God's displeasure with Cain?

[Imalive]

Abel didn't offer a sacrifice - he offered the firstlings -there is no mention of killing in the text. Only the offering of a gift. The word "sacrifice" is NOT included. Abel did NOT slay any of his flock.


Abel is the Shepherd of the flock - he is a good shepherd, who lays down his life for the sheep

Abel, not Cain - is declared Righteous by Yeshua.

What is Cain's sin?

Whatever Cain's sin is - it led him to murder Abel. Why would Cain murder Abel?

Abel stood in the way of Cain's evil desire to eat the flesh of animals contrary to God's command.

Saul/Paul - your favorite murdering Pharisee - approves. The Jews approve also, but you aren't likely to know this. Saul/Paul is one of their number - from the ravenous tribe of Benjamin - the tribe of the ravenous wolf according to Genesis 49:27.

he gave firstlings of their fat
liposuction?
Paul wouldnt eat meat ever again if it would offend a brother.
Nowhere did God forbid them to eat meat after the fall. Did He dress them in snake skin as some say that fell off?

 

[Imalive]

That makes no sense. God wasnt pleased w the Israelites who wanted meat so he gave em birds til it came out of their nose.

 

[Cassia]

Abel didn't offer a sacrifice - he offered the firstlings -there is no mention of killing in the text. Only the offering of a gift. The word "sacrifice" is NOT included. Abel did NOT slay any of his flock.


Abel is the Shepherd of the flock - he is a good shepherd, who lays down his life for the sheep

Abel, not Cain - is declared Righteous by Yeshua.

What is Cain's sin?

Whatever Cain's sin is - it led him to murder Abel. Why would Cain murder Abel?

Abel stood in the way of Cain's evil desire to eat the flesh of animals contrary to God's command.

Saul/Paul - your favorite murdering Pharisee - approves. The Jews approve also, but you aren't likely to know this. Saul/Paul is one of their number - from the ravenous tribe of Benjamin - the tribe of the ravenous wolf according to Genesis 49:27.

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks.
Abel didn't offer a sacrifice - he offered the firstlings -there is no mention of killing in the text. Only the offering of a gift. The word "sacrifice" is NOT included. Abel did NOT slay any of his flock.

Hey read the text. A more acceptable sacrifice

The tribe of Benjamin were not supposed to have survived because of their treatment of chopping the woman into 12 pieces and sending them to the different tribes after they pulled the Lot thing of offering a woman so that their brethern wouldn't sodomize the guy. Then they had the gall to be affronted with the violence of her death. But they are mentioned in Revelation to be a surviving tribe in the 144000 whereas Dan is not who formed their own Levitical priesthood in the same book of Judges.

If the question is what was Cain's sin? then I'd have to say the same as Esaus. Not acceptable. In the case of Esau not being accepted then greed would be the sin. Same with Cain because just because his offering wasn't accepted he had no reason to kill his brother except to get the blessing without His acceptance.

 

[Stravinsk]

Hey read the text. A more acceptable sacrifice

The tribe of Benjamin were not supposed to have survived because of their treatment of chopping the woman into 12 pieces and sending them to the different tribes after they pulled the Lot thing of offering a woman so that their brethern wouldn't sodomize the guy. Then they had the gall to be affronted with the violence of her death. But they are mentioned in Revelation to be a surviving tribe whereas Dan is not who formed their own Levitical priesthood in the same book of Judges.

If the question is what was Cain's sin? then I'd have to say the same as Esaus. Not acceptable. In the case of Esau not being accepted then greed would be the sin. Same with Cain because just because his offering wasn't accepted he had no reason to kill his brother except to get the blessing without His acceptance.

Hey. I read the text and I know the Hebrew. You can say "sacrifice" till you're blue in the face but that is NOT the word used in Genesis 4 with regard to Abel's action. Abel offers a gift, not a sacrifice. Learn the Hebrew, know the difference.

 

[Cassia]

Hey. I read the text and I know the Hebrew. You can say "sacrifice" till you're blue in the face but that is NOT the word used in Genesis 4 with regard to Abel's action. Abel offers a gift, not a sacrifice. Learn the Hebrew, know the difference.

Both offering and sacrifice are used.

Heb 11:4
By faith G4102 Abel G6 offered G4374 unto God G2316 a more excellent G4119 sacrifice G2378 than G3844 Cain, G2535 by G1223 which G3739 he obtained witness G3140 that he was G1511 righteous, G1342 God G2316 testifying G3140 of G1909 his G846 gifts: G1435 and G2532 by G1223 it G846 he being dead G599 yet G2089 speaketh. G2980 G2980

Gen 4:3
And in process H7093 of time H3117 it came to pass, that Cain H7014 brought H935 of the fruit H6529 of the ground H127 an offering H4503 unto the LORD. H3068


Maybe take up Greek

 

[Imalive]

1 John 3
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

 

[Stravinsk]

1 John 3
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

I have asked since the very first post what the "evil" work or works are. Tilling the ground or offering God what comes from the ground aren't evil.

