Purgatory?

MoreCoffee

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[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION], what I realise is that replying to you wastes my time. I shall have a nap soon. I will reply to your posts only when I think it may be beneficial to do so or when I am feeling a bit naughty and want to see what crazy theology you'll throw at me next :)
 

MennoSota

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Refer to my latter post. The Catholic term purgatory would be well fitted for this world as we are all baptised in the fire unto purity, sinners have no eternal life so the medieval ideas of hell need to die. All sinners (even we) WILL have our PART in the lake of FIRE that burns forever and ever! Not all sinners will burn forever ever and ever in hell for hell will be burnt up in the lake of FIRE, our GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE. We are tried here and now in the fire of God and are judged accordingly to our works if we are to continue in everlasting fellowship with God ot to be quickly burnt up never to return for all eternity
Thanks for sharing your heresy that denies the existence of hell. I now see you deny the full deity of God and deny eternal damnation despite the fact that God the Son spoke about it more than any other in the Bible.
Are you sure you're not a charismatic Jehovah's Witness?
 

MennoSota

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[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION], what I realise is that replying to you wastes my time. I shall have a nap soon. I will reply to your posts only when I think it may be beneficial to do so or when I am feeling a bit naughty and want to see what crazy theology you'll throw at me next :)
LOL, it is better for you not to respond than to respond with false teaching not found in God's word.
Toss your catechism in the garbage and read your Bible instead. You may actually find the Christ of scripture.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Geeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! Lutherans sure need a lot of pages to define "sanctification"

:smirk:

11 pages!

I will read them some time, when I am in need of a Lutheran definition. But I will say that at least Lutherans have given the matter some thought.

I didn't click the link until you said this^^^^ Oh. My. Word. :D
 

Andrew

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Thanks for sharing your heresy that denies the existence of hell. I now see you deny the full deity of God and deny eternal damnation despite the fact that God the Son spoke about it more than any other in the Bible.
Are you sure you're not a charismatic Jehovah's Witness?
Separation of God may be like unto hanging by the tongue over eternal flames and never being devoured, my idea of God is stronger he doesnt just burn them forever he burns em up, hell will be thrown into the fire and death will too. How is hell eternal torment in flames if sinners do not live forever, if hell is thrown away and death is thrown away?
 

MennoSota

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Separation of God may be like unto hanging by the tongue over eternal flames and never being devoured, my idea of God is stronger he doesnt just burn them forever he burns em up, hell will be thrown into the fire and death will too. How is hell eternal torment in flames if sinners do not live forever, if hell is thrown away and death is thrown away?
Your statement here is bizarre.

Show your scripture for your view.
 

Confessional Lutheran

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Geeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! Lutherans sure need a lot of pages to define "sanctification"

:smirk:

11 pages!

I will read them some time, when I am in need of a Lutheran definition. But I will say that at least Lutherans have given the matter some thought.

Just so there's no misunderstanding what we mean by the term. :p
 

MoreCoffee

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LOL, it is better for you not to respond than to respond with false teaching not found in God's word.
Toss your catechism in the garbage and read your Bible instead. You may actually find the Christ of scripture.

If my bible were as eviscerated as yours I would toss it in the bin. But Thanks be to God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, that it is not. All 73 books are intact. Equipped with the holy scriptures and the Catechism of the Catholic Church I fear none of your posts. In truth they are amusing. I get to watch you denounce things you can't even define. And you get to use your shiny new words - not so shiny or new to others but evidently really shiny for you - so it is a win win game eh? I get a good laugh and you can type in righteous indignation whenever I reply.

"such fun!"

:smirk:
 

Andrew

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Your statement here is bizarre.

Show your scripture for your view.
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:15

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:14-15

The devil and demons, beast and false prophets are eternally condemned but sinners are not immortal their mortality does not take on immortality
 

Cassia

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Did you dispose of the Catechism I recommended to you. The one called The Teaching of Christ?
That was the one I meant. This might help for scripture reference. I think the thread has what I meant about rewards. But anyway I just popped in to say hi. Forums are not what they used to be. It's sad.
http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?3829-Predestination-in-the-Wisdom-of-God

DOCTRINE of SANCTIFICATION

1 Corinthians 1
Greeting
1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Glory Only in the Lord

26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God?and righteousness and sanctification and redemption? 31 that, as it is written, ?He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.?

