Okay, let's talk about predestination

MennoSota

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Jesus said
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. [John 8:31-38]
It's a biblical answer to the question that I raised. Is God powerful enough to give freedom to a creature?
Great!

God frees us from slavery to sin and makes us slaves to righteousness.

Romans 6:17-18
"But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness."

Verse 19
For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

MC, there are only two options. Slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. Slave of Satan or Slave of God.
Don't fool yourself into imagining you are a free man. You are not.
 

MoreCoffee

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Great!

God frees us from slavery to sin and makes us slaves to righteousness.

Romans 6:17-18
"But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness."

Verse 19
For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

MC, there are only two options. Slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. Slave of Satan or Slave of God.
Don't fool yourself into imagining you are a free man. You are not.

Jesus said he sets Christians free. He wasn't being tricky and deceptive. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
 

MennoSota

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Jesus said he sets Christians free. He wasn't being tricky and deceptive. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Did you read Romans 6?

Jesus did set, those whom God the Father gave him, free from sin. They were purchased by the blood of Jesus and are now bond-slaves of Christ.
You are never free, MC. The question is: Who owns you?
 

Josiah

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All do not have faith because God limits faith only to the elect. Therefore the atonement is only effectual for the elect, which means atonement is limited to the elect, which means it is not and cannot be universal.
Only one who believes that faith is generated and made effectual by human will can logically argue for unlimited atonement. You do not believe that humans generate their own faith. How can you, logically, make atonement unlimited? Your position makes no sense.


The question is not what is or is not "effective". The issue is whether God's grace embraces all and Christ died for all sins. Universal atonement simply embraces Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. I agree such is "ineffectual" (as you so ODDLY put it) without the Sola Fide but that' exactly why universal atonement is not the same as universalism.


No, I believe ALL aspects of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide are GIFTS. Each aspect. But that doesn't mean that where Sola Fide is absent, ergo the Sola Gratia and Solus Christus must also be absent - that's just illogical (and unbiblical). That makes no sense.



.
 

MoreCoffee

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Did you read Romans 6?

That's a rhetorical question right?

Jesus did set, those whom God the Father gave him, free from sin. They were purchased by the blood of Jesus and are now bond-slaves of Christ. You are never free, MC. The question is: Who owns you?

All I can say to your spin is I am glad that I don't have it.

Christians are friends of God and brothers (and sisters) of Jesus Christ. Paul liked to speak of himself as a bond slave and considering his past the thought encompassed by that designation is appropriate but Jesus calls us his friends and his brothers.
 

Imalive

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Let me posit a WHAT IF:

What if salvation worked exactly as free will Synergists claim it does.

GIVEN ASSUMPTIONS:
1. God has granted everyone the free will to accept or reject the gospel and God takes no active role in influencing your free will.
2. Some facts about God are self-evident from creation.
3. Hearing the 'Law' (to adopt our Lutheran host's terminology) educates us of our sin.
4. Hearing the 'Gospel' allows us to choose between the World and the Jesus Christ.
5. Jesus is still the only way to the Father.

Psalm 51:5-7 NASB
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6 Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being,
And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.
7 Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.​

Our first problem is original sin. Like King David in Psalm 51:5 we are tainted with sin from conception and birth. Like King David in Psalm 51:6-7 we need God to clean us in our innermost parts where God desires truth and can give us spiritual wisdom. There then is the rub, if God so loves our 'free will' then the choice to invite GOD to enter and save us must be our choice. That is the premise of this Synergistic what if.


ASSUMPTION 2: Some facts about God are self-evident from creation.

Romans 1:18-21 NASB
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.​

GOD says that we exercise our free will to choose to ignore God's "invisible attributes" and to choose to refuse to honor Him of give thanks. As a result, we no longer need to point any fingers of blame at Adam, it is our foolish heart that is darkened and we have earned God's wrath for our own ungodliness and unrighteousness. Our need for a savior is greater than ever, but the Synergistic God is a gentlemen, respecting our free will and waiting for an invitation.


