Once saved always saved?

[Hammster]

There's nothing in there that contradicts what I said.

 

[Josiah]

Why I Reject OSAS

Here is what I affirm instead of OSAS:


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


BOTH are equally true..... Apply the Gospel where appropriate to the person, apply the Law where appropriate to the person. Don't mix them. Don't misapply them. Don't water them both down until they seem to "agree."

HOW both this may 'crank out' is something I leave to MYSTERY (a fave word of Lutherans, lol)... ONLY God saves and ONLY God damns so only God NEEDS to know.

IMO, OSAS and all the other efforts to dismiss some of the above actually ends up creating a MESS and a horrible "Terror to the conscience" as Luther put it.




My half cent.



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

There's nothing in there that contradicts what I said.

Why do you expect to be contradicted?

 

[Hammster]

Why do you expect to be contradicted?

Because you seem to disagree with my view.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Because you seem to disagree with my view.

I state my own view and leave others to decide if it is the same as theirs or not.

 

[Hammster]

I state my own view and leave others to decide if it is the same as theirs or not.

So you quoted me because....?

 

[MoreCoffee]

So you quoted me because....?

Because I wanted feedback from you and because your brief post was insufficiently explanatory of your views to allow me to know what you believe and teach.

 

[Hammster]

Because I wanted feedback from you and because your brief post was insufficiently explanatory of your views to allow me to know what you believe and teach.

Then you should have asked.

 

[king of the unknown]

And then He forsakes you?

No it means God respects us. Allowing us to chose our own path. That is free will and free will can only exist if you have true options and not just an ultimatum.

 

[Hammster]

No it means God respects us. Allowing us to chose our own path. That is free will and free will can only exist if you have true options and not just an ultimatum.

Let's talk about this mysterious free will.

Are we ever slaves to sin, and if so, how do we get out of this slavery?

 

[king of the unknown]

Let's talk about this mysterious free will.

Are we ever slaves to sin, and if so, how do we get out of this slavery?

One doesn't just wake up one morning and boom suddenly your in chains. Sin is a very real problem. People are slaves to sin because they let sin take them into slavery. They let it happen and they choose to be slaves. Maybe years latter they feel like they don't have a choice but to start with we do choose. The addictive quality of sin is oddly absent from Christianity which is why even after giving our lives to God we are tormented by sin. We have a mixed nature do to the fall of man and are tempted into sin. With that being sad the seed of sin is still sown into us at birth but there is a difference between sinning/having sin and being a slave to sin. The term slave to sin isn't a metaphor it is literal. Most people have a sin (or sins) that they do compulsively. Sin is like a disease that slowly spreads throughout ones life (never satisfied with what it has and constantly intruding itself into every part of your life no matter how much you don't what it to.)

That is the difference between a slaves and a servants. God doesn't want slaves nor does he want us forced into believing in him (in fact I believe God will actively push people away from him to test to see if they actually believe in him at all). The Devil and his demons want to forces you (in any way shape or form) to become slaves. They want you to feel trapped and to be controlled while God wants you to choose him.

 

[Hammster]

One doesn't just wake up one morning and boom suddenly your in chains. Sin is a very real problem. People are slaves to sin because they let sin take them into slavery. They let it happen and they choose to be slaves. Maybe years latter they feel like they don't have a choice but to start with we do choose. The addictive quality of sin is oddly absent from Christianity which is why even after giving our lives to God we are tormented by sin. We have a mixed nature do to the fall of man and are tempted into sin. With that being sad the seed of sin is still sown into us at birth but there is a difference between sinning/having sin and being a slave to sin. The term slave to sin isn't a metaphor it is literal. Most people have a sin (or sins) that they do compulsively. Sin is like a disease that slowly spreads throughout ones life (never satisfied with what it has and constantly intruding itself into every part of your life no matter how much you don't what it to.)

That is the difference between a slave and a servant. God doesn't want slave nor does he want us forced into believing in him (in fact I believe God will actively push people away from him to test to see if they actually believe him at all). The Devil and his demons want to forces you (in any way shape or form) to become slaves. They want you to feel trapped and to be controlled while God wants you to choose him.

We are born into sin. We are born slaves to sin. You don't decide to be a slave. You are one.

Plus, if you are a slave, where's the freedom?

 

[king of the unknown]

We are born into sin. We are born slaves to sin. You don't decide to be a slave. You are one.

Plus, if you are a slave, where's the freedom?

I still stand by the idea that a "slave" to sin isn't some metaphor or spiritual jargon but a literal idea. We are born unto sin that is correct but the slavery is inertia. One in sin will continue in sin unless acted upon by another force. I simple disagree that sin and slavery to sin are the same thing. My biggest proof is that most of feel like we made the choice to sin rather then a requirement by law (or something like that). When we are freed from sin by God we feel free because we feel that the choices we made no longer destroy us. We are free from our past decisions. That is also why we feel guilt. Why would we feel guilt if we had no choice in what we did?

A slave can not save himself and a man that has done wrong can't change the past. Instead a judge must free him. A judge must forgive his action before he is free. Only a judge (a person of power and position over or representing the law that was broken) can decide the fate of those who deserve death.

