What is worship?

[Albion]

So your going to take what goes on in a person's heart out of the equation then and just make it about what I do. Never mind motives and intent. Really?

Nope. I would not--and did not--do that.

 

[Albion]

For those who are...in Christ Jesus. In yourself, you are still wretched. This is the whole point of Paul's dialogue in Romans 7.

Even as Christians we find that in our selves we continue to break the law of God. Paul cries out, "Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death?" Paul said that as a Christian. He knew that he, in himself was corrupt. But, in Christ we are made righteous.
Never fool yourself into imagining there is any good within us apart from God and his grace. There isn't anything. We are "as filthy rags" apart from Christ.

You seem to have confused (or comingled) our standing as it concerns redemption with our standing when it comes to (Christian) worship.

 

[MennoSota]

Romans 11 gives us insight into Romans 12:1.
Romans 11:5-36
[5]It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel have remained faithful because of God’s grace—his undeserved kindness in choosing them.
[6]And since it is through God’s kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God’s grace would not be what it really is—free and undeserved.
[7]So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have—the ones God has chosen—but the hearts of the rest were hardened.
[8]As the Scriptures say, “God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, *** and closed their ears so they do not hear.”
[9]Likewise, David said, “Let their bountiful table become a snare, *** a trap that makes them think all is well. Let their blessings cause them to stumble, *** and let them get what they deserve.
[10]Let their eyes go blind so they cannot see, *** and let their backs be bent forever.”
[11]Did God’s people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But he wanted his own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves.
[12]Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the people of Israel turned down God’s offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when they finally accept it.
[13]I am saying all this especially for you Gentiles. God has appointed me as the apostle to the Gentiles. I stress this,
[14]for I want somehow to make the people of Israel jealous of what you Gentiles have, so I might save some of them.
[15]For since their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, their acceptance will be even more wonderful. It will be life for those who were dead!
[16]And since Abraham and the other patriarchs were holy, their descendants will also be holy—just as the entire batch of dough is holy because the portion given as an offering is holy. For if the roots of the tree are holy, the branches will be, too.
[17]But some of these branches from Abraham’s tree—some of the people of Israel—have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree.
[18]But you must not brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. You are just a branch, not the root.
[19]“Well,” you may say, “those branches were broken off to make room for me.”
[20]Yes, but remember—those branches were broken off because they didn’t believe in Christ, and you are there because you do believe. So don’t think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen.
[21]For if God did not spare the original branches, he won’t spare you either.
[22]Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off.
[23]And if the people of Israel turn from their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, for God has the power to graft them back into the tree.
[24]You, by nature, were a branch cut from a wild olive tree. So if God was willing to do something contrary to nature by grafting you into his cultivated tree, he will be far more eager to graft the original branches back into the tree where they belong.
[25]I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ.
[26]And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, “The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, *** and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.
[27]And this is my covenant with them, *** that I will take away their sins.”
[28]Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
[29]For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.
[30]Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead.
[31]Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share in God’s mercy.
[32]For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
[33]Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
[34]For who can know the lord’s thoughts? *** Who knows enough to give him advice?
[35]And who has given him so much *** that he needs to pay it back?
[36]For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.

 

[MennoSota]

I'm kinda wondering if you know what reconciliation even means? Through Christ I have been reconciled to Him. Paul has said in numerous places in scripture that he wants believer to walk in a manner that is worthy of the Lord in all respects. Look in Colossians 1:9-10
"For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of HIs will in all spiritual wisdom andunderstanding so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respect, bearing fruit in every good work and increaseing in the knowledge of God;. . . ."
You notice that it says "walk in a manner worthy of the Lord". Paul would not pray for that if it were not possible.

Again in Ephesians 4:1 it says, "I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, entreat you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called."

The idea of "walking" referring to how the person lives their life. In other words, because a person is saved they are to live differently than the unsaved. That is what Romans 12:1 is telling them also. To not indulge in carnal sin and sins of the flesh and to live a life that is different.

What it sounds like you are proposing is some type of Gnosticism where it doesn't matter what we do in the flesh because it can't be redeemed anyway. Which is contrary to what the Bible teaches. He didn't just redeem part of me, but all of me.

No Gnosticism. We have physical bodies. I explained the struggle Paul presents in Romans 7. He calls himself a wretched man and asks the question of who will deliver him. (Remember, Paul is doing this as a reconciled man.) The answer is "Thanks to Jesus, there is now therefore no condemnation in Christ Jesus.
I once again point to being "In Christ."
My reason for doing this is because we are prone to imagining that God looks upon us in our natural selves and measures us on the balance. We then imagine that we have more good deeds than bad and thus we can present a good offering to God.
No. We cannot. We are, as Paul states, in conflict with the Spirit of God. We have nothing to offer in ourselves. What we offer is always "in Christ" and being "in Christ" it is holy and blameless.
Hopefully this clarifies my statements.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Romans 11 gives us insight into Romans 12:1.
...

