Faith hope and charity

[MoreCoffee]

Faith is about belief, hope is about what one longs for and acts as a motive, love (also called charity) is about ... what exactly?

Catholics think of faith as intellectual assent.
Hope we know from what Paul says, it is what saves us. It is also about something we do not yet possess. He says who hopes for what he already has? The answer is obvious.
Love is ...

Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.​

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

Faith is about belief, hope is about what one long for and acts as a motive, love (also called charity) is about ... what exactly?

Catholics think of faith as intellectual assent.
Hope we know from what Paul says, it is what saves us. It is also about something we do not yet possess. He says who hopes for what he already has? The answer is obvious.
Love is ...

Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.​

Lutherans look at faith as not only an intellectual assent, but as that which applies the promises of the Gospel to the individual. Faith leads to love, which is manifested in good works to our neighbor.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Lutherans look at faith as not only an intellectual assent, but as that which applies the promises of the Gospel to the individual. Faith leads to love, which is manifested in good works to our neighbor.

Yes, Peter Kreeft says as much and the joint declaration on Justification between some Lutherans and the Catholic Church observed the difference in vocabulary.

 

[Josiah]

Here's the actual verse, First Corinthians 13:13, "So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love."

The context here is SANCTIFICATION, how the justified, as Christians, as the Body of Christ, as imitators of Jesus, are to live. The response to justification.

"FAITH" Here I suspect MC is right, it probably does refer to cognative embrace and assent to teachings (what Protestants are apt to call "belief" or "assent"). But it's possible that also means faith in the sense of trust, reliance - the justification meaning. That works too because while such has value (hey, we are saved by faith!!!), and while ConfessionalLutheran is right that true love flows from this, in and of itself - it doesn't necessary mean I love my neighbor (I had faith when I was one minute old and not breathing...... that didn't mean I was actively serving, blessing, loving those in the operating room by my deeds).

"HOPE." We don't talk enough about this. IMO, this too flows from faith (as trust, from being in connection "in" Christ) but it's also distinctive from that. Hope is a confidence in what is yet ahead. Leaders have often understood the AMAZING power and life changing effect of hope! I think of Winston Churchill, Franklin Roosevelt, Martin Luther King, even President Obama who STRESSED and give people hope (as did Adolf Hitler, btw). One of my fave examples is Ernest Shackelton (If you haven't head his story from a century ago, it is the most remarkable example of how HOPE changes people). I think too of all those Negro Spirituals from the days of slavery and the "hope in Christ" that gave him life and strength, and so changed their daily living.

"LOVE". Pauls' whole point is OBVIOUSLY that love DOES stuff; it's not just an emotion (however sincere and heart felt) it ACTS. In giving, blessing, serving, concrete, even sacrificial ways. Think Jesus on the Cross. The Catholics on the KJV committee insisted the word be translated to "charity" and I think they were right (so did Luther; he does the same in German); "charity" carries the connotation of acts whereas "love" can convey just a feeling or desire

In our Christian LIVING, in our quest to be more Christ-like, love is the greatest. Just as it was for Christ himself.



Pax Christi


- Josiah



.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I was thinking about the vocabulary difference, Josiah. So I chose the thread title not so much as a partial quote from First Corinthians but more as a recognition that vocabulary can play a major role in disputes.

Paul wrote about hope - In hope, we already have salvation; in hope, not visibly present, or we should not be hoping -- nobody goes on hoping for something which is already visible. But having this hope for what we cannot yet see, we are able to wait for it with persevering confidence.

Love was described by Paul in the quote in my previous post.

Faith is belief in the scriptures. Demons believe (and shiver in fear). Christians believe in hope working by love.

 

[Josiah]

I was thinking about the vocabulary difference, Josiah. So I chose the thread title not so much as a partial quote from First Corinthians but more as a recognition that vocabulary can play a major role in disputes.