So it can't be that.

Abel was killed because he was a good shepherd, and Cain was after his sheep.

Animal flesh was not on the diet until post flood - this is Cain's sin.

 

[Stravinsk]

Both offering and sacrifice are used.

Heb 11:4
By faith G4102 Abel G6 offered G4374 unto God G2316 a more excellent G4119 sacrifice G2378 than G3844 Cain, G2535 by G1223 which G3739 he obtained witness G3140 that he was G1511 righteous, G1342 God G2316 testifying G3140 of G1909 his G846 gifts: G1435 and G2532 by G1223 it G846 he being dead G599 yet G2089 speaketh. G2980 G2980

Gen 4:3
And in process H7093 of time H3117 it came to pass, that Cain H7014 brought H935 of the fruit H6529 of the ground H127 an offering H4503 unto the LORD. H3068


Maybe take up Greek ;)

Hebrew you mean? I've looked up the word for that passage, it does not mean "slaughter" or "sacrifice", it means gift, present or even presence(as in I'm present in this thread while I type this post). The gift can be in the form of a sacrifice, but it doesn't need to be.

Here is the word: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H4503&t=KJV

Here is an example of how it is used to NOT depict a sacrifice or animal slaughter:

Genesis 43:11 And their father Israel said unto them, If it must be so now, do this; take of the best fruits in the land in your vessels, and carry down the man a present, H4503 a little balm, and a little honey, spices, and myrrh, nuts, and almonds:

Here is another example of having nothing to do with animals at all:

Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering H4503 of jealousy, an offering H4503 of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.

And another:

And he smote Moab, and measured them with a line, casting them down to the ground; even with two lines measured he to put to death, and with one full line to keep alive. And so the Moabites became David's servants, and brought gifts. H4503

 

[Stravinsk]

Hey read the text. A more acceptable sacrifice

The tribe of Benjamin were not supposed to have survived because of their treatment of chopping the woman into 12 pieces and sending them to the different tribes after they pulled the Lot thing of offering a woman so that their brethern wouldn't sodomize the guy. Then they had the gall to be affronted with the violence of her death. But they are mentioned in Revelation to be a surviving tribe in the 144000 whereas Dan is not who formed their own Levitical priesthood in the same book of Judges.

If the question is what was Cain's sin? then I'd have to say the same as Esaus. Not acceptable. In the case of Esau not being accepted then greed would be the sin. Same with Cain because just because his offering wasn't accepted he had no reason to kill his brother except to get the blessing without His acceptance.

Don't confuse the book of Hebrews (written in Greek) with the language of Hebrew. The New Testament book of Hebrews certainly does say it was a "sacrifice". However the Hebrew word used in Genesis does NOT mean this.



You might as well say that Cain "slaughtered" the vegetables he was offering. But in Christian cognitive dissonance world, I understand how it has to be made to fit.

 

[Stravinsk]

he gave firstlings of their fat
liposuction?
Paul wouldnt eat meat ever again if it would offend a brother.
Nowhere did God forbid them to eat meat after the fall. Did He dress them in snake skin as some say that fell off?

God described what they could eat. All you need to do is read Genesis 9:3 to see that meat was not on the menu until post flood. At a guess, that might have been necessary until enough vegetation grew back.

As for offering "fat" of the sheep. Well, when sheep are tended well and they eat well and are protected, they get fat. If they were always on the run from predators because they didn't have a shepherd like Abel and didn't have time to eat that grass they love, they wouldn't be fat. Simple enough?

 

[Imalive]

God described what they could eat. All you need to do is read Genesis 9:3 to see that meat was not on the menu until post flood. At a guess, that might have been necessary until enough vegetation grew back.

As for offering "fat" of the sheep. Well, when sheep are tended well and they eat well and are protected, they get fat. If they were always on the run from predators because they didn't have a shepherd like Abel and didn't have time to eat that grass they love, they wouldn't be fat. Simple enough?

But how did he give that as a present to God? Look God, here are some fat sheep. You may have them.
Anyway, it doesn't matter if it was a blood sacrifice or not. Suppose you're right and it wasn't. Then still Cain didn't give his gift right and Abel did. Abel gave the first and best. He wanted to worship God. Cain just wanted to do his own thing. He was earthly, fixed on the earth and his name means posession. If you look at his family, they didn't even serve God. He wasn't sorry for killing his brother. He was mainly concerned w the punishment he got. He didn't love his brother. First commandment. And he didn't love God. He hadn't sinned yet when God warned him. Why did he get angry anyway? Why didn't he say: oh sorry Lord, You don't like grapes? Tell me how I need to give You a gift. He didn't care what God said.
The ground was cursed. He gave God fruit of the cursed ground and not the best.

