Proof texting

[MoreCoffee]

God gave teachers etc. to the Body, but the Holy Spirit guides you into all truth and you have no need that anyone teaches you. So if anything a preacher says is false, the Holy Spirit will show you by using the Word. The Bereans even checked if what Paul preached was in the Scriptures.
Never follow any leader or doctrin blindly. That's how false teaching can come in. I read a warning prophecy about that from the fifties. Nowadays w all these false teachers you have to fix your eyes on Jesus to see who is who in the zoo. He said: first they will teach good Biblical stuff. Then the ppl will trust them and then the heresies come in, but ppl are like: isn't this so and so? He's good, so this must be good too and they swallow false teaching. You see it w Jews too. If they listen to the intelligent rabbi's who understand the Scriptures and you dumb ordinary folk don't, they reject Jesus. But if they read the Scriptures for themselves they find Jesus. There's a lot of testimonies of Jews who got saved like that. They thought for themselves.

But indeed there's also ppl who are mad at church leaders, so they leave church and reject any authority and go make their own gospel and dont go to church anymore and no leader protects em against wolves.

In Greek the passage that says "He will guide you into all truth" has you in the plural so the promise is to the community not to each individual in it.

John 16:4-15 But I have said these things to YOU so that when their hour comes YOU may remember that I told YOU about them. 'I did not say these things to YOU from the beginning, because I was with YOU. [5] But now I am going to him who sent me; yet none of YOU asks me, "Where are you going?" [6] But because I have said these things to YOU, sorrow has filled YOUR hearts. [7] Nevertheless, I tell YOU the truth: it is to YOUR advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to YOU; but if I go, I will send him to YOU. [8] And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgement: [9] about sin, because they do not believe in me; [10] about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and YOU will see me no longer; [11] about judgement, because the ruler of this world has been condemned. [12] 'I still have many things to say to YOU, but YOU cannot bear them now. [13] When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide YOU into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to YOU the things that are to come. [14] He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to YOU. [15] All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to YOU​

All the red YOUs are plural because they are for all the disciples as a community. That is important to know. Jesus didn't promise "all truth" to individuals. He promised all truth to the church (the body of Christ).

You referred to the Bereans but remember that they were Jews who didn't trust Paul's message and even after checking not all believed despite what their old testament scriptures said. The Bereans soon turned against Paul when the Thessalonians Jews came to them and told them what a trouble maker Paul was (in their opinion).

Everybody thinks for themselves but some are lazy and prefer to follow a strong leader. Following a leader can end with heresy. Check the facts. Test the doctrines. Look at holy scripture and look at what past generations taught about it. Use everything available to you and then decide.

 

[atpollard]

In Greek the passage that says "He will guide you into all truth" has you in the plural so the promise is to the community not to each individual in it.

John 16:4-15 But I have said these things to YOU so that when their hour comes YOU may remember that I told YOU about them. 'I did not say these things to YOU from the beginning, because I was with YOU. [5] But now I am going to him who sent me; yet none of YOU asks me, "Where are you going?" [6] But because I have said these things to YOU, sorrow has filled YOUR hearts. [7] Nevertheless, I tell YOU the truth: it is to YOUR advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to YOU; but if I go, I will send him to YOU. [8] And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgement: [9] about sin, because they do not believe in me; [10] about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and YOU will see me no longer; [11] about judgement, because the ruler of this world has been condemned. [12] 'I still have many things to say to YOU, but YOU cannot bear them now. [13] When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide YOU into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to YOU the things that are to come. [14] He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to YOU. [15] All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to YOU​

All the red YOUs are plural because they are for all the disciples as a community. That is important to know. Jesus didn't promise "all truth" to individuals. He promised all truth to the church (the body of Christ).

Just out of curiosity, how would the red YOUs have been different if Jesus was promising "all truth" to each individual and making that promise to a group of Apostles?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Just out of curiosity, how would the red YOUs have been different if Jesus was promising "all truth" to each individual and making that promise to a group of Apostles?

In Greek plural and singular forms existed just as they once did in English. To accomplish what you've indicated the passage would read thus.