Paul wrote about hope - In hope, we already have salvation; in hope, not visibly present, or we should not be hoping -- nobody goes on hoping for something which is already visible. But having this hope for what we cannot yet see, we are able to wait for it with persevering confidence.

Love was described by Paul in the quote in my previous post.

Faith is belief in the scriptures. Demons believe (and shiver in fear). Christians believe in hope working by love.

Maybe you titled this thread wrong and wrongly wrote the opening post.....

I don't deny but very much agree that Christians often "trip up" over words and not infrequently use the same words but mean very different things by them. I don't know how that is Paul's point in First Corinthians 13:13 or how that is the point of "The Love Chapter."

I agree with you that "faith" CAN (and occasionally does) mean the corpus of what one believes or holds to be factual). In that sense, the Devil has faith (although the word Scripture uses is not faith). Again, it's important to note the context and subject of the verse (and its words) in question: In First Corinthians 13, the context clearly is sanctification (not justification) and that should be kept in mind.

Yes, CHRISTIANS (thus we're not talking about becoming justifiied in the narrow sense but those already such) do embrace Christian hope and yes they are called to ACTS of charity - blessing, caring, serving, giving, sacrificing for others, even as Christ did for us. The Great Commandment applies, and yes, it was given to Christians - the Justified (in this narrow sense).

See post #4 for my reply to your thread. You certain may or may not respond to it.

 

[MennoSota]

Faith is about belief, hope is about what one longs for and acts as a motive, love (also called charity) is about ... what exactly?

Catholics think of faith as intellectual assent.
Hope we know from what Paul says, it is what saves us. It is also about something we do not yet possess. He says who hopes for what he already has? The answer is obvious.
Love is ...

Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.​

Catholics have a wrong concept of faith as you just laid it out.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says:
For by grace you have been saved, through faith, which is not of your self, but is a gift from God so that no one can boast.

Faith can not, therefore, be "intellectual assent."

Faith is a gift of God. What does this gift of God provide to the child of God? We find the answer in Hebrews 11:1.

"Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see."

 

[MoreCoffee]

Catholics have a wrong concept of faith as you just laid it out.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says:
For by grace you have been saved, through [belief], which is not of your self, but is a gift from God so that no one can boast.

Faith can not, therefore, be "intellectual assent."

Faith is a gift of God. What does this gift of God provide to the child of God? We find the answer in Hebrews 11:1.

"Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see."

You may be reading into the word "faith" things that are not included in the definition of the word in Greek.

πίστις
pístis; gen. písteōs, fem. noun from peíthō (G3982), to win over, persuade. Faith. Subjectively meaning firm persuasion, conviction, belief in the truth, veracity, reality or faithfulness (though rare). Objectively meaning that which is believed, doctrine, the received articles of faith.​

 

[MennoSota]

You may be reading into the word "faith" things that are not included in the definition of the word in Greek.

πίστις
pístis; gen. písteōs, fem. noun from peíthō (G3982), to win over, persuade. Faith. Subjectively meaning firm persuasion, conviction, belief in the truth, veracity, reality or faithfulness (though rare). Objectively meaning that which is believed, doctrine, the received articles of faith.​

You may be ignoring Ephesians 2:8-9 and Hebrews 11:1.
What does the Bible say?
You cannot have saving faith unless God graciously gives you the gift of faith.
It is not an intellectual assent. The Bible says the Greeks found the gospel to be foolish and Jews demanded a sign. Thus, intellectual assent will never save you. In fact, the Bible says that no one will seek God, not even one. Intellectual assent is not faith. The Bible is very clear on this.

 

[Imalive]

I was thinking about the vocabulary difference, Josiah. So I chose the thread title not so much as a partial quote from First Corinthians but more as a recognition that vocabulary can play a major role in disputes.

Paul wrote about hope - In hope, we already have salvation; in hope, not visibly present, or we should not be hoping -- nobody goes on hoping for something which is already visible. But having this hope for what we cannot yet see, we are able to wait for it with persevering confidence.

