the meaning of Baptism

[Imalive]

Not true. By age 6 months, children have been observed lying. You, the parent, want them baptized to feed your poor theology, but children don't care.

No my kids wanted to get baptized but they have to wait til they're 12. They accepted Jesus offer w 5 when they understood it. They were even refused to take the meal in the church of my mom that I visited. It makes absolutely no sense. They say you can be baptized if you understand it and follow Him. They do. Nope. Tradition says nope. But the other tradition says meal yes cause the kids of Jews had the Pascha. Whatever. I have nothing to say so we wait til 12.

 

[MennoSota]

But it doesn't say they had to be 12 either. That's also just a tradition. 5 or so makes sense. My son wanted to convert his 3 y o brother when he was 5, saying he had to confess he was a sinner now!

That's true. This issue is left in God's hands. He says that the saints were chosen from before the foundation of the world. He says that salvation is by grace, apart from any of our works (insert infant baptism here). I must trust God and believe that he is more than capable of being gracious to my children should he decide to take the life of my children. It's all God, nothing of our doing.

 

[Imalive]

That's true. This issue is left in God's hands. He says that the saints were chosen from before the foundation of the world. He says that salvation is by grace, apart from any of our works (insert infant baptism here). I must trust God and believe that he is more than capable of being gracious to my children should he decide to take the life of my children. It's all God, nothing of our doing.

Well I'm an evangelical, so my family has no free will. I just claim em. Me and my house.

 

[MennoSota]

No my kids wanted to get baptized but they have to wait til they're 12. They accepted Jesus offer w 5 when they understood it. They were even refused to take the meal in the church of my mom that I visited. It makes absolutely no sense. They say you can be baptized if you understand it and follow Him. They do. Nope. Tradition says nope. But the other tradition says meal yes cause the kids of Jews had the Pascha. Whatever. I have nothing to say so we wait til 12.

This is where the real baptism is done by God when he adopts humans. The reality is that the choice for that adoption was made before the foundations of the world was laid. The time of that baptism by the Spirit is entirely God's, not ours.
The outward expression can wait. It is just an outward testimony to the community.
The bigger problem is when parents push their kids to say "the prayer" and then push their kids to be baptized. This happened to my pastor. He wasn't saved when he was baptized by his church. Because of that he later was baptized as a believer.

 

[Imalive]

This is where the real baptism is done by God when he adopts humans. The reality is that the choice for that adoption was made before the foundations of the world was laid. The time of that baptism by the Spirit is entirely God's, not ours.
The outward expression can wait. It is just an outward testimony to the community.
The bigger problem is when parents push their kids to say "the prayer" and then push their kids to be baptized. This happened to my pastor. He wasn't saved when he was baptized by his church. Because of that he later was baptized as a believer.

Yes then they shouldn't have baptized him and forcing to say a prayer is bad too. In the Bible it was immediately. They repented and got baptized. Look! Here's water!
Nowadays we have to wait til the church rents the local pool for a day.

 

[Josiah]

You are inferring from silence what is not shared.

True, the text says NOTHING about the age of everyone in the household, much less that all of them were over the age of "X" (whatever age that is).

But IMO there's a bigger issue here: Some are imposing a RESTRICTION (or perhaps a whole long list of them) all from silence.... none of these can be found anywhere stated in Scripture.

The Bible says to love. Never does it say, "But only those who have celebrated their "X" birthday". I think it would be wrong to add restrictions, from silence, to the Great Commandment to love. I think the same generally holds to the Great Commission. The Bible gives no restrictions (age or otherwise) to who can be taught or baptized. Or consider the Bible says to go and make disciples of all nations... now, I suppose someone could create some restriction out of silence ("BUT not anyone who lives in Africa!") but that's a restriction from silence- nowhere does the bible say, "But not anyone who lives in Africa." I don't think PEOPLE should mandate restrictions from silence....



Pax Christi



- Josiah




.

 

[Josiah]

Yes then they shouldn't have baptized him and forcing to say a prayer is bad too. In the Bible it was immediately. They repented and got baptized. Look! Here's water!
Nowadays we have to wait til the church rents the local pool for a day.

Go visit a Lutheran church....

 

[MennoSota]

Yes then they shouldn't have baptized him and forcing to say a prayer is bad too. In the Bible it was immediately. They repented and got baptized. Look! Here's water!
Nowadays we have to wait til the church rents the local pool for a day.

Do you think some ever were adopted away from a water source...

 

[MennoSota]

True, the text says NOTHING about the age of everyone in the household, much less that all of them were over the age of "X" (whatever age that is).

