the meaning of Baptism

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MoreCoffee

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It's never been just a gesture to anyone but it's harder to believe that anyone who has not already been befriended by Jesus would ever want to be baptised.

The infant children of Christians want to be baptised
 

Cassia

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The infant children of Christians want to be baptised
Can't blame them once their dedicated parents have raised them in the way they should go. Or even being in the church setting where the truth of Christ is heard.
 

MoreCoffee

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Can't blame them once their dedicated parents have raised them in the way they should go. Or even being in the church setting where the truth of Christ is heard.

Their parents baptise them when they are infants
 

MoreCoffee

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That's what made them want to???

Yes, of course, parents are guardians of their children what the parent wants for his/her infant child is what the child wants.
 

Cassia

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Yes, of course, parents are guardians of their children what the parent wants for his/her infant child is what the child wants.
I don't equate that to offering the sacrifice of praise to God from their own lips.
 

MoreCoffee

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I don't equate that to offering the sacrifice of praise to God from their own lips.

Baptism is not an offering. It is a grace.
 

Josiah

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My parents fed, clothed and did a WHOLE LOT more for me .... simply because of their love and their awareness that I needed them.

I was baptized with an eyedropper within a minute of my emergency "C" section... I wasn't conscience or breathing... but I have thanked them MANY times for doing that. And since this was done WHILE staff was getting me hooked up to life support, it certainly didn't hurt me. The Staff in fact welcomed it.

I don't know anyone who has hated their parents because they allowed them to be baptized when they were an infant.... or for feeding or clothing or loving them.
 

Cassia

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Baptism is not an offering. It is a grace.

I'm just going to point this out and leave it at that because I don't care to argue over elementary things. It's time to lose that governor of law and replace it with a mature outlook on the part of organized religion. The gift is from God. Just like Able there is an offering/sacrifice to be made.

Heb 11:4
By faith G4102 Abel G6 offered G4374 unto God G2316 a more excellent G4119 sacrifice G2378 than G3844 Cain, G2535 by G1223 which G3739 he obtained witness G3140 that he was G1511 righteous, G1342 God G2316 testifying G3140 of G1909 his G846 gifts: G1435 and G2532 by G1223 it G846 he being dead G599 yet G2089 speaketh. G2980 G2980
 

NewCreation435

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[MENTION=59]jsimms435[/MENTION]


Friend, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT.....


1. I don't accept the rubric that the teaching of the Bible is irrelevant, only the traditions/examples found in the Bible. Thus, with all due respect, your question is irrelevant. You think so too, I strongly suspect. Can you find even one example in the Bible of posting at a website on the internet? Yet you are doing so. Can you find even one case of a church using electricity or powerpoint? Even one example of a youth group? Even one example of people passing around little cut up pieces of Weber's White Bread and little cups of Welch's Grape Juice? Friend, probably 99% of what your congregation does is not seen anywhere in the Bible. And can you find even one example in the Bible of an African-American or Hispanic or Korean being baptized? One example of a Gentile administering baptism? Did the congregation in Corinth have a website, a parking lot? Did they have a youth group and Sunday School? Did they use electricity? Did the preacher wear jeans and a Ahola shirt and use a mic? Did he hold a floppy, leather cover KJV Bible while he preached? Did it pass around grape juice and white bread for Communion? I'm being foolish but I'm SURE you see my point. With all due respect, I think you too reject your rubric.


2. We have a FEW examples of baptisms in the Bible. Probably fewer than 0.00000001% of the ones done in the First Century (a pretty small sample). And yes, it seems MOST of the very, very, very few examples of Baptism that happen to be recorded in the NT do seem to be of those past the never-disclosed age of "X." But not all of them. In some cases, it is IMPOSSIBLE to know the age of those being baptized. For example, we're told that "all in her household" were baptized - with no hint as to the respective ages of each and whether each had celebrated their "X" birthday. True, I can't point to an example that states, "And this person had not yet celebrated their "X" birthday." But then you can't find an example of a Korean or Native American or Italian or German being baptized but that doesn't stop you. And you can't show that even the tiny number of examples in the Bible were all over the age of X.



Two Threads on Baptism....

http://www.christianityhaven.com/sho...ld-be-Baptized

http://www.christianityhaven.com/sho...Infant-Baptism



Thank you.


- Josiah




.

So what I am left with is what baptism meant to those who are being baptized and why it was done. When people were baptized by John it includes other activities around it such as repentance and turning to God. For example, when the soliders came to him he told them to be content with their pay. When the Pharisees came he asked them who told them to flee from the wrath to come. Baptism is not an event that occurred in isolation, but other events surrounded it is my point. It is impossible for an infant to do these things. The infant has no personal awareness of sin or the need to repent. That is why it is not in the Bible. Because it isn't biblical.
Having had the reponsibility before as a person who is ordained, I have questioned those who are candidates for baptism to see if they understand what they are doing. Younger children may do baptism because they feel pressured to do so as I did when I went through confirmation. They may not completely understand what they are doing. So, questions must be asked so that it is clear they are doing so for the right reasons. I don't think there is a specific age involved as people mature at different levels at different times, but there needs to be a clear awareness.
 