Love was described by Paul in the quote in my previous post.

Faith is belief in the scriptures. Demons believe (and shiver in fear). Christians believe in hope working by love.

Hope working by love?
It's faith working through love.
Gal. 5:6

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

 

[Imalive]

I was thinking about the vocabulary difference, Josiah. So I chose the thread title not so much as a partial quote from First Corinthians but more as a recognition that vocabulary can play a major role in disputes.

Paul wrote about hope - In hope, we already have salvation; in hope, not visibly present, or we should not be hoping -- nobody goes on hoping for something which is already visible. But having this hope for what we cannot yet see, we are able to wait for it with persevering confidence.

Love was described by Paul in the quote in my previous post.

Faith is belief in the scriptures. Demons believe (and shiver in fear). Christians believe in hope working by love.

Hope working by love?
It's faith working through love.
Gal. 5:6

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

 

[Imalive]

You may be reading into the word "faith" things that are not included in the definition of the word in Greek.

πίστις
pístis; gen. písteōs, fem. noun from peíthō (G3982), to win over, persuade. Faith. Subjectively meaning firm persuasion, conviction, belief in the truth, veracity, reality or faithfulness (though rare). Objectively meaning that which is believed, doctrine, the received articles of faith.​

I think Hebrews 11 describes faith better.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

 

[Imalive]

You may be reading into the word "faith" things that are not included in the definition of the word in Greek.

πίστις
pístis; gen. písteōs, fem. noun from peíthō (G3982), to win over, persuade. Faith. Subjectively meaning firm persuasion, conviction, belief in the truth, veracity, reality or faithfulness (though rare). Objectively meaning that which is believed, doctrine, the received articles of faith.​

I think Hebrews 11 describes faith better.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

 

[Imalive]

Faith is about belief, hope is about what one longs for and acts as a motive, love (also called charity) is about ... what exactly?

Catholics think of faith as intellectual assent.
Hope we know from what Paul says, it is what saves us. It is also about something we do not yet possess. He says who hopes for what he already has? The answer is obvious.
Love is ...

Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.​

Charity is caring for the poor or giving money. It is normally a work inspired by love, but doesn't have to be. There are ppl who give money to the poor to feel less guilty about the private jet in their backyard.
Love: love God and your neighbour. Love w out charity is no love. I was in prison and you didn't visit me.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I was thinking about the vocabulary difference, Josiah. So I chose the thread title not so much as a partial quote from First Corinthians but more as a recognition that vocabulary can play a major role in disputes.

Paul wrote about hope - In hope, we already have salvation; in hope, not visibly present, or we should not be hoping -- nobody goes on hoping for something which is already visible. But having this hope for what we cannot yet see, we are able to wait for it with persevering confidence.

Love was described by Paul in the quote in my previous post.

Faith is belief in the scriptures. Demons believe (and shiver in fear). Christians believe in hope working by love.

Hope working by love?
It's faith working through love.
Gal. 5:6

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

I left out some punctuation. Here is what the last sentence with proper punctuation says Faith is "belief" in the scriptures. Demons believe (and shiver in fear). Christians believe, in hope, working by love. and it means Faith in English is translated from a Greek word (πίστις) in the new testament scriptures that means "belief". Demons believe (the same word that is translated "faith" elsewhere) and shiver because of the inevitable and fearful judgement that they will face on the last day. Christians believe working out their beliefs in love and with the hope of final salvation as their goal.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Charity is caring for the poor or giving money. It is normally a work inspired by love, but doesn't have to be. There are ppl who give money to the poor to feel less guilty about the private jet in their backyard.
Love: love God and your neighbour. Love w out charity is no love. I was in prison and you didn't visit me.

In English bibles from a few centuries ago "charity" was used as if it meant "love" but nowadays English bibles use "love" and avoid "charity" in First Corinthians chapter thirteen.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Please, read the following quote and then tell me what you think of each of its salient points. It does not come from a Catholic source nor is it from an Orthodox source.

