The washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit

[user1234]

Its funny how a certain antagonist or 2 and perpetrator/initiator of flaming is given not a single word of correction for it, not a word about how Jesus would act and they should act like Jesus, but I defend myself IN RESPONSE, and Im told how I should act like Jesus (with a totally taken-out-of-context scripture reference, btw). VERY interesting.

 

[Lamb]

Its funny how a certain antagonist or 2 and perpetrator/initiator of flaming is given not a single word of correction for it, not a word about how Jesus would act and they should act like Jesus, but I defend myself IN RESPONSE, and Im told how I should act like Jesus (with a totally taken-out-of-context scripture reference, btw). VERY interesting.

It's also interesting how some of our flamers here on the site refuse to take responsibility for their own words but instead want to do finger pointing at others.

 

[user1234]

Water is part of baptism in normal circumstances so it's okay to say "water baptism" and there used to be mikvahs in Judaism and they are called baptisms in English bible translations so I guess it is okay to say "other baptisms" however holy scripture says that for us "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." [Ephesians 4:4-6]

If youre referring to baptism in water, why not say so for clarity? If youre referring to other baptism(s), say that, too. God is not confused about His own Word, but obviously ppl have different interpretations of scripture, and MANY are being twisted or taken out of context in these threads, so it helps to clarify, and ppl who dont want to be clear may be betraying a hidden agenda, or perhaps their denomination wont allow them to be clear, idk, meanwhile, Ephesians4:5 is a classic example of a verse that ppl often take out of context or put an incorrect meaning on they dont seem to understand themselves.

IMO, that's irrelevant for Christians.... Yes, for JEWS there WERE other baptisms (at least 3 others) but none of these were ever Christian ones. There are baptisms in Hinduism too but these have never been Christian ones. For Christians, there is ONE Baptism. That's what the Bible specifically, literally, verbatim states. "There is one baptism." Ephesians 4:5


Now there are only and exclusively 3 possibilities related to the Holy Spirit for that ONE (and only one) baptism that exists in Christianity....

1. The only baptism that exists in Christianity is water only and doesn't involve the Holy Spirit at all.
2. The only baptism that exists in Christianity is Holy Spirit only and doesn't involve water in any way.
3. The only baptism that exists in Christianity is both water and the Holy Spirit.

There is no other possibility. Which is the "ONE BAPTISM?"







We had this discuss in the now-closed thread. Again, yet again my friend, one more time - the "Means of Grace" can deliver the gifts of God (The Holy Spirit, regeneration, faith, justification, etc.) but they are not the Savior. The Bible says, "My Word does not return to Me void but accomplishes all for which I sent it." Same with all the means of grace ("Tools in the hands of the Carpenter"). If I send you a Christmas gift and the mail man delivers it, is it a gift from me or from the mailman? If a carpenter uses a hammer to build a house, did the hammer build the house or did the carpenter?

OF COURSE, Jesus ALONE is the one, only and all-suffient Savior.... OF COURSE, we are justified by Grace because of Jesus received by faith. OF COURSE, it's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. But that does not mandate that God's only choice for giving us that is to just ZAP us out of the clear blue sky with no context, no one ministering to us, no Sunday School teachers, no Pastors, no parents ever speaking of Jesus, no missionaries, no evangelists, no VBS - because God would be rendered impotent to gift us if any of that is done. It seems to ME that while God CAN just zap someone (John the Baptist believed before he was even born), God usually works via means, tools - which is why He tells us to spread the Good News, to go, to baptize, to teach.... It's why Paul evangelized, it's why Jesus preached.



Soli Deo Gloria



- Josiah

The little mailman story is cute for telling about delivering postcards, but it makes for a bad analogy. The GIFT we're talking about here, is salvation...eternal life...the shed blood, death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ for our sins. The gift of God Himself, and we receive that gift by faith.
You often seem to say that, and then disqualify it by adding Yeah But, God has this or that means of working...we have to do this or that...etc. Then you set up a strawman arguement and accuse ppl of putting restrictions and forbidden things on God and use those things to try to tear ppl down with them. That shouldnt be. Meanwhile, despite the protests,.....John3:5 is NOT about water-baptism, the discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus is about salvation. God...JESUS...saving us.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If you're referring to baptism in water, why not say so for clarity? If you're referring to other baptism(s), say that, too. God is not confused about His own Word, but obviously ppl have different interpretations of scripture, and MANY are being twisted or taken out of context in these threads, so it helps to clarify, and ppl who don't want to be clear may be betraying a hidden agenda, or perhaps their denomination wont allow them to be clear, idk, meanwhile, Ephesians4:5 is a classic example of a verse that ppl often take out of context or put an incorrect meaning on they don't seem to understand themselves.

I am referring to the one baptism that's in Ephesians 4:5.

 

[Imalive]

I am referring to the one baptism that's in Ephesians 4:5.

Ah finally! We all do, so we all agree and can close all these threads.

 

[user1234]

It's also interesting how some of our flamers here on the site refuse to take responsibility for their own words but instead want to do finger pointing at others.

If a someone personally initiates and attacks someone else (flames), then the person attacked should have a right to defend themself without being accused of flaming, yes? Flamers SHOULD take responsibilty for flaming. I already took responsibility for RESPONDING IN DEFENSE and admit it publicly. Show me where I INITIATED a PERSONAL attack on someone, I will be happy to address it and discuss it openly with the complainant.
Discussing doctrine, pointing out false teaching and practice, isn't personal flaming...its against the doctrine and practice, not the person. Saying 'I want to baptize YOUR baby' or 'I hope YOU never have children' is a PERSONAL attack. I'm guessing most decent ppl, christian or not, can see the difference, no?