SANTIFICATION= WHAT IT IS NOT
A) does not refer to improvement in practical holiness
-scripture reveals that the Father and the Son both sanctify themselves
B) doesn't imply a state of holiness in which it is impossible to sin

UNDERSTANDING "Sanctify" "holiness" "Saint"

>SANCTIFY= Set Apart (used 100 plus x in OT, 30 x in NT)

John 17:18-19
18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

(Jesus was set apart by the Father to do the work)
(The disciples were set apart by Jesus to continue to reveal the Father)

Hebrews 10:9
9 then He said, ?Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.?[a] He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

(Jesus set Himself apart totally and completely to the will of God)

>HOLY= Set apart from that which is unholy (used 400 plus x OT. 12 X NT)

Hebrews 7:26
26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who isholy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;

(Jesus Christ was set apart by not being guilty of sin)

>Saint= Child of God, set apart unto God (62 x in NT)

1 Corinthians 1:2
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

All 3 words have a common connotation, and they all signify that which is set apart to God.
All primarilly have to do with one's position, not one's experience or their practice.

THE DIVINE VIEWPOINT

God looks at His child, He sees His child as set apart unto Himself; He sees His child as being set apart from sin;He sees His child as one who is a saint, beloved of the Father. This, then, is our position.

tbc 3 aspects of the believer's sanctification etc
*************************************************

3 ASPECTS of the BELIEVER'S SACTIFICATION
(1 of 3)

Positional sanctification

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

(Separated from the practises that once characterized them)
(Apostle still had to correct many things, but God saw sanctity)

Hebrews 10:10
10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:14
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

(a finished work. Established position)
(We are His own)
****************************************************

DOCTRINE OF SANCTIFICATION

2) THE EXPERIENTIAL SIDE OF SANCTIFICATION

(let experience conform to position) (lateral move)

Romans 12
Living Sacrifices to God
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
(setting oneself apart to God)

Romans 6:13
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

(the Christian life depends upon the believer setting themselves apart by an act of their will so that they are controlled by the Spirit of God,)

(not control of sin,law or flesh)

(begins with act of presenting oneself to God and His control by the Spirit of God)

(result is Holy Spirit's empowerment to freedom from sin)

Romans 6:14-16
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one?s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?


1 John 2
1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.


(the spirit will reproduce in usHis own fruit)

manifested in:

2 Peter 3:18
18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

(sometimes referred to as progressive sanctification)

2 Corinthians 3:18
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.


3) ULTIMATE SANCTIFICATION

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that WHEN HE IS REVEALED, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Jude 1:25 To God our Savior,[a]
Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,

Both now and forever.
Amen.

Footnotes:
a-Jude 1:25 NU-Text reads To the only God our Savior.
b-Jude 1:25 NU-Text omits Who . . . is wise and adds Through Jesus Christ our Lord.
c-Jude 1:25 NU-Text adds Before all time.

*positional and ultimate*

Ephesians 5:26
26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

(anticipating that glorious time)

WORK OF TRI-UNE GOD

-GOD THE FATHER IS THE ONE WHO SANCTIFIES US- 1 THES 5;26
-THE SON SANCTIFIES US- EPH 5;26
-HOLY SPIRIT SANCTIFIES US- ROM 15;16
ALL ARE ACTIVE AGENTS IN OUR REDEMPTION

A- GOD THE FATHER PLANNED , CHOSE AND CALLED
B- GOD THE SON GAVE HIS LIFE FOR REDEMPTION
C- GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT APPLIES THE BENIFITS OF CHRIST'S REDEMPTION TO THOSE WHO ARE SANCTIFIED IN JESUS CHRIST

A- GOD SETS US APART TO HIMSELF
B- THE SON CLEANSED THOSE SET APART
C- HOLY SPIRIT SETS APART IN DAILY PRACTISE

1) SANCTIFIED IN JESUS CHRIST- 1 COR 1;2, 30
2) " BY WORD OF GOD - JOHN 17;17 EPH 5;6
3) " BY BLOOD - HEB 13;12
4) " BY THE CROSS - HEB 10;10 GAL 6;14
5) " BY FAITH - ACTS 26'18

(APPROPRIATED BY FAITH)

Acts 26:18
18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.
 