ASSUMPTION 3: Hearing the 'Law' educates us of our sin.

Romans 7:7-13 NASB
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except [fn]through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “YOU SHALL NOT COVET.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

The Law opens our eyes to the sin we refused to see, but it cannot cure it. If fact, sin feeds on the law.
In my experience, the natural man calls this 'judgement' and then ...

John 3:19-21 NASB
19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”​

... flees the light for the shadows of the World. Since John raised the point, who naturally practices the truth: NO ONE (Romans 3:10-12)

We are more desperate than ever for the GOSPEL and a Savior, but the Synergystic God respects our free will and is waiting for an invitation.

ASSUMPTION 4: Hearing the 'Gospel' allows us to choose between the World and the Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.​

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.​

Here is the fatal flaw in the Synergysm model. Sinful Man will flee from the light, not draw towards it. Natural man will find the gospel foolishness. There is a 'god of this world' that means us harm and is actively blinding the minds of the lost.

So what should God do if, left to their natural fallen free will, no one chooses salvation?
It would certainly be JUST of God to damn all, but that does not seem to be his plan.

Inspire His kids to bind those blind making demons and pray they will see the Light and then share the gospel. 1 Timothy. Pray for all ppl.
 

MennoSota

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The question is not what is or is not "effective". The issue is whether God's grace embraces all and Christ died for all sins. Universal atonement simply embraces Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. I agree such is "ineffectual" (as you so ODDLY put it) without the Sola Fide but that' exactly why universal atonement is not the same as universalism.


No, I believe ALL aspects of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide are GIFTS. Each aspect. But that doesn't mean that where Sola Fide is absent, ergo the Sola Gratia and Solus Christus must also be absent - that's just illogical (and unbiblical). That makes no sense.



.
Universal atonement is the only means by which universalism exists.
All the Sola's function extremely well with limited atonement. You don't get to own them as your exclusive pet terms, Josiah.
The more important issue is whether scripture teaches that all sins of the entire world are atoned for by Jesus sacrifice.
Josiah, do you believe that all the sins of the entire world, past, present and future, were atoned for by Jesus sacrifice? A simple yes or no is all that is needed.
 

Imalive

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Who did John Calvin kill?
As far as I know, he shed the blood of no one.
The state executed heretics, which was far too common among all political groups at that time.

Martin Luther made far more embarrassing statements by modern standards ... however, neither Luther nor Calvin should be jusged by modern standards for their rhetoric. They were men of their age, not ours.

By that yardstick, you better rip most of the OT and anything by Paul out of your bible as well. Moses, Joshua, David and Paul actually killed people. Peter tried, but Jesus put the ear back on.

Why? Did Jesus say: Your fathers killed the prophets because that was normal at the time, so it doesnt matter? He was not even sorry.
Paul counted it rubbish what he learned when he was a murderer. He wrote the letters after his conversion.
 
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MennoSota

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That's a rhetorical question right?



All I can say to your spin is I am glad that I don't have it.

Christians are friends of God and brothers (and sisters) of Jesus Christ. Paul liked to speak of himself as a bond slave and considering his past the thought encompassed by that designation is appropriate but Jesus calls us his friends and his brothers.
It is not a spin. The text says what it is.
A spin is the 2000+ Roman catechism of mumbo-jumbo. That, is a spin.
 

MoreCoffee

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It is not a spin. The text says what it is.
A spin is the 2000+ Roman catechism of mumbo-jumbo. That, is a spin.

How odd your posts are. You wrote a dozen or more posts about "context, context, context" and now you have lost interest in context. It's odd.
 

MennoSota

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How odd your posts are. You wrote a dozen or more posts about "context, context, context" and now you have lost interest in context. It's odd.
Deflection away from scripture is your specialty, MC.
What does Romans 6 tell us about being slaves to either sin or to righteousness?
Does it bother you that humans are not free from a power greater than oneself?
 