His heart wasn't good. God was also displeased sometimes w animal offers:

I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.

22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.

23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.

24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream

 

[Stravinsk]

But how did he give that as a present to God? Look God, here are some fat sheep. You may have them.

You are making an assumption that the offering was given on a certain day, at a certain time. How Abel lives his life with regards to the animals he tends IS the offering. He causes no harm to his flock. He leads them to pasture(feeds them). He protects them from predators. He is not a hired hand, he is the Shepherd, and as a Good Shepherd, he lays down his life for the flock.

Cain's sin, prior to murdering his brother Abel, is never explicitly identified in Genesis. One can say it was the offering itself - but the text clearly says that God does not respect Cain or his offering and that he does respect Abel AND his offering. So it is not the offering itself, or by itself.

Have you never wondered why Yeshua brings our minds back to this story of mankind's first murder with His talk of Sheep, Sheep-pen, The door to the sheep pen, the thief of the sheep, the one who comes only to steal, kill, destroy?

Have you ever wondered why Yeshua says "Go and learn what this means: "I desire mercy, not sacrifice"?

Have you ever wondered why there was no animal flesh on the dinner plate of the disciples at the last supper, and Yeshua points to bread as His body and fresh fruit of the vine as His blood?

If you connect the stories, the only thing that is missing from the original is the hireling. The hireling comes a little later, and applies to all Jews and to all Christians. The hirelings who do not care for the sheep but only want $$ are the false prophets who tell people lies (sometimes welcome lies) for their own benefit and advantage.

 

[Imalive]

I didn't know Paul had a swimming pool in his backyard, pressuring the people to pay him. He was the only one that didn't get paid and he gave his life and he didn't teach against the law. Real false teachers use his writings for that and turn it into lewdness and go on the way of Cain. If he was a false teacher the Jews then, who didn't want Jesus, wouldn't have tried to kill him.

 

[Stravinsk]

I didn't know Paul had a swimming pool in his backyard, pressuring the people to pay him. He was the only one that didn't get paid and he gave his life and he didn't teach against the law. Real false teachers use his writings for that and turn it into lewdness and go on the way of Cain. If he was a false teacher the Jews then, who didn't want Jesus, wouldn't have tried to kill him.

I'm sure you do not know how Saul/Paul really lived, as he writes that he has a horrible life in prison and he's doing it all for love. Of God, and you. The mass murderer and terror of the new converts turned saint and leader of them all in a flash is quite the story of God's power, they say - if you believe it.

Do remember that when faced with danger Saul/Paul didn't die like a martyr or look to God. Instead, he appealed to the State - the same one that had just murdered Yeshua at the behest of the Jews at that time. Heads of State love Romans 13 -as it gives them Godly Authority to do what they please. This teaching comes from Saul/Paul. It is a false teaching that is self evident, at least to me. Those who rule and are in power, however, tend to like it.

I don't believe Saul/Paul's sob stories. I think he was probably treated exceptionally well in prison in exchange for some particular teachings he churns out.

Both Jews and Christians listen to Pharisees and the ones Yeshua condemned in his speeches.

For Jews, it's the Babylonian Talmud.
For Christians, some of the teachings of Saul/Paul, a pharisee from the tribe of Benjamin - the tribe of the Ravenous Wolf.

 

[psalms 91]

I'm sure you do not know how Saul/Paul really lived, as he writes that he has a horrible life in prison and he's doing it all for love. Of God, and you. The mass murderer and terror of the new converts turned saint and leader of them all in a flash is quite the story of God's power, they say - if you believe it.

Do remember that when faced with danger Saul/Paul didn't die like a martyr or look to God. Instead, he appealed to the State - the same one that had just murdered Yeshua at the behest of the Jews at that time. Heads of State love Romans 13 -as it gives them Godly Authority to do what they please. This teaching comes from Saul/Paul. It is a false teaching that is self evident, at least to me. Those who rule and are in power, however, tend to like it.

I don't believe Saul/Paul's sob stories. I think he was probably treated exceptionally well in prison in exchange for some particular teachings he churns out.

Both Jews and Christians listen to Pharisees and the ones Yeshua condemned in his speeches.

For Jews, it's the Babylonian Talmud.
For Christians, some of the teachings of Saul/Paul, a pharisee from the tribe of Benjamin - the tribe of the Ravenous Wolf.

Paul converted by Jesus Himself, taught by Him and one of the greatest writers of the New testament. Believe what you will, it really isnt another conspiricy

 

[Stravinsk]

Paul converted by Jesus Himself, taught by Him and one of the greatest writers of the New testament. Believe what you will, it really isnt another conspiricy

Did you know, sir, that Jesus's supposed first words to Saul on that wide wide road to Damascus actually are a reference to a Greek play featuring the Greek God Dionysus? The play is called The Bacchae, was written long before Paul's time, and is most definitely a greek play featuring the Greek god Dionysus.