John 16:4-15 But I have said these things to thee so that when their hour comes thou may remember that I told thee about them. 'I did not say these things to thee from the beginning, because I was with thee. [5] But now I am going to him who sent me; yet none of thee asks me, "Where are thou going?" [6] But because I have said these things to thee, sorrow has filled thine hearts. [7] Nevertheless, I tell thee the truth: it is to thine advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to thee; but if I go, I will send him to thee. [8] And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgement: [9] about sin, because they do not believe in me; [10] about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and thou will see me no longer; [11] about judgement, because the ruler of this world has been condemned. [12] 'I still have many things to say to thee, but thou cannot bear them now. [13] When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide thee into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to thee the things that are to come. [14] He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to thee. [15] All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to Thee.​

The difference between the individualistic passage is that it uses the singular pronoun to make the address direct and personal while the plural form makes the address communal. Jesus spoke to the group as a community and did so deliberately.

 

[kiwimac]

Proof texting involves taking a passage of scripture out of it's context, it's societal milieu and trying to force it into a particular doctrinal eisegesis.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Proof texting involves taking a passage of scripture out of it's context, it's societal milieu and trying to force it into a particular doctrinal eisegesis.

quite right. It's using a text (almost always without proper respect for its context in the scriptures and in the culture of the times it was written and its purpose for being written) and applying it as a "proof" for some doctrine that it does not in fact support.

 

[Pedrito]

Post #21:

Jesus didn't promise "all truth" to individuals. He promised all truth to the church (the body of Christ).

Pedrito wonders how the church (the body of Christ) can know what the “all truth” is, if none of its individual members knows what that “all truth” is.

Pedrito guesses the implication is that different bits of the truth are scattered among some individuals, and if the right individuals put their heads together (identifying and excluding individuals who have only their own ideas), that the “all truth” will somehow be agreed upon.

The idea put forward in Post #21 (see quote above) seems to be somewhat insincere, when coming from someone whose church, after nearly 2,000 years, is still trying to determine what its final set of doctrines will be.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Post #21:


Pedrito wonders how the church (the body of Christ) can know what the “all truth” is, if none of its individual members knows what that “all truth” is.

Pedrito guesses the implication is that different bits of the truth are scattered among some individuals, and if the right individuals put their heads together (identifying and excluding individuals who have only their own ideas), that the “all truth” will somehow be agreed upon.

The idea put forward in Post #21 (see quote above) seems to be somewhat insincere, when coming from someone whose church, after nearly 2,000 years, is still trying to determine what its final set of doctrines will be.

BY recording the truth as it is discovered. It is discovered in the holy scriptures and in apostolic tradition. The process of discovery appears to be a long process. Each generation discovers new things. Sometimes the discoveries are profound and then they are recorded in church councils.

 

[Pedrito]

Post #21 [emphasis added]:

In Greek the passage that says "He will guide you into all truth" has you in the plural so the promise is to the community not to each individual in it.
John 16:4-15 But I have said these things to YOU so that when their hour comes YOU may remember that I told YOU about them. 'I did not say these things to YOU from the beginning, because I was with YOU. [5] But now I am going to him who sent me; yet none of YOU asks me, "Where are you going?" [6] But because I have said these things to YOU, sorrow has filled YOUR hearts. [7] Nevertheless, I tell YOU the truth: it is to YOUR advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to YOU; but if I go, I will send him to YOU. [8] And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgement: [9] about sin, because they do not believe in me; [10] about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and YOU will see me no longer; [11] about judgement, because the ruler of this world has been condemned. [12] 'I still have many things to say to YOU, but YOU cannot bear them now. [13] When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide YOU into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to YOU the things that are to come. [14] He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to YOU. [15] All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to YOU

All the red YOUs are plural because they are for all the disciples as a community. That is important to know...

==============================================================================================

So "YOU" really means "You-As-a-Community-But-Not-You-As-Individuals", or "You-As-a-Community-But-Not-You-Individually".

Let’s see where that leads.

