Once saved always saved?

[Hammster]

your going to remove accountability for willful unrepentant disobedience .

Where am I doing that?

 

[Hammster]

your going to remove accountability for willful unrepentant disobedience . the sheppard sheppards ,, but the sheep must hear and follow . he said that too -if they don't then they won't end up at his place .

No, he said His sheep WILL hear and follow. It's their nature to follow the shepherd. The rod in "thy rod and thy staff" was for protection and for discipline. Remember, He disciplines those He loves. He doesn't just let them run off and do whatever.

 

[Hammster]

Sheep are given to Jesus by the Father. If Jesus loses what the Father has given Him, you have a divide amongst the Trinity.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The problem with the goats was that they act like sheep because they were not sheep. Their very nature was that of goats. You cannot change your nature.

In the last judgement (as described in Matthew 25:31-46) it is the nations that are gathered before the Lord to be judged. They are separated like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. The setting given in the first two verses (vv 31.32) helps the reader understand that humanity is not visibly separated, in this world, into sheep and goats but that the separation is done by the shepherd (the Lord Jesus Christ as judge of all the Earth) at the last judgement when he gathers all the nations before his throne of glory to judge them in the presence of all the holy angels. It's important to bear that in mind. The setting gives us context and robs us of any prideful imagination that we may harbour that we are able to divide the sheep from the goats by our own insight in this world before the Lord comes to separate them for judgement. This is important enough for the Lord to have included it in his parables when he taught the disciples after the crowds went away without understanding. He taught them saying:

Matthew 13:36-43 KJV (36) Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. (37) He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; (38) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; (39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; (42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (43) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

Thus in this life it is not the work of the faithful to pick and choose who is a sheep and who is a goat but to tend the flock if one is a shepherd of it or to live gently and obediently as sheep is one is not a shepherd of the flock. The calling of the wicked may lead them to stand in judgement before due time and to boast of being sheep and discerners of other people'd hearts but it is not the calling of the faithful. So we ought to learn from the lessons of the Lord and be careful about what we say and how we judge so that we may find mercy in the last judgement as we showed mercy to others.

James 1:26 KJV If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

James 3:4-10 KJV Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth. (5) Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! (6) And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. (7) For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: (8) But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. (9) Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. (10) Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

Matthew 6:14-15 KJV For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: (15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. ​

 

[Hammster]

In the last judgement (as described in Matthew 25:31-46) it is the nations that are gathered before the Lord to be judged. They are separated like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. The setting given in the first two verses (vv 31.32) helps the reader understand that humanity is not visibly separated, in this world, into sheep and goats but that the separation is done by the shepherd (the Lord Jesus Christ as judge of all the Earth) at the last judgement when he gathers all the nations before his throne of glory to judge them in the presence of all the holy angels. It's important to bear that in mind. The setting gives us context and robs us of any prideful imagination that we may harbour that we are able to divide the sheep from the goats by our own insight in this world before the Lord comes to separate them for judgement. This is important enough for the Lord to have included it in his parables when he taught the disciples after the crowds went away without understanding. He taught them saying:

Matthew 13:36-43 KJV (36) Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. (37) He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; (38) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; (39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; (42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (43) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

Thus in this life it is not the work of the faithful to pick and choose who is a sheep and who is a goat but to tend the flock if one is a shepherd of it or to live gently and obediently as sheep is one is not a shepherd of the flock. The calling of the wicked may lead them to stand in judgement before due time and to boast of being sheep and discerners of other people'd hearts but it is not the calling of the faithful. So we ought to learn from the lessons of the Lord and be careful about what we say and how we judge so that we may find mercy in the last judgement as we showed mercy to others.

James 1:26 KJV If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

James 3:4-10 KJV Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth. (5) Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! (6) And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. (7) For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: (8) But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. (9) Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. (10) Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

Matthew 6:14-15 KJV For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: (15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. ​

Wow. I wasn't judging anything. All I'm saying is that it's the nature of goats to act like goats, and the nature of sheep to act like sheep. And that is reflected in the parable.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Wow. I wasn't judging anything. All I'm saying is that it's the nature of goats to act like goats, and the nature of sheep to act like sheep. And that is reflected in the parable.

