that they may be one

NewCreation435

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John 17:20-24
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

What do you think that Jesus meant "that all of them may be one". verse 21.

How are we as a church doing that now?
 

faramir.pete

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He is clearly praying for unity. His prayer was that we, the believers, would be one in the same way that he, the father and the Spirit were in unity.

For me I believe he is referring to oneness of belief, that we would all believe the me thing. Now that seems like n impossible dream because to the casual observer it is apparent that Christians focus greatly upon the points of difference between us rather than those key things that unite us.

We focus on process and systems rather than the core beliefs that Jesus told us to focus upon - love God and love your neighbour as yourself. I think if we focussed upon the greatest commands that Jesus states and showed our love for one another then it would be clear to anyone observing that we are all one as he and the father are one.


Pete from Peterborough UK
 

Imalive

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John 17:20-24
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

What do you think that Jesus meant "that all of them may be one". verse 21.

How are we as a church doing that now?

Bad.
I talked about it with my ex yesterday that I was looking at these old revival movies and they just stopped because ppl had to build their own kingdoms and be busy with doctrins and making their own denominations, while first there was perfect unity thus revival as in Acts.
We have tried it in the past, contacted all evangelical leaders in a city as a start to have meetings together. Noone was interested.
There are movies on youtube from transformations, whole cities transformed, because they laid aside their pride and had united prayer meetings.
We had a really good church here. It still exists. A pentecostal church with churches all over the country. Then one of the leaders stood up against the leader. Ex said its on youtube and shameful to watch. The old guy from the first church just said in a meeting with the other one present that he was gonna die soon and he said I break that curse and let it come on your own head. Guess he forgot to break that cause he died soon after. Other guy had churches all over the country. Nothing but church splits with new leaders who took half of the ppl.
Devil sure has a great time with all these fleshly christians who are from Paul and Apollos. He doesnt even have to devour. They devour each other.
 
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Lamb

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Bad.
I talked about it with my ex yesterday that I was looking at these old revival movies and they just stopped because ppl had to build their own kingdoms and be busy with doctrins and making their own denominations, while first there was perfect unity thus revival as in Acts.
We have tried it in the past, contacted all evangelical leaders in a city as a start to have meetings together. Noone was interested.
There are movies on youtube from transformations, whole cities transformed, because they laid aside their pride and had united prayer meetings.
We had a really good church here. It still exists. A pentecostal church with churches all over the country. Then one of the leaders stood up against the leader. Ex said its on youtube and shameful to watch. The old guy from the first church just said in a meeting with the other one present that he was gonna die soon and he said I break that curse and let it come on your own head. Guess he forgot to break that cause he died soon after. Other guy had churches all over the country. Nothing but church splits with new leaders who took half of the ppl.
Devil sure has a great time with all these fleshly christians who are from Paul and Apollos. He doesnt even have to devour. They devour each other.

Do you really think there was perfect unity in the time of the apostles? If I recall, even Paul had to correct Peter. Paul wrote to the churches to instruct them (doctrine) because they needed correction.
 

Imalive

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Do you really think there was perfect unity in the time of the apostles? If I recall, even Paul had to correct Peter. Paul wrote to the churches to instruct them (doctrine) because they needed correction.

No with the outpouring on pentecost there was unity. They were together praying in one accord. Noone said something belonged to themselves. Not long after ppl said they were from Paul and Apollos. At least there was more unity than now.
 

NewCreation435

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Bad.
I talked about it with my ex yesterday that I was looking at these old revival movies and they just stopped because ppl had to build their own kingdoms and be busy with doctrins and making their own denominations, while first there was perfect unity thus revival as in Acts.
We have tried it in the past, contacted all evangelical leaders in a city as a start to have meetings together. Noone was interested.
There are movies on youtube from transformations, whole cities transformed, because they laid aside their pride and had united prayer meetings.
We had a really good church here. It still exists. A pentecostal church with churches all over the country. Then one of the leaders stood up against the leader. Ex said its on youtube and shameful to watch. The old guy from the first church just said in a meeting with the other one present that he was gonna die soon and he said I break that curse and let it come on your own head. Guess he forgot to break that cause he died soon after. Other guy had churches all over the country. Nothing but church splits with new leaders who took half of the ppl.
Devil sure has a great time with all these fleshly christians who are from Paul and Apollos. He doesnt even have to devour. They devour each other.