Josiah

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Universal atonement is the only means by which universalism exists.

Wrong. They are unrelated.

Universal atonement embraces Sola Gratia - Solus Christus.

UniversalISM renounces/rejects Sola Fide.

True, justification requires all 3 but the lack of faith by no means remotely suggests the lack of God's grace or Christ's work.



Again....

Universal Atonement embraces/proclaims Sola Gratia - Solus Christus.

Universalism denies/rejects Sola Fide.

I accept universal atonement and reject universalism. I reject your premise that if faith is absent THEREFORE God's grace and Savior are absent. It's an absurd (and unbiblical) assumption on your part.
 

MennoSota

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Wrong. They are unrelated.

Universal atonement embraces Sola Gratia - Solus Christus.

UniversalISM renounces/rejects Sola Fide.

True, justification requires all 3 but the lack of faith by no means remotely suggests the lack of God's grace or Christ's work.



Again....

Universal Atonement embraces/proclaims Sola Gratia - Solus Christus.

Universalism denies/rejects Sola Fide.

I accept universal atonement and reject universalism. I reject your premise that if faith is absent THEREFORE God's grace and Savior are absent. It's an absurd (and unbiblical) assumption on your part.
By accepting universal atonement, you must reject election, total depravity, irresistible grace and the perseverance of the saints.
Election is not needed. The world is universally atoned for.
Total depravity is not needed. The world is universally atoned for.
Irresistible grace is not needed. The world is universally atoned for and resisting grace is the only unforgivable sin.
Perseverance of the saints is not needed. The world is universally atoned for. Just don't deny God's grace in the last breath and you're in like gold.
Universal and unlimited atonement, man's greatest get out of jail free card.
 

MoreCoffee

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Deflection away from scripture is your specialty, MC.

This IS scripture.

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. [John 8:31-38]

What does Romans 6 tell us about being slaves to either sin or to righteousness?

It tells me that there's a choice to be made: choose to be a servant of justice and do not choose to be a servant of sin. It is a choice which you make by deciding to whom ye yield yourselves because you are servants to the one you obey.

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. [Romans 6:15-23]​

Does it bother you that humans are not free from a power greater than oneself?

Context is important MennoSota. Jesus Christ our Lord taught us with these words

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. These things I command you, that ye love one another. [John 15:13-17]
 

atpollard

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Why? Did Jesus say: Your fathers killed the prophets because that was normal at the time, so it doesnt matter? He was not even sorry.
Paul counted it rubbish what he learned when he was a murderer. He wrote the letters after his conversion.
You are either grossly ignorant of the facts, or deeply prejudiced in selectively viewing them if you can see no fruit of the spirit in the events which unfolded surrounding the death for which Calvin is so unjustly accused.

Paul had to publicly confront Peter for his hypocracy as a result of the circumcision party. Will you also reject all of the theology of Peter for a post salvation act that meets with your modern moral disapproval?
 

MennoSota

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This IS scripture.

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. [John 8:31-38]



It tells me that there's a choice to be made: choose to be a servant of justice and do not choose to be a servant of sin. It is a choice which you make by deciding to whom ye yield yourselves because you are servants to the one you obey.

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. [Romans 6:15-23]​



Context is important MennoSota. Jesus Christ our Lord taught us with these words

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. These things I command you, that ye love one another. [John 15:13-17]

Indeed, context is key. If you look at the context of the scriptures you posted, you would see why you are wrong. But, you seem hellbent on being your own god who tells the creator whether or not you're going to take Him up on His offer.
This I know, I would rather be a servant in the house of God than a servant elsewhere or an independent contractor. "Oh that I might dwell in the house of God all the days of my life." I love being a bond-slave of Christ and so did all his apostles. My great cloud of witnesses were all servants of the Most High God.
 