MennoSota

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Holy Scripture tells Christians what Baptism is and what it means.

Romans 6:3-9 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? (4) We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. (6) We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. (7) For he who has died is freed from sin. (8) But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. (9) For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.

John 3:5 Jesus responded: "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one has been reborn by water and the Holy Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.

Colossians 2:9-13 For in him, all the fullness of the Divine Nature dwells bodily. (10) And in him, you have been filled; for he is the head of all principality and power. (11) In him also, you have been circumcised with a circumcision not made by hand, not by the despoiling of the body of flesh, but by the circumcision of Christ. (12) You have been buried with him in baptism. In him also, you have risen again through faith, by the work of God, who raised him up from the dead. (13) And when you were dead in your transgressions and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he enlivened you, together with him, forgiving you of all transgressions,

1 Peter 3:18-22 For Christ also died once for our sins, the Just One on behalf of the unjust, so that he might offer us to God, having died, certainly, in the flesh, but having been enlivened by the Spirit. (19) And in the Spirit, he preached to those who were in prison, going to those souls (20) who had been unbelieving in past times, while they waited for the patience of God, as in the days of Noah, when the ark was being built. In that ark, a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. (21) And now you also are saved, in a similar manner, by baptism, not by the testimony of sordid flesh, but by the examination of a good conscience in God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (22) He is at the right hand of God, devouring death, so that we may be made heirs to eternal life. And since he has journeyed to heaven, the Angels and powers and virtues are subject to him.
Excellent references to the work of the Holy Spirit when God adopted us and immersed us in Christ Jesus.
Water baptism is therefore an outward symbol of God's work and it is best illustrated by full immersion...and hopefully full extraction...from the water. Sprinkling, to my knowledge, is never presented in scripture.
Infant baptism is a creation of church denominations. If it is symbolic of dedication to Christ, then I see no problem, but if it is taught as a means of entry into the body of Christ, then it is a false teaching at best.
I understand the struggle as the Bible does not provide easy understanding of God's work of grace to those who are incapable of expressing a faith in God. Will they be damned to hell or brought to heaven? I look at King David's response when his infant son died. He said that he would one day see his son again. This leads me to believe that God is gracious to those who cannot repent by issue of age or cognitive ability. Can I prove that? No.
The creation of infant baptism to replace circumcision is just that...a creation like a magician pulling a rabbit out of his hat. The biblical teaching is non-existent, but it's taught nonetheless.
 

MennoSota

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'Whole households' were baptized. It stretches credulity to think that households in those days were as likely to have no children as to have some.
You are inferring from silence what is not shared.
 

MennoSota

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I see Baptism as an action of the church in obedience to God's commandment (Mark 16:15-16) that unites the baptised person to Christ (Romans 6:3-9) and saves them (1 Peter 3:21) and enables them to see and enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:5).
That's terrible interpretation of scripture...
 

Imalive

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It cannot be done.

But it doesn't say they had to be 12 either. That's also just a tradition. 5 or so makes sense. My son wanted to convert his 3 y o brother when he was 5, saying he had to confess he was a sinner now!
 

MennoSota

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I don't see what difference exists between baptism as "a saving act" and "an act because of being saved" unless you mean that one is saved quite apart from baptism and then you'd be contradicting both John 3:5 and 1 Peter 3:21 as well as the teaching in Romans 6:3-9.
No contradiction of scripture, just disagreement with your poor biblical exegesis.
 

Lamb

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So what I am left with is what baptism meant to those who are being baptized and why it was done. When people were baptized by John it includes other activities around it such as repentance and turning to God. For example, when the soliders came to him he told them to be content with their pay. When the Pharisees came he asked them who told them to flee from the wrath to come. Baptism is not an event that occurred in isolation, but other events surrounded it is my point. It is impossible for an infant to do these things. The infant has no personal awareness of sin or the need to repent. That is why it is not in the Bible. Because it isn't biblical.
Having had the reponsibility before as a person who is ordained, I have questioned those who are candidates for baptism to see if they understand what they are doing. Younger children may do baptism because they feel pressured to do so as I did when I went through confirmation. They may not completely understand what they are doing. So, questions must be asked so that it is clear they are doing so for the right reasons. I don't think there is a specific age involved as people mature at different levels at different times, but there needs to be a clear awareness.

Your procedure would be valid if baptism weren't something God does in man. But with God nothing is impossible. He can bring faith easily to an adult who fights him so how much easier would it be to bring an infant to faith by His Word through the waters of baptism? God's Word is present in those waters because God promises us...He is the one who ordains baptism and scriptures that have been provided in the linked threads Josiah provided give proof that God brings us the benefits of the cross in baptism.
 

MennoSota

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The infant children of Christians want to be baptised
Not true. By age 6 months, children have been observed lying. You, the parent, want them baptized to feed your poor theology, but children don't care.
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:

Friend, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT.....