You really do like long quotes from the bible. I did manage to read the whole of Romans before I posted Romans 12:1 "I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship."

 

[MennoSota]

You really do like long quotes from the bible. I did manage to read the whole of Romans before I posted Romans 12:1 "I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship."

You really enjoy leaving out context. If you understand the grafting being discussed in chapter 11 and our being a part of Israel, you will understand the same imagery being expressed in Romans 12:1.
Do you think we are actually Israel?

 

[MoreCoffee]

You really enjoy leaving out context. If you understand the grafting being discussed in chapter 11 and our being a part of Israel, you will understand the same imagery being expressed in Romans 12:1.
Do you think we are actually Israel?

What exactly in the context that you allege is missing changes the meaning of the words in Romans 12:1? Exactly what in the mention of the bodies of the faithful presented to God as a living sacrifice makes them unholy and unacceptable to God despite Paul writing that they are holy and acceptable to God?

 

[MennoSota]

What exactly in the context that you allege is missing changes the meaning of the words in Romans 12:1? Exactly what makes the mention of the bodies of the faithful presented to God as a living sacrifice makes them unholy and unacceptable to God despite Paul writing that they are holy and acceptable to God?

My point is that we must remember that it is only in Christ that our sacrifice is made acceptable. Outside of Christ our bodies are corrupt and wretched. Because we are grafted into Christ we can offer our selves as an acceptable offering. It is only "in Christ."
It is a foolish thing for us to imagine that we have "fixed" our selves because we have manufactured our own faith in Jesus. Such a faulty theology as that leads to self-righteousness.

 

[MoreCoffee]

My point is that we must remember that it is only in Christ that our sacrifice is made acceptable. Outside of Christ our bodies are corrupt and wretched. Because we are grafted into Christ we can offer our selves as an acceptable offering. It is only "in Christ."
It is a foolish thing for us to imagine that we have "fixed" our selves because we have manufactured our own faith in Jesus. Such a faulty theology as that leads to self-righteousness.

Your stated point is irrelevant to the statement in Romans 12:1. The faithful are to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God. Their bodies are not unholy and unacceptable to God. And since your former post claimed that the bodies of the faithful are both unholy and unacceptable to God it is clear that your teaching contradicts holy writ.

 

[MennoSota]

Your stated point is irrelevant to the statement in Romans 12:1. The faithful are to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God. Their bodies are not unholy and unacceptable to God. And since your former post claimed that the bodies of the faithful are both unholy and unacceptable to God it is clear that your teaching contradicts holy writ.

I have clarified. Your inability to accept my clarification is your problem, which ultimately comes from Rome's misguided idea that humans gain their salvation by conjuring up their own faith and living virtuous lives that out balance the bad decisions. It comes from the misguided idea that salvation is maintained by receiving the eucharist. This concept of works salvation makes it hard for you to grasp the spiritual nature of Romans 12:1 as it relates to being grafted into the body of Christ.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'll stick with what is written in holy scripture and continue following Paul's teaching to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship

 

[NewCreation435]

Nope. I would not--and did not--do that.

Yet, in an earlier post, you said it was an "act". All I'm saying is that there is more to it than that. Motive and intention matters.
Look at 1 Corinthians 13, where Paul lists all the things a person can do and if they don't do it in love then it doesn't mean a thing

 

[Albion]

Yet, in an earlier post, you said it was an "act". All I'm saying is that there is more to it than that.

I agree that it is, which is why I used that story about watching--just watching--a non-Christian religious service. But I do not agree that it is only to have a positive feeling about God as, for example, one might do while experiencing a beautiful sunset or something like that--what someone less tactful might call a "warm and fuzzy" feeling about God. In exchange for the dictionary definition of the word, I got back several posts that argued that worship is simply a positive mental or emotional attitude.

 

[MennoSota]

I'll stick with what is written in holy scripture and continue following Paul's teaching to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship

I'll stick with Romans 12:1, in context, and recognize the much bigger picture, which you seem to be missing.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Your body is not holy and it is not acceptable as an offering to God. It is a worthless reject.

To accept this is to ignore what is commanded. It is rather plain. Are we new creatures in Christ or are we not? If so, then:

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

If not, then we call Paul a liar as he has commanded the impossible of us.

