Purgatory?

[Andrew]

There is a simple fix. Read your Bible and stop making salvation be through works.

Dont you mean "...salvation be through works 'alone'..."?

Can I ask you...
Should we keep the commandments of God yay or nay?

 

[Andrew]

Yeehaw! It is certainly a pleasure reading your posts on here and seeing that you are like me in pointing salvation entirely to God and not back at our belly buttons which is the tendency of man to want to do and play some role in his being save. Grace isn't grace if we have to assist God as if he can't do it without us and that reminds me of how Jesus told about the sheep and how one got lost and the shepherd went out to find it and bring it back to the fold and then he went on to compare that to repentance and the point is that men forget the first part of the parable in how the shepherd shows what repentance is with the shepherd going out to rescue the sheep and not the sheep assisting which is ridiculous if you stop and think about it!

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Romans 2:6

 

[TurtleHare]

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Romans 2:6

Who can do good works except those who have faith in the Savior? If your doing works to get to heaven your gonna fail.

 

[Andrew]

Who can do good works except those who have faith in the Savior? If your doing works to get to heaven your gonna fail.

No I never said that, we are being accused over and over again by Menno.
We are disputing the necessity of repentance and he thinks its works.
I never said deeds alone will get you in heaven, menno just doesnt like the fact that we must also repent and stop sinning, not just that but he accuses us of extinguishing grace if you repent, that is NOT what Christ teaches.
And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
Matthew 12:10-12

 

[MennoSota]

No it's the very thing Paul teaches, to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. It's what Jesus says. Hear My Words and do them. Revelations. Repent and do your first works again.
Galatians, that's about circumcision and other Mosaic laws.

Galatians is about adding works to God's grace, which is exactly what you are doing.
You are forcing the cart to go before the horse.

 

[MennoSota]

Why because you take "lest ye boast" entirely out of context and base your entire faith around it? What is all that "repentance" talk in the bible? did you rip them out?

No, because I read the Bible and see that God gives unmerited grace and the gift of faith. It is right in the text. It is the very point Paul is making in Ephesians 2:1-10.

 

[MennoSota]

And if the reformed believe they are saved only by grace and don't add works, why do they always read the 10 commandments in church? They're adding works.

You are begging a question and changing the subject.
Do you understand the purpose of God's law? Do you understand what the law does and what it reveals about the human condition?
You are butchering salvation.

 

[Imalive]

You are begging a question and changing the subject.
Do you understand the purpose of God's law? Do you understand what the law does and what it reveals about the human condition?
You are butchering salvation.

Hahahahahahaha
I'm a parttime vegetarian.

 

[Imalive]

Galatians is about adding works to God's grace, which is exactly what you are doing.
You are forcing the cart to go before the horse.

If the horse doesn't move, force it.
The law is for the unsaved or backslidden. Nothing better than a nice friendly hell preaching with warnings if you're in a backslidden state. That'll make me move and repent.

Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

LOL Michael Brown used this text for the grace ppl who say our past present future sins are once and for all forgiven w out confessing sins and God sees us as perfect as Jesus and is always happy w us.

 

[Andrew]

No, because I read the Bible and see that God gives unmerited grace and the gift of faith. It is right in the text. It is the very point Paul is making in Ephesians 2:1-10.

When Jesus told his disciples to go out and heal the sick did they do it because they thought it was work unto salvation or because it was the right thing to do?
So because I want to follow Christ as my example and become like Christ and be a living testimony for those who have known me, to fix my eyes on heavenly delights instead of worldy possession, to not lead others astray in producing bad fruit, for these things I am accused of "working for salvation". Brother we are on the same page but you are letting your boastful arrogance get the best of you. Don't tarry to pluck the mote out of my eye if you can't even see the beam in your own.
Being fruitful is not working for salvation its evidence of faith, please stop confusing them. If you hold so strongly against a brother in faith just because they are outside your denomination and feel you have to battle them unreasonably for the sake of your theological pride, then are you not condemning others on behalf of your works for your salvation?

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:10

Walking in good works...