 

[Hammster]

We should also look at Jesus' frequent use of sheep. Every reference I've seen where we are likened to sheep indicates that this is a fixed group. From Jesus saying He lays down His life for His sheep, to the separation of sheep from goats. Nowhere does it say that we become sheep, or that we can go from being a sheep to a goat.

A shepherd that lets a sheep go is a bad shepherd. He does not respect the sheep's desires to walk away. In fact, it's someone of the nature of a sheep (we all, like sheep, have gone astray). So the shepherd brings it back. Isn't it safe to say that Jesus is a better shepherd to His sheep?

Also, we are called his children. Adopted children at that. I'm an adoptive parent. I will always love my adopted kids, no matter what. Am I a better adoptive parent than Jesus? And in Hebrews 12, it says that He disciplines those He loves. It never says He just lets them go.

Just some things to think about.

 

[Hammster]

I still stand by the idea that a "slave" to sin isn't some metaphor or spiritual jargon but a literal idea. We are born unto sin that is correct but the slavery is inertia. One in sin will continue in sin unless acted upon by another force. I simple disagree that sin and slavery to sin are the same thing. My biggest proof is that most of feel like we made the choice to sin rather then a requirement by law (or something like that). When we are freed from sin by God we feel free because we feel that the choices we made no longer destroy us. We are free from our past decisions. That is also why we feel guilt. Why would we feel guilt if we had no choice in what we did?

A slave can not save himself and a man that has done wrong can't change the past. Instead a judge must free him. A judge must forgive his action before he is free. Only a judge (a person of power and position over or representing the law that was broken) can decide the fate of those who deserve death.

We sin because it's in our nature to sin. For us to do otherwise, we need a new nature.

 

[king of the unknown]

We should also look at Jesus' frequent use of sheep. Every reference I've seen where we are likened to sheep indicates that this is a fixed group. From Jesus saying He lays down His life for His sheep, to the separation of sheep from goats. Nowhere does it say that we become sheep, or that we can go from being a sheep to a goat.

A shepherd that lets a sheep go is a bad shepherd. He does not respect the sheep's desires to walk away. In fact, it's someone of the nature of a sheep (we all, like sheep, have gone astray). So the shepherd brings it back. Isn't it safe to say that Jesus is a better shepherd to His sheep?

Also, we are called his children. Adopted children at that. I'm an adoptive parent. I will always love my adopted kids, no matter what. Am I a better adoptive parent than Jesus? And in Hebrews 12, it says that He disciplines those He loves. It never says He just lets them go.

Just some things to think about.

Here is a question for you then: Why does God separate the goats from the sheep at judgement day? In fact why is there a judgement day at all? The whole goats and sheep thing is only talking about judgement day. Is Jesus just the shepherd to sheep that are born sheep and die sheep. Yet God has to separate the two. Meaning they are together. Anyway some of the verse with sheep talk about a wolf hiding among the how does that fit into the goats and sheep? I take it even farther and say Jesus himself is called a lamb. You can't just throw all the metaphors together out of context. They aren't some cryptic riddle. There are parallels but no where in the verses is it talking about salvation.

 

[Hammster]

Here is a question for you then: Why does God separate the goats from the sheep at judgement day? In fact why is there a judgement day at all? The whole goats and sheep thing is only talking about judgement day. Is Jesus just the shepherd to sheep that are born sheep and die sheep. Yet God has to separate the two. Meaning they are together. Anyway some of the verse with sheep talk about a wolf hiding among the how does that fit into the goats and sheep? I take it even farther and say Jesus himself is called a lamb. You can't just throw all the metaphors together out of context. They aren't some cryptic riddle. There are parallels but no where in the verses is it talking about salvation.

He's consistent with His use of sheep. They are always His.

Can we agree on that?

 

[king of the unknown]

He's consistent with His use of sheep. They are always His.

Can we agree on that?

Yes that is true but everything is God"s. nothing exist that God didn't create. Even in the old testament that God will be the God of both the Jew and the Gentiles. Even on the day of judgement the "people that God didn't know" still see him as their God.

 

[Hammster]

Yes that is true but everything is God"s. nothing exist that God didn't create. Even in the old testament that God will be the God of both the Jew and the Gentiles. Even on the day of judgement the "people that God didn't know" still see him as their God.

Are His people referred to as sheep? In other words, when He talks about sheep, is there any indication that He is referring to those who aren't His, such as hosts, wolves, etc?

 

[king of the unknown]

Are His people referred to as sheep? In other words, when He talks about sheep, is there any indication that He is referring to those who aren't His, such as hosts, wolves, etc?

Not to sound insulted or angry but I feel like I have nothing more to add to this conversation. I simply believe different then you and we are always going to see things our own ways. Though I did enjoy the discussions. I hope that you are doing well and that God blesses you in whatever you do. Have a great day. Maybe some other time we can talk more but I think at least in this conversation there is nothing left to be said on my part.

JOIN THE SINGLE PREDESTINATION SIDE, we have cookies, lol.

but seriously have a fantastic day.