Is it any wonder that if Jesus wants us to be united that the devil wants to divide us? If being united would lead people to believe that the devil is interested in causing disunity, division and church splits. We need to wise up to his schemes
 

user1234

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Is it any wonder that if Jesus wants us to be united that the devil wants to divide us? If being united would lead people to believe that the devil is interested in causing disunity, division and church splits. We need to wise up to his schemes
Yes, and a big reason is the failure to remember...If God be for us, who can be against us?
Jesus prayed for our unity, then went to the cross and PAID for our unity.
And already Paul was saying this one is of Apollos, this one Peter, etc, this shouldnt be so. Sometimes I think God wants to be like Moe of the 3Stooges and clunk our heads together.
So far I've seen a few ppl with ideas to pray together...post in threads of encouragement, use this site to preach the good news, find ways to stand on a united front in order to help others come in, get saved, grow, and have God get the glory.
But its mostly fallen on deaf ears.
(Personally, Ive even tried with individuals...lets pray for and with each other, lets read scripture together, lets look for ways to minister to others together, lets lift up the Lord together, ask for revival and seek His guidance, see what He will do. Suddenly, no interest, I guess, idk, but that's ok, ppl are busy)

But now, instead of Paul, Apollos, Peter, ppl say Im Baptist, Im Lutheran, Im THIS kind of Lutheran, Im that, Im RomanCatholic and thats the one true church, so you all are dividers.
And if ppl arent labelling themSELVES, theyre labelling others. ... Oh, youre not a RomanCath? Then YOU must be one of those 'protestants'. Oy!
Paul wasnt a Calvinist.
He didnt follow Luther.
He wasnt Arminian, Armani-an, Calvin Klinester, or any other designer. (Though he might have been L'Oreál)
He was a believer in Jesus.
Saved by faith in His finished work , Hallelujah.
It's ok to belong to diff 'churches'... We're not robots, and we can get diff needs met and give diff gifts in our own respective 'churches/communities' if thats how God is calling us.
But here, if we insist on our denominationalisms, we're never really going to have the unity of THE faith that Jesus desires. Instead of uniting around the Word of God, we'll be insisting on 'My denomination says this, My catechism says that...
And some 'church' doctrines are ludicrous and even dangerous, and cause separation, not unity.
Maybe we all need to step up and start focussing more on the things in scripture that unite, like this threads title, or Hebrews 13:1, or Ephesians 2:8-9 etc, and look for ways to rejoice that Jesus saved us and invite others IN to Gods saving grace, instead of looking for ways that we might LOSE our salvation, and blocking others out.
 

Josiah

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John 17:20-24
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

What do you think that Jesus meant "that all of them may be one". verse 21.

How are we as a church doing that now?


SOME THOUGHTS AROUND UNITY AND DISAGREEMENT AMONG CHRISTIANS:



Faith:


ALL Christians are of one faith. It is faith in Christ as our Savior. ALL Christians share this same faith and are one in this faith as brothers and sisters, children of God, members of His Body. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ. And we are a part of His church by faith. IMO, one would not be a Christian without this faith in Christ - and all who have that faith in Christ are Christians. IMO, it's not rocket science.



Customs, Traditions, Teachings:


Of course, not all 2,000,000,000 Christians agree with all other 2,000,000,000 Christians about every viewpoint, custom, tradition, practice, policy, interpretation, application, etc. Duh. Never have. Never will. In some cases, it would be nice. In other cases, it matters not. BUT...



Unity:


IMO, the Bible and the Creed are correct and that there is ONE faith, ONE Lord. IS. That there IS one holy catholic church. Always has been. Always will be. Man cannot - CANNOT - change that reality, no matter how much ego and pride, no matter how much they condemn and rebuke, no matter how great their propensity to excommunicate each other, no matter how they try to institutionalize and/or politize Christianity. They CANNOT destroy His church. Soli Deo Gloria!