==============================================================================================

John 16:4-15: [4] But I have said these things to YOU [but not you as individuals] so that when the hour comes YOU [not as individuals] may remember that I told YOU [not you individually] about them. 'I did not say these things to YOU [as individuals] from the beginning, because I was with YOU [but not each of you personally].
[5] But now I am going to him who sent me; yet none [[not one]] of YOU [as a whole group] asks me, "Where are you going?"
[6] But because I have said these things to YOU [but not you as individuals], sorrow has filled YOUR [not your individual] hearts.
[7] Nevertheless, I tell YOU [not you as individuals] the truth: it is to YOUR [not to your individual] advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to YOU [as individuals]; but if I go, I will send him to YOU [collectively only].
[8] And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgement:
[9] about sin, because they do not believe in me;
[10] about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and YOU [as a group] will see me no longer;
[11] about judgement, because the ruler of this world has been condemned.
[12] 'I still have many things to say to YOU [not to you as individuals, but], but YOU [as a group (individually you're OK)] cannot bear them now.
[13] When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide YOU [only as a group, not as individuals] into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to YOU [collectively only] the things that are to come.
[14] He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to YOU [not each of you personally].
[15] All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to YOU [but not you as individuals].


Does that make sense?

What does the Reader think?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Nope. YOU is plural and means you-all. Thee is singular you and means you-individually. No need to make it into more than it is. The passage uses plural YOU and that affects its application and meaning. It isn't a good move to take it as meaning you-individually when it is you-all. So the promise is The Spirit will guide you-all into all the truth rather than The Spirit will guide you-individually into all the truth. The former promises community wisdom and knowledge of all the truth the latter would promise wisdom and knowledge of all the truth to individuals. That's easy to understand isn't it? The community knows it all as the Spirit leads but individuals very likely know only some of the truth.

Post #21 [emphasis added]:


==============================================================================================

So "YOU" really means "You-As-a-Community-But-Not-You-As-Individuals", or "You-As-a-Community-But-Not-You-Individually".

Let’s see where that leads.

==============================================================================================

John 16:4-15: [4] But I have said these things to YOU [but not you as individuals] so that when the hour comes YOU [not as individuals] may remember that I told YOU [not you individually] about them. 'I did not say these things to YOU [as individuals] from the beginning, because I was with YOU [but not each of you personally].
[5] But now I am going to him who sent me; yet none [[not one]] of YOU [as a whole group] asks me, "Where are you going?"
[6] But because I have said these things to YOU [but not you as individuals], sorrow has filled YOUR [not your individual] hearts.
[7] Nevertheless, I tell YOU [not you as individuals] the truth: it is to YOUR [not to your individual] advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to YOU [as individuals]; but if I go, I will send him to YOU [collectively only].
[8] And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgement:
[9] about sin, because they do not believe in me;
[10] about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and YOU [as a group] will see me no longer;
[11] about judgement, because the ruler of this world has been condemned.
[12] 'I still have many things to say to YOU [not to you as individuals, but], but YOU [as a group (individually you're OK)] cannot bear them now.
[13] When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide YOU [only as a group, not as individuals] into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to YOU [collectively only] the things that are to come.
[14] He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to YOU [not each of you personally].
[15] All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to YOU [but not you as individuals].


Does that make sense?

What does the Reader think?

 

[atpollard]

Does that make sense?
What does the Reader think?

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 NASB
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith [fn]by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of [fn]healing [fn]by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the [fn]effecting of [fn]miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the [fn]distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

1 Corinthians 12:27-31 NASB
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has [fn]appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then [fn]miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of [fn]miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.
And I show you a still more excellent way.

That's what I think.

 

[Pedrito]

The author of the series of posts including Post #29, promoted the idea that the “YOU” in John 16:4-15 had a collective meaning instead of individual application.

When Pedrito actually substituted that collective meaning of “YOU” into that John 16:4-15 passage, the result was ludicrous. (see Post #21 and Post #28)

==============================================================================================

However, that did not deter the author of Post #21 from then employing one of the techniques that Pedrito has pointed out elsewhere – common techniques that are used defensively by people when confronted with evidence against a stand of theirs (or an organisation’s) that is overwhelming (cannot be logically contested).