 

[MennoSota]

To accept this is to ignore what is commanded. It is rather plain. Are we new creatures in Christ or are we not? If so, then:



If not, then we call Paul a liar as he has commanded the impossible of us.

In Christ is the key to your comment. My point is that outside of Christ we are wretched (which is what Paul calls himself in Romans 7), but in Christ we are made righteous. We glory in Christ alone. In ourselves we cannot possibly offer anything of value to God. Yet, we often think highly of ourselves and our societal position in a church. It's quite a worldly thing that we fall into.

 

[J.Money]

I agree with many posts that describe it as subjective. Worship is, in fact, defined differently by everyone. My opinion is that, specifically speaking about a worship service, worship is centered around Christ and the Eucharist. Although not all denominations believe in partaking the Eucharist every week, I think that the whole reason why we worship is to celebrate the death and resurrection of Christ.

Bonhoeffer describes this idea in the book "Life Together" when he states that all Christian communities come together to share in a common bond. The common bond is celebrating that Christ has defeated death and invited us to receive the gift of forgiveness.

Singing songs that celebrate God and preaching sermons that teach God's word are all aspects that (should) point toward what Christ has done for us.

In short, I think celebration is a good term to use when discussing the idea of worship.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[popsthebuilder]

Romans 11 gives us insight into Romans 12:1.
Romans 11:5-36
[5]It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel have remained faithful because of God’s grace—his undeserved kindness in choosing them.
[6]And since it is through God’s kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God’s grace would not be what it really is—free and undeserved.
[7]So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have—the ones God has chosen—but the hearts of the rest were hardened.
[8]As the Scriptures say, “God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, *** and closed their ears so they do not hear.”
[9]Likewise, David said, “Let their bountiful table become a snare, *** a trap that makes them think all is well. Let their blessings cause them to stumble, *** and let them get what they deserve.
[10]Let their eyes go blind so they cannot see, *** and let their backs be bent forever.”
[11]Did God’s people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But he wanted his own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves.
[12]Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the people of Israel turned down God’s offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when they finally accept it.
[13]I am saying all this especially for you Gentiles. God has appointed me as the apostle to the Gentiles. I stress this,
[14]for I want somehow to make the people of Israel jealous of what you Gentiles have, so I might save some of them.
[15]For since their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, their acceptance will be even more wonderful. It will be life for those who were dead!
[16]And since Abraham and the other patriarchs were holy, their descendants will also be holy—just as the entire batch of dough is holy because the portion given as an offering is holy. For if the roots of the tree are holy, the branches will be, too.
[17]But some of these branches from Abraham’s tree—some of the people of Israel—have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree.
[18]But you must not brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. You are just a branch, not the root.
[19]“Well,” you may say, “those branches were broken off to make room for me.”
[20]Yes, but remember—those branches were broken off because they didn’t believe in Christ, and you are there because you do believe. So don’t think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen.
[21]For if God did not spare the original branches, he won’t spare you either.
[22]Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off.
[23]And if the people of Israel turn from their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, for God has the power to graft them back into the tree.
[24]You, by nature, were a branch cut from a wild olive tree. So if God was willing to do something contrary to nature by grafting you into his cultivated tree, he will be far more eager to graft the original branches back into the tree where they belong.
[25]I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ.
[26]And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, “The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, *** and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.
[27]And this is my covenant with them, *** that I will take away their sins.”
[28]Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
[29]For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.
[30]Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead.
[31]Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share in God’s mercy.
[32]For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
[33]Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
[34]For who can know the lord’s thoughts? *** Who knows enough to give him advice?
[35]And who has given him so much *** that he needs to pay it back?
[36]For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.

Please do not add to scripture in order to propagate a particular doctrine; or for any reason whatsoever.

Divide your words, put them in brackets or hit enter or something.

Just advice.

peace

 

[popsthebuilder]

You really enjoy leaving out context. If you understand the grafting being discussed in chapter 11 and our being a part of Israel, you will understand the same imagery being expressed in Romans 12:1.
Do you think we are actually Israel?

Does scripture not say we are members of spiritual Israel?

 

[popsthebuilder]

I have clarified. Your inability to accept my clarification is your problem, which ultimately comes from Rome's misguided idea that humans gain their salvation by conjuring up their own faith and living virtuous lives that out balance the bad decisions. It comes from the misguided idea that salvation is maintained by receiving the eucharist. This concept of works salvation makes it hard for you to grasp the spiritual nature of Romans 12:1 as it relates to being grafted into the body of Christ.

So..... Uhm......being make righteous isn't actually being made righteous; kinda like we aren't actually Israel?