 

[user1234]

I am referring to the one baptism that's in Ephesians 4:5.

Great, thats your complete statement, and it clears up nothing. What is it about Ephesians4:5 that you are referring to.

Ah finally! We all do, so we all agree and can close all these threads.

Yay! :cheer::clap2::smlove2::kiss::tea:Except.............Who is the 'we all',
and what is it the 'we all' agree on. :friends:

 

[MoreCoffee]

Great, thats your complete statement, and it clears up nothing. What is it about Ephesians4:5 that you are referring to.

Ephesians 4:5 says that there is one baptism. The verse doesn't say one "water baptism" nor does it say one "spirit baptism" it just says one baptism because Paul didn't know of anything called "water baptism" nor of anything called "spirit baptism". He simply didn't know of any such thing. For Paul and all the writers of the new testament there is baptism and it is about water and the Spirit.

 

[Imalive]

-

 

[user1234]

Ephesians 4:5 says that there is one baptism. The verse doesn't say one "water baptism" nor does it say one "spirit baptism" it just says one baptism because Paul didn't know of anything called "water baptism" nor of anything called "spirit baptism". He simply didn't know of any such thing. For Paul and all the writers of the new testament there is baptism and it is about water and the Spirit.

Thats what you were taught, therefore, thats what you believe.
You're allowed, but it's faulty teaching and you were taught wrong.
It's that teaching, and your teaching it to others as if its fact, that I disagree with.
What is at issue is mainly what has always been at issue .... Salvation by grace thru faith alone, versus the RomanCatholic denominations false teaching of works-righteousness.
You demonstrate that Romes teaching on Ephesians4:5, as well as your teaching from John3, must include water-baptism, and must be included as a necessity for salvation, thereby nullifying salvation by grace thru faith alone.

Btw, pulling a 6-word verse out of context isn't a very good way to try to make a point, let alone a doctrine. It's popular, though.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Let's return to thinking and writing about Titus 3:5.

 

[user1234]

Let's return to thinking and writing about Titus 3:5.

Why?

 

[Josiah]

Let's return to thinking and writing about Titus 3:5.

IMO, it means that our justification (narrow) - our regeneration status if you prefer - is totally, completely, entirely God's doing, without anything from us. God gives life (physical and spiritual).... neither is synergistic on the part of the dead one.

But this verse too suggests God performs this miracle of life typically via means (one is mention - the washing of regeneration, the water that gives the second birth) used by the Holy Spirit for His purposes. IMO, God typically uses certain MEANS (and yes there's water involved) to GIVE us our physical life (doesn't have it, witness the VIRGIN birth of Jesus) and God typically uses certain MEANS (and yes, there may be water involved) to GIVE us our spiritual life (doesn't have, witness John the Baptist believing before he was born).


Thank you.


- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why?

Because this thread is about Titus 3:5 and because we've already agreed that you see Ephesians 4:5 one way and I see it differently and we're not going to agree about it so let's stop fighting about it and get on with discussing "And he saved us, not by works of justice that we had done, but, in accord with his mercy, by the washing of regeneration and by the renovation of the Holy Spirit, whom he has poured out upon us in abundance, through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we may become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." [Titus 3:5-7]

 

[TurtleHare]

Let's return to thinking and writing about Titus 3:5.

Titus 3 has always been about baptism being God doing that work up until the revival groups decided they needed to split up baptism into different groups because they wanted their children to have to make a decision for Jesus and give their hearts to him to make satisfaction for the forgiveness of sins that should have been freely given.

 

[atpollard]

I am pretty sure that Ephesians 4:5 is building on the same theme as Ephesians 2:11-22 NASB

11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.​

The emphasis on the repetition of 'one' is that there is only one path to God and all are drawn to God by that same path. It is a variation on the theme "the ground is all level at the foot of the cross". Every member of the body is equal because every member of the body of Christ was chosen, saved and redeemed exactly the same way. God paid ALL for each and every sinner redeemed. The exact same Holy Spirit (third person of the triune godhead) sealed every believer as a deposit guaranteeing that Christ would return to claim what was His.

Ephesians 4:5 doesn't make your point, any point that divides based on baptism. Rather it refutes your point. The point of Ephesians ... pretty much all of Ephesians ... is that which unites us is infinite compared to that which might seek to divide us.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I am pretty sure that Ephesians 4:5 is building on the same theme as Ephesians 2:11-22 NASB

11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.​

The emphasis on the repetition of 'one' is that there is only one path to God and all are drawn to God by that same path. It is a variation on the theme "the ground is all level at the foot of the cross". Every member of the body is equal because every member of the body of Christ was chosen, saved and redeemed exactly the same way. God paid ALL for each and every sinner redeemed. The exact same Holy Spirit (third person of the triune godhead) sealed every believer as a deposit guaranteeing that Christ would return to claim what was His.

Ephesians 4:5 doesn't make your point, any point that divides based on baptism. Rather it refutes your point. The point of Ephesians ... pretty much all of Ephesians ... is that which unites us is infinite compared to that which might seek to divide us.

Just my 2 cents.

Having one baptism does not divide - even people who claim two (or more) baptisms still have one baptism and it's the one mentioned in Ephesians 4:5.