It isn't a parable but a simile with an explanation using familiar imagery. But that was not the point of my post nor is my post accusing any in this forum or elsewhere of wickedness of any kind. The purpose of my post is to show how the Lord teaches and what he teaches about the last judgement and since this thread is about a slogan that some use as descriptive of their doctrine and none has really explained yet how one can know that one is saved or that others are or are not saved it seems relevant to point out that the last judgement is the time and the place when the hearts of men (and women) are revealed and their sheep-like qualities or goat-like qualities are finally revealed to the holy angels and to one another as the Lord pronounces judgement upon them having separated them according to his Divine insight, an insight that is true and infallible in every way. So how a goat or a sheep acts in this world as observed by human beings is not what counts at all. What counts is how the Lord sees these people and reads their hearts, an insight that is not given to men and women in this life, and how the Lord deals with them. The description of the last judgement teaches us not to boast of our sheep-qualifications nor to despise others for their assumed goat-qualifications but to seek mercy and pray for God's grace in all things. The calling of the faithful as Christ's disciples is to seek first the kingdom of God and the righteousness that comes from God alone and rest assured that in so doing all the good gifts of the Lord, which he intends for his faithful, will be given to them. So let all be careful what they say and how they behave towards others and how they speak of themselves. Let all who seek the kingdom of God pray with the man in the example given by the Lord, the man who said, "God be merciful to me a sinner" (Luke 18:13)

 

[Hammster]

It isn't a parable but a simile with an explanation using familiar imagery. But that was not the point of my post nor is my post accusing any in this forum or elsewhere of wickedness of any kind. The purpose of my post is to show how the Lord teaches and what he teaches about the last judgement and since this thread is about a slogan that some use as descriptive of their doctrine and none has really explained yet how one can know that one is saved or that others are or are not saved it seems relevant to point out that the last judgement is the time and the place when the hearts of men (and women) are revealed and their sheep-like qualities or goat-like qualities are finally revealed to the holy angels and to one another as the Lord pronounces judgement upon them having separated them according to his Divine insight, an insight that is true and infallible in every way. So how a goat or a sheep acts in this world as observed by human beings is not what counts at all. What counts is how the Lord sees these people and reads their hearts, an insight that is not given to men and women in this life, and how the Lord deals with them. The description of the last judgement teaches us not to boast of our sheep-qualifications nor to despise others for their assumed goat-qualifications but to seek mercy and pray for God's grace in all things. Our calling as Christ's disciples is to seek first the kingdom of God and the righteousness that comes from God alone and rest assured that in so doing all the good gifts of the Lord, which he intends for his faithful, will be given to us. So let's be careful what we say and how we behave towards others and how we speak of ourselves. Pray with the man in the example given by the Lord, the man who said, "God be merciful to me a sinner" (Luke 18:13)

I cannot imagine living this life unsure of my salvation.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I cannot imagine living this life unsure of my salvation.

The thread is about a doctrine rather than how anybody participating in it imagines life with or without some particular view of themselves.

 

[Hammster]

The thread is about a doctrine rather than how anybody participating in it imagines life with or without some particular view of themselves.

I know it's about a doctrine. Teachings have real implications. The fact that some teach that you just cannot know, but you should try really hard and hope for the best is really unconscionable. To do so you must divide the Trinity, and ignore the loving picture of Jesus as a Good Shepherd, and of the Father being a loving Father. I cannot grasp why someone would just ignore that.

 

[psalms 91]

I know it's about a doctrine. Teachings have real implications. The fact that some teach that you just cannot know, but you should try really hard and hope for the best is really unconscionable. To do so you must divide the Trinity, and ignore the loving picture of Jesus as a Good Shepherd, and of the Father being a loving Father. I cannot grasp why someone would just ignore that.