MoreCoffee

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Cassia, nothing is what it used to be. Nothing ever is.
 

MennoSota

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If my bible were as eviscerated as yours I would toss it in the bin. But Thanks be to God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, that it is not. All 73 books are intact. Equipped with the holy scriptures and the Catechism of the Catholic Church I fear none of your posts. In truth they are amusing. I get to watch you denounce things you can't even define. And you get to use your shiny new words - not so shiny or new to others but evidently really shiny for you - so it is a win win game eh? I get a good laugh and you can type in righteous indignation whenever I reply.

"such fun!"

:smirk:
If you just read your Bible without the faulty teaching of your church, you would be pointed on a better path. Let God's word speak above the words of your church. Sola Scriptura
 

MoreCoffee

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If you just read your Bible without the ... teaching of your church...

Strange as it may seem to you but the advice you give is the same advice that Arius gave to the Bishops who were about to meet at Nicea to decide if his teaching was heresy. In truth the bishops already knew that Arianism was heresy but they met to examine it and renounce it with reasons and references to Holy Tradition. I have a similar perspective on your posts because they contain a great many heresies.
 

MennoSota

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Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:15

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:14-15

The devil and demons, beast and false prophets are eternally condemned but sinners are not immortal their mortality does not take on immortality
Neither of these verses teach that eternal damnation ceases.

Revelation 20:12-15
[12]I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.
[13]The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.
[14]Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death.
[15]And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Thanks, however, for showing where you create your doctrine.
 

MennoSota

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Strange as it may seem to you but the advice you give is the same advice that Arius gave to the Bishops who were about to meet at Nicea to decide if his teaching was heresy. In truth the bishops already knew that Arianism was heresy but they met to examine it and renounce it with reasons and references to Holy Tradition. I have a similar perspective on your posts because they contain a great many heresies.
Augustine and crew denounced Pelagian, but today the RCC is fully Pelagian in doctrine.
 

Andrew

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Neither of these verses teach that eternal damnation ceases.

Revelation 20:12-15
[12]I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.
[13]The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.
[14]Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death.
[15]And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Thanks, however, for showing where you create your doctrine.
And the fire represents what?
 

MoreCoffee

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Augustine and crew denounced Pelagian, ...

Yes, saint Augustine denounced Pelagianism. Saint Augustine affirmed purgatory. St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (City of God XXI.24).


He would denounce Calvinism had it existed in his day.
 

Josiah

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Augustine and crew denounced Pelagian, but today the RCC is fully Pelagian in doctrine.

I'm not sure I agree that the RCC as a denomination is (at least officially); I think it is impossible to determine what the official RCC position is on justification (narrow). But MY experience is that MY Catholic teachers were very consistently at least semi-Pelegian and very synergistic in this issue. And their teaching of the unique, new RCC Dogma of Purgatory was understood and presented exclusively in the framework and with the assumption of Pelagianism. When the Cross is seen as insuffient.... when Christ is seen as an insuffient Savior... when justification (narrow) is seen not as Christ Alone but Jesus PLUS a whole lot of stuff YOU gotta do to save yourself.... when Jesus is just a helper or possibility-maker..... then Purgatory begins to be logical (if obviously not biblical). At least as it was taught to us, Purgatory is a LOGICAL theory that stems from Pelagianism and a sense that Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it and merit it.


Now.... I think in the way the East looks at things (the East knows NOTHING of Purgatory - a RCC theory developed and accepted long after the RCC split off from it).... SOMEHOW GOD MAKES us clean as we enter heaven. No place involved.... no punishment involved.... no time involved.... just a MYSTERIOUS MIRACLE of GOD as we are taken into heaven.... all because of Christ..... that is a THEORY (this is NOT dogma in the EOC) that I could live with, as a THEORY and not as doctrine. But that is not the RCC's unique, new Dogma of Purgatory. The EOC's isn't a "logical" extension of Pelagianism or a product of rejecting Christ as the Savior, it is simply an embrace that nothing unpure can enter heaven - NOTHING more, not ANYTHING more than that. And that not mandated or dogmatic or even official. THAT I could accept AS SUCH. But not this late Medieval Pelagian invention of Rome alone.



- Josiah
 
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