But IMO there's a bigger issue here: Some are imposing a RESTRICTION (or perhaps a whole long list of them) all from silence.... none of these can be found anywhere stated in Scripture.

The Bible says to love. Never does it say, "But only those who have celebrated their "X" birthday". I think it would be wrong to add restrictions, from silence, to the Great Commandment to love. I think the same generally holds to the Great Commission. The Bible gives no restrictions (age or otherwise) to who can be taught or baptized. Or consider the Bible says to go and make disciples of all nations... now, I suppose someone could create some restriction out of silence ("BUT not anyone who lives in Africa!") but that's a restriction from silence- nowhere does the bible say, "But not anyone who lives in Africa."


- Josiah




.

Right.
If a child is aborted, s/he cannot have any baptism, yet we believe that God's grace is extended to them. Do we have any biblical evidence? No.
This is where God telling us that we were chosen before the foundation of the world comes in and gives us hope.
I have two nephews and a niece who never could express a faith in God before God ordained their life to end on earth, yet I believe, as David believed, that I will one day see them again in heaven.

 

[Imalive]

Go visit a Lutheran church....

Do they have an in built swimming pool? Some churches do. They take the podium away and whoop there's a swimming pool underneath it. I think it's the baptists.

 

[MennoSota]

Do they have an in built swimming pool? Some churches do. They take the podium away and whoop there's a swimming pool underneath it. I think it's the baptists.

It's called a jacuzzi...

 

[Imalive]

Hm, Jesus waited til He was 30. I'll have some patience w my kids.

 

[Josiah]

Hm, Jesus waited til He was 30. I'll have some patience w my kids.

His was also a JEWISH Baptism of Repentance. You can wait all you want, you'll NEVER be able to have this for your kids because the Jews stopped doing this in the Second Century.

But if you are going to do it like Jesus, you'll need to go to the Near East and find the place where He was baptized (and that's not known - a few different locations are claimed) and you'll need to find a Jewish Hebrew Prophet to do it.

 

[Josiah]

True, the text says NOTHING about the age of everyone in the household, much less that all of them were over the age of "X" (whatever age that is).

But IMO there's a bigger issue here: Some are imposing a RESTRICTION (or perhaps a whole long list of them) all from silence.... none of these can be found anywhere stated in Scripture.

The Bible says to love. Never does it say, "But only those who have celebrated their "X" birthday". I think it would be wrong to add restrictions, from silence, to the Great Commandment to love. I think the same generally holds to the Great Commission. The Bible gives no restrictions (age or otherwise) to who can be taught or baptized. Or consider the Bible says to go and make disciples of all nations... now, I suppose someone could create some restriction out of silence ("BUT not anyone who lives in Africa!") but that's a restriction from silence- nowhere does the bible say, "But not anyone who lives in Africa."


- Josiah


.

If a child is aborted, s/he cannot have any baptism

I don't see how that justifies creation a restriction out of silence to forbid those who haven't been aborted from baptism?

Where is this age restriction found in Scripture, this "must have attained the age of X before we can baptism and teach?"

I have two nephews and a niece who never could express a faith in God before God ordained their life to end on earth, yet I believe, as David believed, that I will one day see them again in heaven.

I'm with you on that, but I'm lost as to how that means we are forbidden from baptizing and teaching those under the age of X (whatever age that is)?

If you believe God can bless those who had no opportunity for baptism and teaching, why believe that God cannot bless those who do have such an opportunity?

 

[Imalive]

His was also a JEWISH Baptism of Repentance. You can wait all you want, you'll NEVER be able to have this for your kids because the Jews stopped doing this in the Second Century.

But if you are going to do it like Jesus, you'll need to go to the Near East and find the place where He was baptized (and that's not known - a few different locations are claimed) and you'll need to find a Jewish Hebrew Prophet to do it.

But that was what they did in Acts 2 too. Repent and be baptized. Wonder if there were kids. Babies can't repent though.

 

[MennoSota]

I don't see how that justifies creation a restriction out of silence to forbid those who haven't been aborted from baptism?

Where is this age restriction found in Scripture, this "must have attained the age of X before we can baptism and teach?"





I'm with you on that, but I'm lost as to how that means we are forbidden from baptizing and teaching those under the age of X (whatever age that is)?

If you believe God can bless those who had no opportunity for baptism and teaching, why believe that God cannot bless those who do have such an opportunity?