A quote from that play in which Dionysus speaks is Jesus's supposed first words to Saul/Paul - and it is said they are spoken in the Hebrew language, lol! Paul's conversion story is a fiction.

 

[Imalive]

Did you know, sir, that Jesus's supposed first words to Saul on that wide wide road to Damascus actually are a reference to a Greek play featuring the Greek God Dionysus? The play is called The Bacchae, was written long before Paul's time, and is most definitely a greek play featuring the Greek god Dionysus.

A quote from that play in which Dionysus speaks is Jesus's supposed first words to Saul/Paul - and it is said they are spoken in the Hebrew language, lol! Paul's conversion story is a fiction.

Dionysus and other of those stories atheists use to prove Jesus was just made up. The devil copies, not God.


Dionysus, like Jesus, was son of the divine ruler of the world and a mortal mother, appeared in human form among mortals, was killed and restored to life. Early Christian writers, aware of the similarity between Christianity and mystery-cult, claim that the latter is a diabolical imitation of the former” (Dionysus, Richard Seaford, 126.)
“The correspondences between Christianity and the other mystery religions of antiquity are perhaps more startling than the differences. Orpheus and Christ share attributes in the early centuries of our era; and of all the major ancient deities, Dionysus has the most in common with the figure of Christ” (Classical Mythology 8th Edition, 385)

 

[Stravinsk]

Dionysus and other of those stories atheists use to prove Jesus was just made up. The devil copies, not God.


Dionysus, like Jesus, was son of the divine ruler of the world and a mortal mother, appeared in human form among mortals, was killed and restored to life. Early Christian writers, aware of the similarity between Christianity and mystery-cult, claim that the latter is a diabolical imitation of the former” (Dionysus, Richard Seaford, 126.)
“The correspondences between Christianity and the other mystery religions of antiquity are perhaps more startling than the differences. Orpheus and Christ share attributes in the early centuries of our era; and of all the major ancient deities, Dionysus has the most in common with the figure of Christ” (Classical Mythology 8th Edition, 385)

I am not an atheist, I believe the words of Yeshua as outlined in Matthew and John, and I know Saul/Paul is a phony and false prophet.

The Bacchae is written long before Paul's time - it is an ancient Greek play. Contained in that play is a phrase spoken by one of the main characters - Dionysus, who was a god of the Greeks.

The phrase is "I would rather do him sacrifice than in a fury kick against the pricks; thou a mortal, he a god. " which is spoken by Dionysus.

The term "kick against the pricks" and the context in which it is spoken is quite unique to this ancient play.

It can be found here: http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/bacchan.html (search for "kick" and you'll be brought right to it)

Now if you want to believe God decided to represent Himself as a false greek god by using this phrase in this context, that's your business. To me it's just another proof Saul/Paul is a false prophet.

 

[Imalive]

I am not an atheist, I believe the words of Yeshua as outlined in Matthew and John, and I know Saul/Paul is a phony and false prophet.

The Bacchae is written long before Paul's time - it is an ancient Greek play. Contained in that play is a phrase spoken by one of the main characters - Dionysus, who was a god of the Greeks.

The phrase is "I would rather do him sacrifice than in a fury kick against the pricks; thou a mortal, he a god. " which is spoken by Dionysus.

The term "kick against the pricks" and the context in which it is spoken is quite unique to this ancient play.

It can be found here: http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/bacchan.html (search for "kick" and you'll be brought right to it)

Now if you want to believe God decided to represent Himself as a false greek god by using this phrase in this context, that's your business. To me it's just another proof Saul/Paul is a false prophet.

That's no proof at all. According to them it's proof that Jesus isn't God and it was all made up. Well they present it as that, but the devil knew already, so of course he came up w that stuff. You don't say either that Jesus is false cause some Greek had the same stuff w a virgin birth and a son of god and whatever. I don't want to look it up, but an atheist once said that.

 

[Stravinsk]

That's no proof at all. According to them it's proof that Jesus isn't God and it was all made up. Well they present it as that, but the devil knew already, so of course he came up w that stuff. You don't say either that Jesus is false cause some Greek had the same stuff w a virgin birth and a son of god and whatever. I don't want to look it up, but an atheist once said that.

According to "them"? Did I claim Yeshua was made up? No, I didn't. You are lumping me in with people who have drawn a conclusion based on this.

I have given my reasons for not believing Saul/Paul is a prophet, elsewhere. It is dishonest of you not to acknowledge that and to instead make a grand generalization of the "they" as if every person who disbelieves Saul/Paul can fit into your neat little group of atheist disbelievers!

The reason spoken of here (the greek play) is but one reason. The Hebrew God would absolutely not introduce himself to Saul using the words and message of a Greek god!!