In this case, the technique is that of simply ignoring the evidence, pretending it does not exist, and simply restating the discredited proposition.

One of the aims of that stonewalling technique is demoralisation – demoralising the “opposition” so that they will give up. Actually, demoralisation is a form of mental abuse – mental torture, if you will.

(Pedrito suggests that that exercise is unbecoming of anyone claiming loyalty to the Mighty God and the Wonderful Saviour.)

==============================================================================================

So, can we not predict with a high degree of confidence, that that Poster will continue to use underhanded techniques in the defence of and the promotion of the Organisation to which he gives his loyalty? Including his proposition in Post #21?

Can we not predict he will continue do that in spite of the penetrating Scriptures presented by atpollard in Post #30?

(Even if the employed technique simply morphs into silent non-acknowledgement?)

==============================================================================================

But Pedrito cannot help but find that possibility truly lamentable, for a number of reasons.

 

[user1234]

Hi Pedrito

Im not a very well-educated person (I know, shocking, right? Lol)
And I dont know anything about psychology or techniques in conversation, I just know sometimes something doesnt sit quite right, and Im thinking 'Deception/Manipulation Alert'.

I highlighted and re-quoted this ↓ part of post#31 because it summed up so well how Im suspecting or guessing goes on so often...I especially agree about the 'mental abuse aspect. And the (last line!) Amen! Thumbs up and kudos. Please thank Pedrito for me.

