic salvation do. It, all by itself, is the sufficient condition for its consequence.

This is why the reformers said "Sola Gratia" or "Grace alone!". This is what they had in mind when they coined the phrase. They understood the difference between something being necessary vs something being sufficient.

Luther understood it
Calvin understood it
Even Erasmus, Luther's opponent, understood it.

Hope this helped! And I hope you understand it now too!

So, the real question here is "Is Jesus' blood alone enough to save?"
 
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