Concerning those teachings, the level of unity among the great majority of Christians is nothing less than AMAZING! Soli Deo Gloria! Physics prof of mine: "It all makes sense until you get to the edges, then it all gets nuts." LOL. It seems true in MANY things. But, in Christianity, I think we quickly discover that perhaps 90% of Christians agree on perhaps 90% of teachings. That's huge.


BUT it's not 100%. There are things Christians disagree about. Heck, I know a Christian who voted for Trump!!!! Not ALL Christians agree with ALL Christians on ALL matters. Everyone knows that. It's just how it is.... it's just how it's always been. IMO, much of the "problem" (if it is such) is because of our unwillingless to leave things where God does. Many have an uncontrollable urge to "explain" everything, to "connect the dots" to "fill in the blanks" to make it all "make sense." We think we have to supply all the "answers" to the questions we ourselves ask ourselves - even if God doesn't seem to think so. MOST of the things I disagree with among my FULL, UNseparated brothers and sisters in Christ is not because I think they are wrong but because I think they've overstepped what we can verify as true. In the words of my Greek Orthodox friend, "In our terrible, sinful pride - we abandoned mystery, dethroned God as the Lord of the Church, and made self the expert, bold even to tell God what is true." "Christians lost their ability to shut up." Christians pridefully think SELF has to make God make sense, SELF appointing SELF to eliminate any mystery and answer all questions, SELF appointing SELF to make God agree with the logic, philosophy and science of SELF so that God isn't wrong but agreeing with self. Luther said, "Humility is the foundation of all sound theology."



Love


IMO, the "unity" that Jesus prays for is not institutional (ONE denomination) or didactic (we all think and feel and say and opinionate identically about all matter).... I think it's a matter of heart, a matter of attitude and action. It is the hatred... the literal wars.... the hatred and disrespect..... the LACK OF LOVE and thus gross violation of the Great Commandment that Jesus is praying about. I think this is connected to Jesus' Great Command for ALL Christians (Catholics, Calvinists, Pentecostals, Mormons, Orthodox, Lutherans, Methodist) "Love one another.... by this will all the world know that you are my disciples, if you LOVE." He didn't say, "If you are all officially registered in one parish owned and operated by one denomination." He didn't say, "if you ALL agree with ALL others in ALL matters." He didn't say, "If you all worship identically and speak in tongues." IMO, Jesus is praying that LOVE among us evident.... fully aware that wasn't the case as He prayed this.



MY perspective....



- Josiah




.
 
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NewCreation435

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Our overwhelming characteristic as Christians should be love above all else. 1 Corinthians 13 makes it clear. I am to love my neighbor as myself. I am to love my enemies. I am not to take revenge myself. If we can't even behave ourselves when slighted on a forum like this from people who we actually have never met in person then what does that say about how far away from this command we have wandered?

I stop going to church for a long period of time and have been reluctant to get back into it because of how mean Christians can be. My wife was working and going to school, singing in the choir and helping with children's church and then told by some in the congregation that she wasn't doing enough. She has to sleep sometime. She was doing all she could.
My son is diabetic and was acting out because of ADHD and I was told to control my child and scolded for not being a good enough parent. Lies were told about me. My wife was accused of stealing supplies from the children's church room. It makes me want to throw up when I think about it. We can be so mean to each other and so ungodly. And the world sees this and says "See, they aren't really any different than those who are not saved." And we lose our testimony to a fallen world and God's name is dragged through the mud.
 