Re-quote from Pedrito in post#31. ↓
~~~In this case, the technique is that of simply ignoring the evidence, pretending it does not exist, and simply restating the discredited proposition.

One of the aims of that stonewalling technique is demoralisation – demoralising the “opposition” so that they will give up. Actually, demoralisation is a form of mental abuse – mental torture, if you will.

(Pedrito suggests that that exercise is unbecoming of anyone claiming loyalty to the Mighty God and the Wonderful Saviour.)~~~↑

 

[Imalive]

The author of the series of posts including Post #29, promoted the idea that the “YOU” in John 16:4-15 had a collective meaning instead of individual application.

When Pedrito actually substituted that collective meaning of “YOU” into that John 16:4-15 passage, the result was ludicrous. (see Post #21 and Post #28)

==============================================================================================

However, that did not deter the author of Post #21 from then employing one of the techniques that Pedrito has pointed out elsewhere – common techniques that are used defensively by people when confronted with evidence against a stand of theirs (or an organisation’s) that is overwhelming (cannot be logically contested).

In this case, the technique is that of simply ignoring the evidence, pretending it does not exist, and simply restating the discredited proposition.

One of the aims of that stonewalling technique is demoralisation – demoralising the “opposition” so that they will give up. Actually, demoralisation is a form of mental abuse – mental torture, if you will.

(Pedrito suggests that that exercise is unbecoming of anyone claiming loyalty to the Mighty God and the Wonderful Saviour.)

==============================================================================================

So, can we not predict with a high degree of confidence, that that Poster will continue to use underhanded techniques in the defence of and the promotion of the Organisation to which he gives his loyalty? Including his proposition in Post #21?

Can we not predict he will continue do that in spite of the penetrating Scriptures presented by atpollard in Post #30?

(Even if the employed technique simply morphs into silent non-acknowledgement?)

==============================================================================================

But Pedrito cannot help but find that possibility truly lamentable, for a number of reasons.

Technique?
Everybody does that.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing and hearing and hearing of a doctrin of a church.

 

[MoreCoffee]

In Greek the passage that says "He will guide you into all truth" has you in the plural so the promise is to the community not to each individual in it.

John 16:4-15 But I have said these things to YOU so that when their hour comes YOU may remember that I told YOU about them. 'I did not say these things to YOU from the beginning, because I was with YOU. [5] But now I am going to him who sent me; yet none of YOU asks me, "Where are you going?" [6] But because I have said these things to YOU, sorrow has filled YOUR hearts. [7] Nevertheless, I tell YOU the truth: it is to YOUR advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to YOU; but if I go, I will send him to YOU. [8] And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgement: [9] about sin, because they do not believe in me; [10] about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and YOU will see me no longer; [11] about judgement, because the ruler of this world has been condemned. [12] 'I still have many things to say to YOU, but YOU cannot bear them now. [13] When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide YOU into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to YOU the things that are to come. [14] He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to YOU. [15] All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to YOU​

All the red YOUs are plural because they are for all the disciples as a community. That is important to know. Jesus didn't promise "all truth" to individuals. He promised all truth to the church (the body of Christ).

You referred to the Bereans but remember that they were Jews who didn't trust Paul's message and even after checking not all believed despite what their old testament scriptures said. The Bereans soon turned against Paul when the Thessalonians Jews came to them and told them what a trouble maker Paul was (in their opinion).

Everybody thinks for themselves but some are lazy and prefer to follow a strong leader. Following a leader can end with heresy. Check the facts. Test the doctrines. Look at holy scripture and look at what past generations taught about it. Use everything available to you and then decide.

The author of the series of posts including Post #29, promoted the idea that the “YOU” in John 16:4-15 had a collective meaning instead of individual application.

When Pedrito actually substituted that collective meaning of “YOU” into that John 16:4-15 passage, the result was ludicrous. (see Post #21 and Post #28)

==============================================================================================

However, that did not deter the author of Post #21 from then employing one of the techniques that Pedrito has pointed out elsewhere – common techniques that are used defensively by people when confronted with evidence against a stand of theirs (or an organisation’s) that is overwhelming (cannot be logically contested).

In this case, the technique is that of simply ignoring the evidence, pretending it does not exist, and simply restating the discredited proposition.

One of the aims of that stonewalling technique is demoralisation – demoralising the “opposition” so that they will give up. Actually, demoralisation is a form of mental abuse – mental torture, if you will.

(Pedrito suggests that that exercise is unbecoming of anyone claiming loyalty to the Mighty God and the Wonderful Saviour.)

==============================================================================================

So, can we not predict with a high degree of confidence, that that Poster will continue to use underhanded techniques in the defence of and the promotion of the Organisation to which he gives his loyalty? Including his proposition in Post #21?

Can we not predict he will continue do that in spite of the penetrating Scriptures presented by atpollard in Post #30?

(Even if the employed technique simply morphs into silent non-acknowledgement?)

==============================================================================================

But Pedrito cannot help but find that possibility truly lamentable, for a number of reasons.

The fact is that the red YOUs in the first quote really are plural in Greek. It is just a fact. And knowing that they are plural does matter. It helps a reader to be alert to the communal setting of the teaching given by the Lord Jesus Christ in the passage and it helps the reader to understand that the promises are directed to the group rather than to individuals in it. Greek has a singular form for "you" which in the KJV is written as "Thee" and "thou" which are singular forms of "you" in the English of the 1600s. In today's English "three" and "thou" are antiquated forms that are no longer in use except when somebody reads old books like the KJV or poems from centuries ago. There's no "technique" being used when I point to a fact. The fact just is a fact. The only technique in use is the one used in the second quote which tries to divert the reader from the fact and pretend that the fact in the first quote is a "technique" in a plan to deceive people. It is just a fact. No plan and no technique to deceive it is just a fact of the Greek in John 16:4-15.

 

[Imalive]

The fact is that the red YOUs in the first quote really are plural in Greek. It is just a fact. And knowing that they are plural does matter. It helps a reader to be alert to the communal setting of the teaching given by the Lord Jesus Christ in the passage and it helps the reader to understand that the promises are directed to the group rather than to individuals in it. Greek has a singular form for "you" which in the KJV is written as "Thee" and "thou" which are singular forms of "you" in the English of the 1600s. In today's English "three" and "thou" are antiquated forms that are no longer in use except when somebody reads old books like the KJV or poems from centuries ago. There's no "technique" being used when I point to a fact. The fact just is a fact. The only technique in use is the one used in the second quote which tries to divert the reader from the fact and pretend that the fact in the first quote is a "technique" in a plan to deceive people. It is just a fact. No plan and no technique to deceive it is just a fact of the Greek in John 16:4-15.

Yes my ex always says that too, so it's true. It's plural. So God says the same thing to individuals LOL. We have that very often. He has a message and 2 or three say: hey God told me that this week too!

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes my ex always says that too, so it's true. It's plural. So God says the same thing to individuals LOL. We have that very often. He has a message and 2 or three say: hey God told me that this week too!

Yes, individuals read the message (or hear it read) but the message is for the group, the body, rather than for an individual in the group. That is why Christians usually do not say "Hey! God told me that all of you need to listen to me because I have all knowledge and all wisdom.". An occasional chap may say something like that but the majority of Christians would know that the chap's claim is not true.

 

[atpollard]

Looking at John 16:4-15 in isolation (as they have been presented here), it seems to me that the question of whether the "you" is singular or plural and applies to the individual believer or the collective body of Christ seems a speck beside the LOG that Jesus was speaking the words to Apostles and Disciples who knew him when he was alive about partial knowledge, and soon to pass events, that would open the doors to additional knowledge ... but nothing in verses 4-15 suggests that what he said to them applies to us.

Has anything been presented that I missed where Jesus says that these specific promises for those who knew him on earth apply to future generations?

 

[Imalive]

Looking at John 16:4-15 in isolation (as they have been presented here), it seems to me that the question of whether the "you" is singular or plural and applies to the individual believer or the collective body of Christ seems a speck beside the LOG that Jesus was speaking the words to Apostles and Disciples who knew him when he was alive about partial knowledge, and soon to pass events, that would open the doors to additional knowledge ... but nothing in verses 4-15 suggests that what he said to them applies to us.

Has anything been presented that I missed where Jesus says that these specific promises for those who knew him on earth apply to future generations?

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
prooftext. this was not to the 12 disciples.

 

[user1234]

Hi Pedrito

Im not a very well-educated person (I know, shocking, right? Lol)
And I dont know anything about psychology or techniques in conversation, I just know sometimes something doesnt sit quite right, and Im thinking 'Deception/Manipulation Alert'.

I highlighted and re-quoted this ↓ part of post#31 because it summed up so well how Im suspecting or guessing goes on so often...I especially agree about the 'mental abuse aspect. And the (last line!) Amen! Thumbs up and kudos. Please thank Pedrito for me.

Re-quote from Pedrito in post#31. ↓
~~~In this case, the technique is that of simply ignoring the evidence, pretending it does not exist, and simply restating the discredited proposition.