1. I don't accept the rubric that the teaching of the Bible is irrelevant, only the traditions/examples found in the Bible. Thus, with all due respect, your question is irrelevant. You think so too, I strongly suspect. Can you find even one example in the Bible of posting at a website on the internet? Yet you are doing so. Can you find even one case of a church using electricity or powerpoint? Even one example of a youth group? Even one example of people passing around little cut up pieces of Weber's White Bread and little cups of Welch's Grape Juice? Friend, probably 99% of what your congregation does is not seen anywhere in the Bible. And can you find even one example in the Bible of an African-American or Hispanic or Korean being baptized? One example of a Gentile administering baptism? Did the congregation in Corinth have a website, a parking lot? Did they have a youth group and Sunday School? Did they use electricity? Did the preacher wear jeans and a Ahola shirt and use a mic? Did he hold a floppy, leather cover KJV Bible while he preached? Did it pass around grape juice and white bread for Communion? I'm being foolish but I'm SURE you see my point. With all due respect, I think you too reject your rubric.


2. We have a FEW examples of baptisms in the Bible. Probably fewer than 0.00000001% of the ones done in the First Century (a pretty small sample). And yes, it seems MOST of the very, very, very few examples of Baptism that happen to be recorded in the NT
do seem to be of those past the never-disclosed age of "X." But not all of them. In some cases, it is IMPOSSIBLE to know the age of those being baptized. For example, we're told that "all in her household" were baptized - with no hint as to the respective ages of each and whether each had celebrated their "X" birthday. True, I can't point to an example that states, "And this person had not yet celebrated their "X" birthday." But then you can't find an example of a Korean or Native American or Italian or German being baptized but that doesn't stop you. And you can't show that even the tiny number of examples in the Bible were all over the age of X.



Two Threads on Baptism....

http://www.christianityhaven.com/sho...ld-be-Baptized

http://www.christianityhaven.com/sho...Infant-Baptism



Thank you.


- Josiah




.


When people were baptized by John it includes other activities around it such as repentance and turning to God.

1. John's baptism was Johns - not the Christian one. The Jews had 3 different kinds of baptism, John's was the "Baptism of Repentance." The New Covenant had not yet come, Christian Baptism had not yet been instituted. Yes - the Jewish Baptism of Repentance accompanied repentance. I mean, we could note that the Passover Meal included roast lamb and insist that Holy Communion thus should include lamb. But they are different things.

2. I'd still be careful about assuming that just because we have EXAMPLES of things associated that therefore they are MANDATED to be together... and especially to place them in order, as if one must come BEFORE the other.


Baptism is not an event that occurred in isolation, but other events surrounded it is my point.

Well, I agree with that. The one stated thing with Christian Baptism is teaching. Baptize them.... teach them. They are associated. Of course, nowhere does it state "FIRST you must teach them and THEN, after they have been taught ALL THINGS.... and AFTER they have attained the age of X.... only THEN may they be baptized." Doesn't say that. Remember: the Greek word "kai" ('and') is the most loose, indefinite connector word there is in Greek - it simply means they are associated, it in no way whatsoever remotely implies order. Remember too that the Christian institution says NOTHING about age.


It is impossible for an infant to do these things. The infant has no personal awareness of sin or the need to repent. That is why it is not in the Bible. Because it isn't biblical.

Um... with all due respect.... could you prove that?

Where does it say someone must verbally repent of their sins BEFORE they may be baptized? I know of no such verse.

Where does it say babies have no sin? I know of no such verse. I think it says, "for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."



So, questions must be asked so that it is clear they are doing so for the right reasons.

Do you ask children why they are coming to Sunday School or why they are listening to some children's Bible song (all a part of the same Great Commission where we are told to Baptize and teach)? Is it wrong to teach a child if the child doesn't consent or maybe is listening for the wrong reasons?

I think the Bible always speaks of Baptism as something received, not done. "BE baptized." Not "go and ask to baptize yourself." I think often Christians evangelize and preach and teach people because they are told to "go... baptize.... teach" and because they want them to be blessed: not because the recipient has good reasons for wanting to listen.

And I think things are done for kids that not only do NOT have their consent but their protest. Ever heard a parent ask an 8th grader on Monday morning, "Do you have heart-felt desire and sense a deep need to go to school today?" Or "Do you want to have that cavity filled at the dentist today instead of going to the beach?" No, I think sometimes children are given things because it's a blessing - whether they appreciate it or not at the time. Or consider: I didn't appreciate being a citizen of the USA until YEARS after I was born.... should my parents have forbidden me to be a citizen at birth?

But again, I can't think of any verse that says, "a person must completely understand what they are doing BEFORE you may teach or baptize them or bring them to church or Sunday School or......" Indeed, I think it is OFTEN true that we "completely understand" blessings only AFTER they are received. Do you disagree?


- Josiah
 

MennoSota

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Baptism is not an offering. It is a grace.
LOL, not this works based, non-grace teaching again. You don't have a clue what grace is.
 
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