MennoSota

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Reading John 17 reveals the great truth of limited atonement for the elect. The entire chapter is a prayer for the elect and for unity of the elect.
There are wolves in the flock. One cannot expect unity with a wolf.
God knows who the wolves are and who the sheep are. Jesus prayer in John 17 is for the elect. My prayer is that the people posting in CH are a part of the elect and not wolves.
John 17:1-26
[1]After saying all these things, Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son so he can give glory back to you.
[2]For you have given him authority over everyone. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him.
[3]And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.
[4]I brought glory to you here on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.
[5]Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.
[6]“I have revealed you to the ones you gave me from this world. They were always yours. You gave them to me, and they have kept your word.
[7]Now they know that everything I have is a gift from you,
[8]for I have passed on to them the message you gave me. They accepted it and know that I came from you, and they believe you sent me.
[9]“My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.
[10]All who are mine belong to you, and you have given them to me, so they bring me glory.
[11]Now I am departing from the world; they are staying in this world, but I am coming to you. Holy Father, you have given me your name; now protect them by the power of your name so that they will be united just as we are.
[12]During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me. I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold.
[13]“Now I am coming to you. I told them many things while I was with them in this world so they would be filled with my joy.
[14]I have given them your word. And the world hates them because they do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world.
[15]I’m not asking you to take them out of the world, but to keep them safe from the evil one.
[16]They do not belong to this world any more than I do.
[17]Make them holy by your truth; teach them your word, which is truth.
[18]Just as you sent me into the world, I am sending them into the world.
[19]And I give myself as a holy sacrifice for them so they can be made holy by your truth.
[20]“I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me through their message.
[21]I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.
[22]“I have given them the glory you gave me, so they may be one as we are one.
[23]I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me.
[24]Father, I want these whom you have given me to be with me where I am. Then they can see all the glory you gave me because you loved me even before the world began!
[25]“O*righteous Father, the world doesn’t know you, but I do; and these disciples know you sent me.
[26]I have revealed you to them, and I will continue to do so. Then your love for me will be in them, and I will be in them.”
 

NewCreation435

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that's true that not everyone who comes to church or claims to be a believer is one. Maybe not even the majority of people
 

Albion

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John 17:20-24
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

What do you think that Jesus meant "that all of them may be one". verse 21.

How are we as a church doing that now
?

Apparently it would be God-pleasing if all mankind were in accord with Son of God. As for the churches themselves, most recognize that we are effectively of "one accord" so long as we recognize the invisible church, i.e. all true believers in Christ of whatever nationality, time, or place--or denomination. They understand this fact even though there are issues of lesser importance that divide them. But as for those others which reject the invisible church in favor of seeing the church of Christ as some membership organization like a club....
 

user1234

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Apparently it would be God-pleasing if all mankind were in accord with Son of God. As for the churches themselves, most recognize that we are effectively of "one accord" so long as we recognize the invisible church, i.e. all true believers in Christ of whatever nationality, time, or place--or denomination. They understand this fact even though there are issues of lesser importance that divide them. But as for those others which reject the invisible church in favor of seeing the church of Christ as some membership organization like a club....

This SOUNDS nice, but its wishful thinking at best, dangerous at worst, and in a sense, its a self-contradiction.
Who ANYWHERE ever was saved and thinks they are the only one? ... That they DONT recognize that they have brothers/sisters all over the world and through the ages ... i.e. The Invisible Church...members of The Body of Christ?!
That would seem to me to be an impossibility.
Like an atheist saying he believes in God.

No, of course there is an invisible church that all the saved are a part of, and Jesus is who holds us in His hand and holds us together, never to forsake us, never to lose our salvation. Once saved always saved!

It's the VISIBLE 'church' where the problem of disunity arises more, imo.
There's at least one denom that claims to be the One True Church....that automatically divides right there.
There is at least one denom that doesnt recognize another...
Not just a person here or there, but an entire group, (tho perhaps not a MAJOR label one) that doesnt recognize an entire other group (at least one) as being united at all, not fellow christians at all.
Thats a shame and I wish it werent so.

Yes, the Lord knows them that are His, and there are saved ppl, in churches/denominations, and NOT in churches, all over the world.
We have unity in THAT sense bc of the blood of Christ that bought us and the Holy Spirit who sealed us in Him.

But how is there unity in the VISIBLE church, just by SAYING there is?
Just like the atheist...He could SAY he's an atheist but he believes in God, and the friends in his group are atheists who DONT believe in God, but theyre all united because they all say theyre atheists. NO...THEYRE NOT.