 

[Imalive]

Who can do good works except those who have faith in the Savior? If your doing works to get to heaven your gonna fail.

1 Corinthians 9:27New King James Version (NKJV)

27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

 

[Andrew]

1 Corinthians 9:27New King James Version (NKJV)

27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Amen, faith transforms us to good works instead of dead works without faith

 

[Lamb]

Amen, faith transforms us to good works instead of dead works without faith

That's sanctification. Are you aware of the difference? This is why I think you're getting frustrated when talking with some of the members here.

 

[Imalive]

That's sanctification. Are you aware of the difference? This is why I think you're getting frustrated when talking with some of the members here.

This whole thread is about sanctification, I thought. Oh wait it was about purgatory. Well same idea. How do you get sanctified? You get saved in one moment, but then you work out your salvation and stay saved and if not, repent.

 

[Andrew]

That's sanctification. Are you aware of the difference? This is why I think you're getting frustrated when talking with some of the members here.

I have been aware is the whole point I am trying to get across to Menno, the only member I get frustrated with. He accuses me and several others of "justifying by works alone" and I think it has to do with his theological arrogance holding scales over his eyes, blinding him to see that we actually agree, that and he calls repentance "working for salvation" and wont answer me if we should hold to the commandments of God or not.

 

[Andrew]

This whole thread is about sanctification, I thought. Oh wait it was about purgatory. Well same idea. How do you get sanctified? You get saved in one moment, but then you work out your salvation and stay saved and if not, repent.

It's fascinating how the topic of "Purgatory" has lead us to the topic of "Sanctity", they obviously press on each other.

 

[Lamb]

I started a thread so this one can get back to talking about Purgatory

http://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...anctification-Differences&p=110923#post110923

 

[MennoSota]

Galatians 5

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

That is not a verse on salvation. That is a verse given to those who are already saved.
This is not tough, yet, you seem to persist in misunderstanding.

 

[MennoSota]

The word purge is in the bible. At least it is in real 73 book bibles

Oh look, purge is also in the KJV.

2 Chronicles 34:3 For in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father: and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images.

Psalms 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Psalms 65:3 Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.

Psalms 79:9 Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.

Isaiah 1:25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

Ezekiel 20:38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 43:20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.

Ezekiel 43:26 Seven days shall they purge the altar and purify it; and they shall consecrate themselves.

Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Malachi 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifer of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Tobit 12:9 For alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin. Those that exercise alms and righteousness shall be filled with life:​

This is just a great example of butchering the Bible to create a prooftext out of context. Thank you for providing such a wonderful example.

 

[MennoSota]

Dont you mean "...salvation be through works 'alone'..."?

Can I ask you...
Should we keep the commandments of God yay or nay?

The law is perfect. It shows us our failure and judgment so we can see that God is just in condemning humanity.
The law shows us that being right with God can never be attained because we cannot keep every law. Just breaking one law brings judgment.
Our only hope of being pardoned is not by saying how sorry we are for breaking the law. No. The just judge must sentence us no matter how sorry we are.
Our only hope of being pardoned is by the just Judge, the King Himself, choosing to substitute his judgment upon someone else who will take my place. We need someone who will provide an unmerited favor to us by dying in our stead. Thanks be to God, it is the King, Himself, who suffers on our behalf and proves it is enough by rising from the dead. Amazingly, we do nothing to gain God's favor. Instead, God chooses to be gracious to whom he wills and God chooses to condemn whom he wills. That is what it means to be Sovereign and to rule over all creation.
Do you realize that God will never extend grace to the fallen angels? The Bible says that angels long to understand how a just God extends grace. They cannot comprehend it because it is something that God does not grant to angels. But, God has chosen to extend grace to those whom he elects to extend grace.
It is ALL God and nothing of us in the process of salvation. Any attempt to claim a role in our salvation is an act of extreme arrogance on our part. It is a rejection of God's amazing gift and a demand that we be given credit for our imaginary actions. It is, as Paul says, anathema! May God forbid.
Now...do you see why your claims are so aggregious? I only pray that God will open your eyes.