One of the aims of that stonewalling technique is demoralisation – demoralising the “opposition” so that they will give up. Actually, demoralisation is a form of mental abuse – mental torture, if you will.

(Pedrito suggests that that exercise is unbecoming of anyone claiming loyalty to the Mighty God and the Wonderful Saviour.)~~~↑

Clearing up any possible misunderstanding, as I re-read my post, just thought Id clarify (not that it seems to matter to many ppl around here what I say or what I mean by it anyway), but I'll try it anyway ... This following sentence from my post above→
and Im thinking 'Deception/Manipulation Alert'.
was not directed at Pedrito, but at the example in AGREEMENT with Pedrito re: the deceptive practices/techniques some ppl employ, both written and spoken to manipulate dialogue and sometimes other ppl.
Hope Pedrito didnt take offense to my original post. Hope Pedrito lets him know. uppydogeyes:

 

[MoreCoffee]

Looking at John 16:4-15 in isolation (as they have been presented here), it seems to me that the question of whether the "you" is singular or plural and applies to the individual believer or the collective body of Christ seems a speck beside the LOG that Jesus was speaking the words to Apostles and Disciples who knew him when he was alive about partial knowledge, and soon to pass events, that would open the doors to additional knowledge ... but nothing in verses 4-15 suggests that what he said to them applies to us.

Has anything been presented that I missed where Jesus says that these specific promises for those who knew him on earth apply to future generations?

But we (meaning us today) like to read Jesus' speech and apply the promise of another helper to ourselves. It's an important part of Christian belief to think that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to indwell us all (meaning the community). The speech is long, it starts in chapter 14 and goes to chapter 17. Very few Christians would be willing to have those chapters treated as a message for the disciples of 2,000 years ago but not for us now.