Just like some denoms dont accept another, but there are still saved believers in that denom,

so also just bc a denom IS accepted by some, doesnt automatically mean theyre all saved.

Just like there are saved ppl among the UNaccepted denoms, there are also UNsaved ppl among the accepted ones, and just SAYING ''this or that is a christian denom so we all have unity with all their members and must consider them bros/sis in Christ'' doesnt make it so.

What I find is interesting, is most non-denom ppl will accept most denom ppl as bro/sis as long as they are believing in Jesus and His gift of salvation for them, iow, they are blood-bought, they have that unity.

But it's some of those IN some denoms that dont accept others who ARENT in a denom that seems to cause more disunity ... Thats been my experience.
 

MennoSota

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The invisible church (those who are the chosen and elect of God) is spread though out the spectrum of denominations...just as God has ordained. The unity is often revealed in the fire of tribulation and trial. In those moments the character of a wolf is quickly revealed as self-preservation gets center stage above the glory of God.
I observe my Coptic brothers and sisters who are dying for the faith in Egypt and I find unity in the bond of Christ, even though I consider some of their rituals to be peculiar and of little edification.
I suspect that in the heat of trials we would quickly find out who is a pretender at the CH and who it is that has genuinely been gifted faith by God's grace.
 

Albion

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Having basically agreed on the idea of the invisible church, and of true belief in Christ being evidenced by our lives and behavior, what do we say about the disagreements over doctrine and practice that divide the churches from each other? On the one hand, these issues are not inherently divisive of fellowship precisely because we do believe in the invisible church and what that means.

But OTOH, what do we say about the finger-pointing that goes on nevertheless? That is to say, is it right to lambast another Christian for believing in a non-essential if, at the same time, we say we believe in an inherent unity among believers on the basis of Faith in Christ as one's Lord and Savior?
 

Imalive

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Having basically agreed on the idea of the invisible church, and of true belief in Christ being evidenced by our lives and behavior, what do we say about the disagreements over doctrine and practice that divide the churches from each other? On the one hand, these issues are not inherently divisive of fellowship precisely because we do believe in the invisible church and what that means.

But OTOH, what do we say about the finger-pointing that goes on nevertheless? That is to say, is it right to lambast another Christian for believing in a non-essential if, at the same time, we say we believe in an inherent unity among believers on the basis of Faith in Christ as one's Lord and Savior?

Finger pointing should stop and is dumb cause always more point at yourself.


6 “Is this not the fast that I have chosen:
To loose the bonds of wickedness,
To undo the heavy burdens,
To let the oppressed go free,
And that you break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,
And that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out;
When you see the naked, that you cover him,
And not hide yourself from your own flesh?
8 Then your light shall break forth like the morning,
Your healing shall spring forth speedily,
And your righteousness shall go before you;
The glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.
9 Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer;
You shall cry, and He will say, ‘Here I am.’
“If you take away the yoke from your midst,
The pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness
,
10 If you extend your soul to the hungry
And satisfy the afflicted soul,
Then your light shall dawn in the darkness,
And your darkness shall be as the noonday.
11 The Lord will guide you continually,
And satisfy your soul in drought,
And strengthen your bones;
You shall be like a watered garden,
And like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail.
12 Those from among you
Shall build the old waste places;
You shall raise up the foundations of many generations;
And you shall be called the Repairer of the Breach,
The Restorer of Streets to Dwell In.
 

MennoSota

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Having basically agreed on the idea of the invisible church, and of true belief in Christ being evidenced by our lives and behavior, what do we say about the disagreements over doctrine and practice that divide the churches from each other? On the one hand, these issues are not inherently divisive of fellowship precisely because we do believe in the invisible church and what that means.

But OTOH, what do we say about the finger-pointing that goes on nevertheless? That is to say, is it right to lambast another Christian for believing in a non-essential if, at the same time, we say we believe in an inherent unity among believers on the basis of Faith in Christ as one's Lord and Savior?
Where we likely disagree is on what is non-essential.
For example, I believe the teaching of baptismal regeneration is contrary to the gospel and is therefore an essential disagreement. Where as I believe putting a statue or icon of the dying Jesus somewhere in the church building is a non-essential disagreement.
In essence, that which alters the gospel message of scripture should be opposed at all costs. Another example: Teaching indulgences for the release of souls from purgatory is a bastard teaching that alters the gospel. It must be opposed.
 