MennoSota

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The monergist view on limited (particular) atonement versus universal atonement.
Matthew 1:21. “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
*John 10:11, 14-16, 26-29. “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.... I am the good shepherd, and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.... But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”
*Mark 10:45. “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
*Romans 5:18-19. “Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.”
*The inconsistent universalist and particular redemptionist both limit Christ’s death in some manner. The Arminian limits the power of Christ’s death to save, while the Calvinist limits the design of it.66 The Calvinist teaches that Christ’s death is of infinite value to God because Christ was the divine-human mediator. Christ’s death was sufficient to save every man, woman and child who ever lived. In fact, it was sufficient to save everyone on a thousand planets, if God so desired. What limits Christ’s death is that by God’s design and purpose Jesus died only for the elect, those chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world. His death is directed to and actually saves particular persons; not an indefinite mass of people or a hypothetical humanity. Christ offered a definite atonement. It is personal. He knows His own by name (Jn. 10:14).
**** The Arminian believes that Christ’s death guarantees the actual salvation of not even one person. The Arminian believes in a very limited atonement: an atonement that is weak and impotent to save. God is helpless and waits for the sinner to save himself by choosing Christ. The Father’s plan to save humanity has been defeated, because almost all of mankind has gone to hell. Christ shed His blood and suffered horrible tortures in vain for those who throughout eternity scorn and reject Him. The Holy Spirit has been overpowered and successfully resisted by the vast majority of people throughout history. If Arminianism is true, then God’s plan of redemption is a colossal failure. God simply could not get the job done. Can a view which presents Christ’s death as a failure be true? Should we believe in a theological system which presents God as mere puppet of man, as incompetent in achieving His own purpose? Arminianism presents a false picture of God. It is man-centered, a deadly hybrid between biblical Protestantism and humanism.
*https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/limitedatonement.html
 

Imalive

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The monergist view on limited (particular) atonement versus universal atonement.
Matthew 1:21. “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
*John 10:11, 14-16, 26-29. “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.... I am the good shepherd, and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.... But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”
*Mark 10:45. “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
*Romans 5:18-19. “Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.”
*The inconsistent universalist and particular redemptionist both limit Christ’s death in some manner. The Arminian limits the power of Christ’s death to save, while the Calvinist limits the design of it.66 The Calvinist teaches that Christ’s death is of infinite value to God because Christ was the divine-human mediator. Christ’s death was sufficient to save every man, woman and child who ever lived. In fact, it was sufficient to save everyone on a thousand planets, if God so desired. What limits Christ’s death is that by God’s design and purpose Jesus died only for the elect, those chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world. His death is directed to and actually saves particular persons; not an indefinite mass of people or a hypothetical humanity. Christ offered a definite atonement. It is personal. He knows His own by name (Jn. 10:14).
**** The Arminian believes that Christ’s death guarantees the actual salvation of not even one person. The Arminian believes in a very limited atonement: an atonement that is weak and impotent to save. God is helpless and waits for the sinner to save himself by choosing Christ. The Father’s plan to save humanity has been defeated, because almost all of mankind has gone to hell. Christ shed His blood and suffered horrible tortures in vain for those who throughout eternity scorn and reject Him. The Holy Spirit has been overpowered and successfully resisted by the vast majority of people throughout history. If Arminianism is true, then God’s plan of redemption is a colossal failure. God simply could not get the job done. Can a view which presents Christ’s death as a failure be true? Should we believe in a theological system which presents God as mere puppet of man, as incompetent in achieving His own purpose? Arminianism presents a false picture of God. It is man-centered, a deadly hybrid between biblical Protestantism and humanism.
*https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/limitedatonement.html

Nonsense. One guys prays every day. Almost a whole country gets saved. All of a sudden they were all elected?
 

MennoSota

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Nonsense. One guys prays every day. Almost a whole country gets saved. All of a sudden they were all elected?
I have no idea what you are referring to. However, the word "almost" catches my attention...
I also was unaware that prayer had such magical, genie-like powers.
 

Imalive

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