Once saved always saved?

[Hammster]

There's more to add to a conversation. You actually have a conversation. One person says something, then the other.

And I am a single predestinarian.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What exactly do folk who use the expression "once saved always saved" mean by the expression and when do they think one is saved?

 

[Hammster]

What exactly do folk who use the expression "once saved always saved" mean by the expression and when do they think one is saved?

I don't use it because of its abuse. I've seen folks say that if someone said a prayer at 10, and REALLY REALLY meant it, they were saved, if if they live like hell as adults.

I'll use OJAJ, once justified, always justified.

Or ORAR., once regenerated, always regenerated.

 

[king of the unknown]

What exactly do folk who use the expression "once saved always saved" mean by the expression and when do they think one is saved?

If a man is in a flood and trying to survive when is he saved? Is it when he calls for help, when he finds help, when he receives help, or when he no longer need help? You could even break it down farther. I feel like to a degree all of these are correct and also important to survival. So we ask where does the saving actually happen or even better when does the man feel safe? I feel like all these factors directly connect to what we think of when we talk about being saved as a Christian.

A lot of the ideas are more view then actually real facts. For instance does the moment of salvation really matter compared to salvation itself. Though as a interesting discussion it is fine to ponder such idea but the moment that a hash divide appear I feel like then the sides are missing the point.

At the end I feel like a lot of the discussion has to do with how people feel about it.

If I am saved should I feel saved?

If I am saved why is life hard?

If I am saved why am I still here on Earth?

If I am saved why do I sin?

If I am saved why do I do this or that?

If I am saved why do I feel guilt or sad?

And there is many other questions people ask themselves every day. The inner struggle that often times doesn't have an answer or at least an answer we can touch or taste.

 

[Lamb]

And then He forsakes you?

No, but man can turn away. Scripture warns us about falling from faith. You see, you can't just dismiss parts of scripture because it doesn't fit into the box you want it to fit into. God's Word says that God will never forsake us so this is most certainly true. God's Word also warns that man can fall from faith and this is most certainly true. There are repeated warnings concerning this.

It's a Law Gospel issue. The Gospel says that God will never forsake us. The Law tells us that we can fall. You see, the Gospel part pertains to what God does and the Law points at us. It accuses.

And both are true.

 

[Hammster]

No, but man can turn away. Scripture warns us about falling from faith. You see, you can't just dismiss parts of scripture because it doesn't fit into the box you want it to fit into. God's Word says that God will never forsake us so this is most certainly true. God's Word also warns that man can fall from faith and this is most certainly true. There are repeated warnings concerning this.

It's a Law Gospel issue. The Gospel says that God will never forsake us. The Law tells us that we can fall. You see, the Gospel part pertains to what God does and the Law points at us. It accuses.

And both are true.

You are misusing law and gospel. The law tells us that we are incapable of following. The gospel tells us that Christ not only bore our sins, but that He lived the life we could not.

Also, Christ is the Good Shepherd. If someone truly saved could walk away, then in what way is He good?

 

[Lamb]

Ah, but you are ignoring what scripture clearly tells us, that we can fall away. You are too quick to blame God!! You blame God instead of the one at fault...and that is man. With salvation, God is praised and it's 100% His doing, with damnation, it's not God's fault, it's 100% man's fault. Therein lies what scripture states concerning Law and Gospel and that is no way a misuse but a proper distinction.

1 Corinthians 10:12New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

2 Peter 3:17New American Standard Bible (NASB)
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

Hebrews 3:12
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart [a]that falls away from the living God.

You are misusing law and gospel. The law tells us that we are incapable of following. The gospel tells us that Christ not only bore our sins, but that He lived the life we could not.

Also, Christ is the Good Shepherd. If someone truly saved could walk away, then in what way is He good?

 

[Hammster]

Ah, but you are ignoring what scripture clearly tells us, that we can fall away. You are too quick to blame God!! You blame God instead of the one at fault...and that is man. With salvation, God is praised and it's 100% His doing, with damnation, it's not God's fault, it's 100% man's fault. Therein lies what scripture states concerning Law and Gospel and that is no way a misuse but a proper distinction.

1 Corinthians 10:12New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

2 Peter 3:17New American Standard Bible (NASB)
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

Hebrews 3:12
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart [a]that falls away from the living God.

No one is saying that sheep are always obedient. But do we have a Shepherd that will let us walk away? If so, how is He good?

 

[Hammster]

I'll repeat this here. I'd be interested in an actual response to the points made.



We should also look at Jesus' frequent use of sheep. Every reference I've seen where we are likened to sheep indicates that this is a fixed group. From Jesus saying He lays down His life for His sheep, to the separation of sheep from goats. Nowhere does it say that we become sheep, or that we can go from being a sheep to a goat.

A shepherd that lets a sheep go is a bad shepherd. He does not respect the sheep's desires to walk away. In fact, it's someone of the nature of a sheep (we all, like sheep, have gone astray). So the shepherd brings it back. Isn't it safe to say that Jesus is a better shepherd to His sheep?

Also, we are called his children. Adopted children at that. I'm an adoptive parent. I will always love my adopted kids, no matter what. Am I a better adoptive parent than Jesus? And in Hebrews 12, it says that He disciplines those He loves. It never says He just lets them go.

Just some things to think about.