Perhaps because by concentrating on just one trait of thye Fatjher you forget that God is also a God of justice and judgenment and that even the saints will face the judgement seat of Christ whuile the wicked face the great white throone judgement. Concentrating on only one trait ignores the rest of scripture

 

[MoreCoffee]

I know it's about a doctrine. Teachings have real implications. The fact that some teach that you just cannot know, but you should try really hard and hope for the best is really unconscionable. To do so you must divide the Trinity, and ignore the loving picture of Jesus as a Good Shepherd, and of the Father being a loving Father. I cannot grasp why someone would just ignore that.

The parables of the kingdom told by the Lord and explained by him (in some cases the explanation is in the gospels) teach the faithful not to assume that they or any other person does know who is a weed and who is wheat, a good fish suitable to eat or a fish to be thrown away, and so forth. If the Lord teaches these things to the twelve apostles and to the disciples then the faithful will hear his voice and follow him. That is the nature of the sheep of his sheep fold.

 

[Hammster]

Perhaps because by concentrating on just one trait of thye Fatjher you forget that God is also a God of justice and judgenment and that even the saints will face the judgement seat of Christ whuile the wicked face the great white throone judgement. Concentrating on only one trait ignores the rest of scripture

Of course God is a God of justice. The cross demonstrates that loudly and clearly. So no, I haven't ignore the rest of scripture. You have, since you picture Jesus as an anemic shepherd who cannot even keep all of the sheep given to Him by His Father.

 

[Hammster]

The parables of the kingdom told by the Lord and explained by him (in some cases the explanation is in the gospels) teach the faithful not to assume that they or any other person does know who is a weed and who is wheat, a good fish suitable to eat or a fish to be thrown away, and so forth. If the Lord teaches these things to the twelve apostles and to the disciples then the faithful will hear his voice and follow him. That is the nature of the sheep of his sheep fold.

I don't assume to know your position with Christ. I do know mine.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I don't assume to know your position with Christ. I do know mine.

A singular grace I suspect ...

 

[Hammster]

A singular grace I suspect ...

Not sure what you mean.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Not sure what you mean.

What I mean is that I have heard many say such things about themselves and it always seems to me that such knowledge can come only from some special grace - a gift of infallibility about one's own standing before God both now and for eternity - that is not the common lot of the faithful. Saint Bernadette of Lourdes was given a promise of happiness in the next life and that was most certainly a singular grace give to her so I presume that those who express such confidence have received a message from heaven to them from a heavenly messenger whose credibility cannot be doubted. ... or else they are very confident indeed in their interpretations of certain passages of holy scripture or some teaching of their pastors ... or perhaps some other source is the basis for their confidence ... all things considered it is a rare gift.

 

[Hammster]

God has spoken to me. It's called scripture. In it, there are promises. I believe them.

 

[MoreCoffee]

God has spoken to me. It's called scripture. In it, there are promises. I believe them.

I also believe the holy scriptures (all 73 books of the canonical holy scriptures) yet I am not confident that a personal view of one's own standing before God both now and for eternity is clearly laid out in any passage when the passage is read in conjunction with the whole teaching of Christ. I do not have an infallible interpretation to offer ... some evidently believe that they do.

 

[Hammster]

I also believe the holy scriptures (all 73 books of the canonical holy scriptures) yet I am not confident that a personal view of one's own standing before God both now and for eternity is clearly laid out in any passage when the passage is read in conjunction with the whole teaching of Christ. I do not have an infallible interpretation to offer ... some evidently believe that they do.

I'm justified by faith. I'm blessed that my sins aren't counted against me. Praise God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'm justified by faith. I'm blessed that my sins aren't counted against me. Praise God.

All of the faithful are made just by grace through faith and their sins are forgiven so not counted against them. How does one come to know one is among the faithful - apart from asserting it because there are passages in holy scripture that assert that the faithful receive such gifts as being made just and being sustained by God's grace etcetera?