Where does faith come from?

[MennoSota]

I often here people say a human must repent, confess, and have faith in order to be saved.
Yet, Ephesians 2:1 says were dead in our trespasses and sins. Ephesians 2:5 says that God made us alive.
Ephesians 2:8-9 says that God extends grace and gives the gift of faith.

The order laid out for salvation is:
1) Dead man
2) God give life (salvation)
3) God gives the gift of faith.

How is it that people put the need for faith before God's work in making someone spiritually alive?

This gets at the bigger issue, which is the claim that humans are saved by exhibiting their free will in choosing God.
How can a dead man choose God?

 

[NewCreation435]

I don't have the chapter and verse in front of me, but Jesus told his disciples that nobody comes to the Father unless the Father first draws him to himself. People who think we can come to God on our own underestimate the depravity of our fallen nature in my opinion.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Where does faith come from?

I often here people say a human must repent, confess, and have faith in order to be saved.
Yet, Ephesians 2:1 says were dead in our trespasses and sins. Ephesians 2:5 says that God made us alive.
Ephesians 2:8-9 says that God extends grace and gives the gift of faith.

The order laid out for salvation is:
1) Dead man
2) God give life (salvation)
3) God gives the gift of faith.

How is it that people put the need for faith before God's work in making someone spiritually alive?

This gets at the bigger issue, which is the claim that humans are saved by exhibiting their free will in choosing God.
How can a dead man choose God?

The holy scriptures say that faith comes from what is heard. "Romans 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ."

 

[Imalive]

Faith comes by hearing of the Word of Jesus.
The sawyer saws and if it's good ground you get fruit.
If you believe w your heart and confess w your mouth that Jesus is Lord you will be saved. Speaking is the first work of faith. God doesn't forgive you if you don't ask.
How can a dead man choose God? No idea, but Paul could have chosen to say I'm not interested. He didn't cause God knew his heart. I've heard an atheist ex christian say: if God wants me saved He can do to me what He did to Paul. Sure, better leave the pig's den and go to Him yourself.

 

[MennoSota]

The holy scriptures say that "Romans 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ."

What can a dead man hear?
Hint: Think about Lazarus...

 

[MennoSota]

God doesn't forgive you if you don't ask.
How can a dead man choose God? No idea, but Paul could have chosen to say I'm not interested.

Paul never asked for forgiveness. (See Acts 9)
Paul was dead in his trespasses and sins until God chose him. Never do we hear Paul say "I could have chosen to say I'm not interested." Instead we read Paul telling people that God chose him. Paul tells us that God must make us alive.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What can a dead man hear?
Hint: Think about Lazarus...

You think that everybody who is not yet converted to Christ is a "dead man"?

 

[Imalive]

Paul never asked for forgiveness. (See Acts 9)
Paul was dead in his trespasses and sins until God chose him. Never do we hear Paul say "I could have chosen to say I'm not interested." Instead we read Paul telling people that God chose him. Paul tells us that God must make us alive.

The ones that heard Peter said: what must we do? Faith came by the Word, then they had to do something: repent and be baptized. It's weird that nowadays they don't teach that anymore. You can wait months before you even can get baptized. Torben Sondergaard teaches it and baptizes em immediately.

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The ones that heard Peter said: what must we do? Faith came by the Word, then they had to do something: repent and be baptized. It's weird that nowadays they don't teach that anymore. You can wait months before you even can get baptized. Torben Sondergaard teaches it and baptizes em immediately.

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Hearing the message is part of acquiring faith in Jesus Christ. If a person has never heard how will they believe?

Romans 10:5-21 Moses writes concerning the righteousness that comes from the law, that 'the person who does these things will live by them.' 6 But the righteousness that comes from faith says, 'Do not say in your heart, "Who will ascend into heaven?"' (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 'or "Who will descend into the abyss?"' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? 'The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart' (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. 11 The scripture says, 'No one who believes in him will be put to shame.' 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him. 13 For, 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.' 14 But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him? 15 And how are they to proclaim him unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!' 16 But not all have obeyed the good news; for Isaiah says, 'Lord, who has believed our message?' 17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ. 18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have; for 'Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.' 19 Again I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, 'I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.' 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, 'I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.' 21 But of Israel he says, 'All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.'
​

 

[Josiah]

Where does faith come from?

It is the gift of God. The Holy Spirit is especially so credited.

 

[MennoSota]

The ones that heard Peter said: what must we do? Faith came by the Word, then they had to do something: repent and be baptized. It's weird that nowadays they don't teach that anymore. You can wait months before you even can get baptized. Torben Sondergaard teaches it and baptizes em immediately.

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The Word is Yeshua, Jesus. It is not Peter, MennoSota or Imalive.
Paul was saved because God spoke and made him alive. Everyone that hears the Word (God) can be saved. All who imagine they are saved because they heard a preacher and wanted to imitate or follow the presciption listed by the preacher will not be saved...if the never heard the Word speak to them.

Repentance, baptism, etc., are all effects that happen due to the cause agent, the Word, making people come to life.