I never said it was forbidden. What I said is that the teaching whereby an infant is saved by baptism is created out of thin air by humans. Some Reformed churches will baptize an infant as a dedication of the parents to raise the child to know God through reading God's word and through biblical obedience to God's word. This is perfectly fine, in my opinion. My disagreement is with infant baptism as a means of salvation, which is what the church at Rome teaches, as well as the ELCA and LC Wisconsin synod. As to the Missouri Synod, I have not checked.
Physical water baptism has nothing to do with God's adoption of his elect.

 

[Josiah]

But that was what they did in Acts 2 too. Repent and be baptized. Wonder if there were kids. Babies can't repent though.

Actually, Acts says NOTHING about ANYONE repenting before being Baptized (and even if it did, it would have no significance unless you beleive we are to ignore the teaching of the Bible and substitute instead the customs/traditions/examples that happened to be recorded in the NT).

And remember, the word "kai" (and) ONLY connects. The word in no way whatsoever even remotely implies order. We see this all over Scripture. It's true in English too. I can say "I had fish and chips for dinner last night" but it doesn't mean I consumed them in that order. I can say, "I got up, went to the bathroom, showered, got ready, got dressed, drank way too much coffee, ate an English muffin, pet the bunny, kissed my wife and went to work." That is a 100% accurate statement. But I didn't did do them in that order. And it would be wrong to FORBID any to kiss their wife before they pet their bunny - just because I used "and" the way I did. That's a horrible misuse of grammar and horrible hermaneutics.

And of course, Matthew 28:19-20 places Baptism before teaching so by your rubric, one would need to become a Christian and repent BEFORE they were taught anything about God or sin or repentance because baptism comes BEFORE teaching if "and' mandates sequence.

 

[Imalive]

Actually, Acts says NOTHING about ANYONE repenting before being Baptized (and even if it did, it would have no significance unless you beleive we are to ignore the teaching of the Bible and substitute instead the customs/traditions/examples that happened to be recorded in the NT).

And remember, the word "kai" (and) ONLY connects. The word in no way whatsoever even remotely implies order. We see this all over Scripture. It's true in English too. I can say "I had fish and chips for dinner last night" but it doesn't mean I consumed them in that order. I can say, "I got up, went to the bathroom, showered, got ready, got dressed, drank way too much coffee, ate an English muffin, pet the bunny, kissed my wife and went to work." That is a 100% accurate statement. But I didn't did do them in that order. And it would be wrong to FORBID any to kiss their wife before they pet their bunny - just because I used "and" the way I did. That's a horrible misuse of grammar and horrible hermaneutics.

And of course, Matthew 28:19-20 places Baptism before teaching so by your rubric, one would need to become a Christian and repent BEFORE they were taught anything about God or sin or repentance because baptism comes BEFORE teaching if "and' mandates sequence.

Baptism is connected to receiving the gospel. Cornelius heard the Word, they all believed, then they all got baptized. Baptism is a symbol of dying and getting raised w Christ. If a baby can immediately a few days after being born die and rise w Christ it's no problem. A lot of ppl though aren't even saved as adults or they have become atheists after having been forced to go to church as a kid, yet they were baptized as a baby. Then they didn't die and rise w Christ and if they convert then they have to get baptized.

 

[Josiah]

Baptism is connected to receiving the gospel.

Yes. But there is there is not prohibition from baptizing and teaching FIRST.

Cornelius heard the Word, they all believed

1. You can't show that all the examples of baptism (the TINY percentage of baptisms in the first century that happened to get recorded in the NT) all involved people over the age of "X" who FIRST believed, THEN repented, THEN were taught about God and sin and repentence THEN reached a min. age, THEN were baptized.

2. Just because things are associated doesn't mandate an order. To be associated doesn't mandate a chronological sequence.

If a baby can immediately a few days after being born die and rise w Christ it's no problem.

Well in the sense you mean it, nor can someone over the age of X. "NO ONE can even say 'Jesus is Lord' unless the Holy Spirit enables." NO ONE. It doesn't say, "Ah, those over the age of X can save themselves and give themselves faith cuz they are over that age." NO ONE. Not the while male Germanic man with an IQ of 450 who has memorized every word in the Bible and has a Ph.D. and Th.D. in Christian theology and is ordained in 52 denominations. Not John the Baptist still in the womb of Elizabeth who leaped for joy when Jesus entered the room in Mary's womb. NO ONE dies and rises on their own. At ANY age. Jesus saves. God gives us life. God is not rendered impotent by babies anymore than by adults.



- Josiah

 

[Imalive]

There was a guy on a Dutch reformed forum who asked in 2013 if someone could advise him. He just had a baby and should he get the baby baptized or not?
LOL 180 pages now. They're still beating each other up over it. The guy never got an answer.