Josiah

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Having basically agreed on the idea of the invisible church, and of true belief in Christ being evidenced by our lives and behavior, what do we say about the disagreements over doctrine and practice that divide the churches from each other? On the one hand, these issues are not inherently divisive of fellowship precisely because we do believe in the invisible church and what that means.

But OTOH, what do we say about the finger-pointing that goes on nevertheless? That is to say, is it right to lambast another Christian for believing in a non-essential if, at the same time, we say we believe in an inherent unity among believers on the basis of Faith in Christ as one's Lord and Savior?


MY response....


1. Humility. Much of how we articulate and practice our Christianity is OUR stuff. I place a lot of emphasis on historic consensus (the ecumenical and long standing views and practices of Christians as a whole; that the Spirit guides US) but in the end, that too is OUR stuff. I'm of the view that we need to recapture a sense of humility and mystery, a willingness to say "this is MY opinion.... this makes sense to ME... but I don't speak for God and I'm not God's corrector." And a willingness to admit, "I don't know exactly how this cranks out, how to connect the dots." My Greek Orthodox friend shares, "we've lost our willingness to shut up." I agree. That does NOT at all imply that people cannot or should not ask questions and share their opinions and even embrace such with conviction and passion....(although perhaps not as dogma) only that it's accompanied with the realization that only God really knows.


2. Love. "Speak the truth but always with love." "By this will all know you are Christians, by your love." NOT "by your egotistical claim that your yourself alone is smart and knows and led by the Spriit and gets it." "NOT "by shouting louder than the next guy." NOT "by insisting everyone but you is wrong and stupid." Not even, "by dotting your 'i's' and crossing your 't's' correctly." Most of my family are Catholics. I disagree with them on a FEW (actually surprisingly few) points. And yup, I'm pretty sure I'm right and they are wrong, lol. But I LOVE them (and they me), and I accept them as my FULL, totally EQUAL, equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ, people for whom Christ died (as much as for me), people I'll be spending eternity with in heaven. I actually have high esteem for their denomination and I REJOICE that they are blessed by it. And it's pretty mutual. Now, I think they are wrong about a handful of stuff.... and Jesus will set them straight when they get to heaven and will make them all Lutherans. And that's soon enough for me. MEANWHILE..... we are brothers and sisters, clinging to Christ and mercy and grace and forgiveness, trying to wrap our PUNY fallen sinful brains around some stuff, trying to faithfully apply His Word to our lives and ministry. And we need each others prayers and embrace. Even when we think they are wrong about some things (and it's likely mutual).



My half cent.


- Josiah




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Josiah

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Expanding a bit on my post above....


I have an uncle (a Catholic) who uses this illustration: There is an area near where I grew up called "Restaurant Row." It's like a shopping center except it's ONLY restaurants - probably two dozen or so, all next to each other. Mostly ethnic ones: Indian, Greek, Japanese, Mexican...... you name it, and some specializing: BBQ, fish, vegetarian, etc. Now, these all stand side-by-side, all using a lot of the same ingredients from God but doing different things with them. My uncle likes some (Mexican, Italian, BBQ) and not others (Indian, Japanese) but he acknowledges that all are quality and healthy. Some might say they should close 23 of those and just have one REALLY big restaurant, with a big generic dining room with 500 identical tables, and have one thing one the menu labeled "Right." But it would be hard to come up with the receipe for that dish.... and lot would be lost in the deal.

I'm not sure I totally agree.... but I think there is some wisdom there. On the one hand, it probably would be good if all 2.2 billion Christians all totally agreed with ME on absolutely everything so that we're all eating one dish called "Right." But I'm not sure it's tragic and unforgiveable that Christianity has a bit in common with Restaurant Row - there's some value there. We just need to end the food fights. And the humility to admit that we came up with the recipes, we developed our menu.


Maybe? Kinda? Sorta? A little bit?