 

[MennoSota]

Hearing the message is part of acquiring faith in Jesus Christ. If a person has never heard how will they believe?

Romans 10:5-21 Moses writes concerning the righteousness that comes from the law, that 'the person who does these things will live by them.' 6 But the righteousness that comes from faith says, 'Do not say in your heart, "Who will ascend into heaven?"' (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 'or "Who will descend into the abyss?"' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? 'The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart' (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. 11 The scripture says, 'No one who believes in him will be put to shame.' 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him. 13 For, 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.' 14 But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him? 15 And how are they to proclaim him unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!' 16 But not all have obeyed the good news; for Isaiah says, 'Lord, who has believed our message?' 17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ. 18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have; for 'Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.' 19 Again I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, 'I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.' 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, 'I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.' 21 But of Israel he says, 'All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.'
​

True, but the only one the must hear is God. No other word has the power to give life to the dead and save.
If actual words from a human were needed, a deaf person would never be saved. A person with cognitive disability would never be saved.
The Word that is needed is God who can speak to anyone.

 

[MoreCoffee]

True, but the only one the must hear is God. No other word has the power to give life to the dead and save.
If actual words from a human were needed, a deaf person would never be saved. A person with cognitive disability would never be saved.
The Word that is needed is God who can speak to anyone.

The passages says it is the word of Christ that is to be heard. And since faith comes from hearing it follows that ears hear the word of Christ before the person hearing believes. The person believes after hearing the word of Christ. That is why it is unwise and unbiblical to say that one is saved by faith alone. The scriptures say one is saved by grace. Grace precedes belief just as hearing precedes understanding the message.

 

[MennoSota]

The passages says it is the word of Christ that is to be heard. And since faith comes from hearing it follows that ears hear the word of Christ before the person hearing believes. The person believes after hearing the word of Christ. That is why it is unwise and unbiblical to say that one is saved by faith alone. The scriptures say one is saved by grace. Grace precedes belief just as hearing precedes understanding the message.

Indeed. Salvation is by God's grace and God's grace alone. God chooses whom He will save. God chooses to whom He will speak the Word (____________ come forth!) Only God can raise someone from the dead, both physically and spiritually.

 

[Josiah]

The passages says it is the word of Christ that is to be heard. And since faith comes from hearing it follows that ears hear the word of Christ before the person hearing believes. The person believes after hearing the word of Christ. That is why it is unwise and unbiblical to say that one is saved by faith alone. The scriptures say one is saved by grace. Grace precedes belief just as hearing precedes understanding the message.

The Protestant view in justification (narrow) is: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. It's ONE undivided, inseparable doctrine.... and while it may "make sense" to embrace them as if in that order, God does this miracle in His way (there is mystery in the HOW). John 3:16. Yes, it is the doctrine the RC Denomination split itself over by excommunicating those who embraced it.

But back to the issue of the thread.....

 

[MoreCoffee]

Since faith comes from hearing the message of Jesus Christ (the word of Christ) has the answer to the thread's question been found or do we need more?

 

[Josiah]

Since faith comes from hearing the message of Jesus Christ (the word of Christ) has the answer to the thread's question been found or do we need more?

Faith comes from God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Faith comes from God.

I suppose there's a verse that says that, right?

:smirk:

 

[Josiah]

Yup.

Ephesians 2:8, etc., etc., etc., etc.

http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/07/is_faith_the_gift_of_god_what.php
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/gods-gift-of-faith/



As has been explained repeatedly to you, my friend, the DEAD can't do anything - they certainly cannot cause life. The problem for Catholics is that its synergistic pelagianism means that the dead cause the dead to live (not God) and thus Jesus really isn't the Savior - He's dethroned, stripped, made into a divine Helper or possibility-maker. Such is to make self big and Christ small. We've had that discussion and don't need to repeat it here.

Again, in justification (narrow), PROTESTANTS tend to believe that Jesus is the Savior and that Jesus does the saving. Not self. Not in whole, not in part.... now now, not ever. We point to the Cross, not to the mirror. We admit there is mystery involved in this divine MIRACLE of Life but all the credit goes exclusively to God: Again, we believe that Jesus is the Savior. IS. THE. SAVIOR. It's HIS work. HIS doing. HIS gift. HIS blessing. John 3:16. I know this is highly offensive to Catholics, it's the issue it choose to divide itself over and excommunicate Luther over, I understand all that, but such is our foundational disagreement. I'm pretty convinced there's nothing anyone can post to you, my friend and brother, that will accomplish anything on this point, it's simply a foundational disagreement.




I think brother Hans went way too far in these two videos (I'm not a big fan of satire anyway), but good points are made (ones you'd passionately disagree with):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0BGf0Aj-lg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXuHVg9Uudw



Blessings to you, brother...


- Josiah

 

[MennoSota]

Since faith comes from hearing the message of Jesus Christ (the word of Christ) has the answer to the thread's question been found or do we need more?

I thought you couldn't hear God speak in his Word.