FAITH

The word “faith” is translated from the Greek piʹstis, primarily conveying the thought of confidence, trust, firm persuasion. Depending on the context, the Greek word may also be understood to mean “faithfulness” or “fidelity.”—1Th 3:7; Tit 2:10.

The Scriptures tell us: “Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of unseen realities.” (Heb 11:1) “Assured expectation” translates the Greek word hy·poʹsta·sis. This term is common in ancient papyrus business documents. It conveys the idea of something that underlies visible conditions and guarantees a future possession. In view of this, Moulton and Milligan suggest the rendering: “Faith is the title deed of things hoped for.” (Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, 1963, p.660) The Greek word eʹleg·khos, rendered “evident demonstration,” conveys the idea of bringing forth evidence that demonstrates something, particularly something contrary to what appears to be the case. Thereby this evidence makes clear what has not been discerned before and so refutes what has only appeared to be the case. “The evident demonstration,” or evidence for conviction, is so positive or powerful that faith is said to be it.

Faith is, therefore, the basis for hope and the evidence for conviction concerning unseen realities. The entire body of truths delivered by Jesus Christ and his inspired disciples constitutes the Christian “faith.” (Joh 18:37; Ga 1:7-9; Ac 6:7; 1Ti 5:8) Christian faith is based on the whole of the holy scriptures, including the Old Testament Scriptures (written mainly in Hebrew but also some portions are wrtten in Aramaic), to which Jesus and the writers of the New Testament Scriptures (written entirely in Greek except for a few phrases written with Greek letters but spelling out Hebrew or Aramaic words) frequently referred in support of their statements.

Faith is based on concrete evidence. The visible creative works testify to the existence of an invisible Creator. (Ro 1:20) The actual occurrences taking place during the ministry and earthly life of Jesus Christ identify him as the Son of God. (Mt 27:54; see JESUS CHRIST.) God’s record of providing for his earthly creatures serves as a valid basis for believing that he will surely provide for his servants, and his record as a Giver and Restorer of life lends ample evidence to the credibility of the resurrection hope. (Mt 6:26, 30, 33; Ac 17:31; 1Co 15:3-8, 20, 21) Furthermore, the reliability of God’s Word and the accurate fulfillment of its prophecies instill confidence in the realization of all of His promises. (Jos 23:14) Thus, in these many ways, “faith follows the thing heard.”—Ro 10:17; compare Joh 4:7-30, 39-42; Ac 14:8-10.

So faith is not credulity. People who may ridicule faith usually have faith in tried and trusted friends. The scientist has faith in the principles of their branch of science. They bases new experiments on past discoveries and look for new discoveries on the basis of those things already established as true. Likewise, the farmer prepares the soil and sows seed, expecting, as in previous years, that the seed will sprout and that the plants will grow as they receive moisture and sunshine. Therefore faith in the stability of the natural laws governing the universe actually constitutes a foundation for humanity's plans and activities. Such stability is alluded to by the wise writer of Ecclesiastes: “The sun also rises, and the sun sets, and it races to its place where it started. The wind goes to the south, and it circles around to the north. Round and round it continually circles, right back to where it began. All the winter streams go forth to the sea, yet the sea is not full. To the place where the winter streams started they return and go forth again.”—Ec 1:5-7.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word ʼa·manʹ and other words closely related convey the sense of trustworthiness, faithfulness, steadiness, steadfastness, being firmly established, long-lasting. (Ex 17:12; De 28:59; 1Sa 2:35; 2Sa 7:16; Ps 37:3) One related noun (ʼemethʹ) usually denotes “truth,” but also “faithfulness” or “trustworthiness.” (2Ch 15:3; 2Sa 15:20; compare Ne 7:2.) The familiar term “Amen” (Heb., ʼa·menʹ) also comes from ʼa·manʹ.​