 

[psalms 91]

Hebrews chapter 6 makes it pretty clear that we can indeed walk away

 

[Hammster]

Hebrews chapter 6 makes it pretty clear that we can indeed walk away

Not at all.

 

[Alithis]

Hebrews chapter 6 makes it pretty clear that we can indeed walk away

i find the entire bible makes it rather clear ... if a person repents and turns to god and walks in obedience to him.. they are saved -if the continue traveling in faith they will arrive at gods house .. if a person repents of walking with god and goes the other way they will not arrive and gods house ...

 

[Hammster]

i find the entire bible makes it rather clear ... if a person repents and turns to god and walks in obedience to him.. they are saved -if the continue traveling in faith they will arrive at gods house .. if a person repents of walking with god and goes the other way they will not arrive and gods house ...

Are true believers "sheep"?

 

[Alithis]

Are true believers "sheep"?

hmmmmmm ... no .. people are sheep ..lost ones, found ones, nice ones, and naughty rebellious ones

 

[Hammster]

hmmmmmm ... no .. people are sheep ..lost ones, found ones, nice ones, and naughty rebellious ones

Sorry, but that's not biblical.

However, let me refine the question. Are believers Jesus' sheep?

 

[Alithis]

Sorry, but that's not biblical.

However, let me refine the question. Are believers Jesus' sheep?

yes the defining is better ( as in all the analogies it is biblical that sheep = people .. not always believing people . often "lost" unsaved people .)

but yes believers are sheep in the fold of the lord JEsus and as long as they abide in him following him in and out to pasture and back in to safety they remain in his safety.
but there are other folds which are not of him and are not obedient to him but follow other voices because they do not know him .

but is this going to be another one of those cases where a singular verse is used to build a case in opposition to what the whole bible states .. ? because i hold to the belief that what the entire bible says on any given topic is the doctrine thereof . and if you take the picture the entire bible portrays .. the unrepentant .. no matter what they prayed in the past .. do not inherit the kingdom of God .nor do those who become offended and refuse to forgive . nor do those whom the lord spoke to in the book of revelation- and he was speaking to the church (his sheep) when he warned he would spew them out of his mouth . the principle is very very clear to me .

 

[MoreCoffee]

If a man is in a flood and trying to survive when is he saved? Is it when he calls for help, when he finds help, when he receives help, or when he no longer need help? You could even break it down farther. I feel like to a degree all of these are correct and also important to survival. So we ask where does the saving actually happen or even better when does the man feel safe? I feel like all these factors directly connect to what we think of when we talk about being saved as a Christian.

A lot of the ideas are more view then actually real facts. For instance does the moment of salvation really matter compared to salvation itself. Though as a interesting discussion it is fine to ponder such idea but the moment that a hash divide appear I feel like then the sides are missing the point.

At the end I feel like a lot of the discussion has to do with how people feel about it.

If I am saved should I feel saved?

If I am saved why is life hard?

If I am saved why am I still here on Earth?

If I am saved why do I sin?

If I am saved why do I do this or that?

If I am saved why do I feel guilt or sad?

And there is many other questions people ask themselves every day. The inner struggle that often times doesn't have an answer or at least an answer we can touch or taste.

I am inclined to think that those who proclaim "once saved always saved" really mean that they feel saved and so want to feel assured that they will in fact be saved. Feeling saved is exactly the problem with the wicked in the last judgement passage from the gospel according to saint Matthew 25:31-46. They appear to have felt as saved as the righteous but they didn't do anything and not doing anything was precisely the problem that led to their condemnation.

 

[Hammster]

yes the defining is better ( as in all the analogies it is biblical that sheep = people .. not always believing people . often "lost" unsaved people .)

but yes believers are sheep in the fold of the lord JEsus and as long as they abide in him following him in and out to pasture and back in to safety they remain in his safety.
but there are other folds which are not of him and are not obedient to him but follow other voices because they do not know him .

but is this going to be another one of those cases where a singular verse is used to build a case in opposition to what the whole bible states .. ? because i hold to the belief that what the entire bible says on any given topic is the doctrine thereof . and if you take the picture the entire bible portrays .. the unrepentant .. no matter what they prayed in the past .. do not inherit the kingdom of God .nor do those who become offended and refuse to forgive . nor do those whom the lord spoke to in the book of revelation- and he was speaking to the church (his sheep) when he warned he would spew them out of his mouth . the principle is very very clear to me .

So we've established that we, His people, are His sheep. And it's more than one verse. In fact, we even have verses where we are His adopted children.

But back to the sheep.

What is the primary job of a shepherd?

 

[Hammster]

I am inclined to think that those who proclaim "once saved always saved" really mean that they feel saved and so want to feel assured that they will in fact be saved. Feeling saved is exactly the problem with the wicked in the last judgement passage from the gospel according to saint Matthew 25:31-46. They appear to have felt as saved as the righteous but they didn't do anything and not doing anything was precisely the problem that led to their condemnation.

The problem with the goats was that they act like sheep because they were not sheep. Their very nature was that of goats. You cannot change your nature.

 

[Alithis]

So we've established that we, His people, are His sheep. And it's more than one verse. In fact, we even have verses where we are His adopted children.

But back to the sheep.

What is the primary job of a shepherd?

your going to remove accountability for willful unrepentant disobedience . the sheppard sheppards ,, but the sheep must hear and follow . he said that too -if they don't then they won't end up at his place .