- Josiah
 

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The invisible church (those who are the chosen and elect of God) is spread though out the spectrum of denominations...just as God has ordained. The unity is often revealed in the fire of tribulation and trial. In those moments the character of a wolf is quickly revealed as self-preservation gets center stage above the glory of God.
I observe my Coptic brothers and sisters who are dying for the faith in Egypt and I find unity in the bond of Christ, even though I consider some of their rituals to be peculiar and of little edification.
I suspect that in the heat of trials we would quickly find out who is a pretender at the CH and who it is that has genuinely been gifted faith by God's grace.

Yes, to a certain degree thats true, however, we're not saved by how well we always respond to given situations, that would be works/self-righteousness, and many of us have failed in situations many times, and probably will again.
That doesnt mean we werent saved then, or arent now.
If someone is fruit-inspecting, or wanting to SEE something (sort of like in JAMES faith/works treatise, a popularly misused letter) then they might see a poor reaction (in their opinion) and want to judge the person as unsaved, but perhaps the REAL test there would be how to treat the person.....do we ostracize, ignore, cast aside, ex-communicate .....or do we seek to restore the person in humility, knowing we might not be so 'strong-in-the-faith' ourselves in a certain situation?

Until you really know a person...what led up to the position theyre in now, you cant really judge their reaction in a situation and call them unsaved.

The better gauge is when the bible says we shall know them (wolves) by their fruit, it's the fruit of doctrine (especially when writing/speaking is all there is to go on).
Are they trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ alone for salvation, and encouraging others to do the same?
Or is there some sort of religion, ceremony, law-keeping, works, ritual, etc, in practice or in doctrine, creeping in and pulling them from the liberty they once had (or could have) in Christ?

Theyre described as being DISGUISED as messengers of light ... Whats their message... Salvation by grace thru faith in Christ alone?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved?

Or is it, hmmmm not REALLY...You must obey this, confess that, perform this, stop that, start the other, etc?

And in sheeps clothing...
They look like sheep, they behave like sheep, theyre docile, theyre nice, they talk nicely, they dont fight, always get along (ahhh, but depending who you are, because they despise grace and the message of it)

They dont want you set free in Christ, mainly because they dont enter in themselves, thru Christ alone, or have been told you cant, thats not good enough, so they pass that message on to you, but they just seek who they may devour, and constantly cast judgement, preach fear, and point fingers at your behavior, as if theirs is ever so holy and righteous. Watch out, they'll seek to cast you out, not invite you in. If they pretend to, it will be on THEIR terms and standards, and theyll keep you guessing so you never know where you stand, or if this day, or that 'behavior' or just on their own whim, will be when the hammer falls.

They SEEM like sheep, they have a DISGUISED message, but a denial of the gospel and all that comes with it ... Grace, mercy, love, joy, forgiveness, fellowship, goodwill, not finger-pointing, judgement, condemnation and ex-communication.
Those are telltale signs, not necessarily a mighty response in trial.

But yes, its good for us to grow in grace, and the knowledge of Jesus, and if we notice a brother straying, not staying in the liberty of Christ, we should help him, encourage him with the love and grace and salvation of God, or if their struggling with some besetting thing, we should help them, making sure we're not judging them, bc we all have our own weaknesses and temptations that can harm us if we're not careful. So doing good as God lays out for us is right.

But thats more of a personal thing between a believer and God that comes thru sanctification, it's not the determiner of being justified freely by His grace.

Having that, (having Jesus) and our faith in that as our unity, moreso than our response to trial under fire, (but not purposefully having either one to the exclusion of the other) is ideal to aim for.

Sound doctrine and grace do compliment each other, but its sound doctrine, who and what we believe, that saves and unifies us in an eternal sense, not our responses to certain situations, good or bad.
(Btw, I know that you know that salvation is the gift of God and not based on our performance, but not everyone seems to believe that, and I was just making the distinction here, in the hopes of encouraging unity.) Let whosoever will take and drink of the water of life ... freely.
Believe in Jesus and be saved.
What greater love, what greater unity, than unity in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?
 
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