"Do you love God?" or is the "you" in that question self salvation?

MoreCoffee

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"Do you love God?" or is the "you" in that question self salvation?

Some complain that the idea that a Christian can do anything to save themselves is utterly unchristian and that everything is done by Christ in his saving work which cannot be added to by anything that a human being does themselves even if they say "By God's grace in me I work the works of God and By God's grace in me I love God" so what is your view about the question "Do you love God?"
 

Josiah

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"Salvation" of course CAN be used variously. When Protestants use it, we do so typically in the sense of justification (narrow) quite distinct from sanctification (narrow). I do realize that the Bible CAN (and occasionally) does use the term in a broader sense that includes both. So, looking at this in the precise, theological sense..... in the sense of justification (narrow)..... here's the relevant point:


Answer this: WHO is THE Savior (in this sense of justification)?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you. It's not a case of you loving God but God loving you (John 3:16, etc., etc., etc.)

IF you answer "ME!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you. The issue would be how much you love God, how much you do for God, how such merit you've accomplished.

Which is it? Try answering that. If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place.



So, in justification, the issue is God's love for us, God's mercy and favor and blessings and gifts to us, what God did/does for us.


But change the topic...... go to something different...... switch the conversation to sanctification (narrow): OUR response to GOD's mercy/gifts/blessings...... and yes, it becomes about us (empowered by God), and yes, our love (always an ACTIVE rather than emotional reality) becomes central. Peter's love for God is not why he was justified, but once justified, Jesus does asked him if he loves Him.



Pax Christi



- Josiah
 

Josiah

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When the issue is justification (narrow) - what Protestants mean by "salvation" - then there is ONE and only ONE great Truth: Jesus is the Savior. JESUS! Not me, not you, not the Pope, not the RCC or LDS denominations. Not now, not ever. Not a bit. Not in whole, not in part. JESUS saves us. JESUS!!! We are saved by virtue of GOD'S love, mercy. We are saved by virtue of JESUS - His life, His death, His resurrection... His obedience, His righteousness, His perfection, His holiness.... His works, His accomplishments, His merits..... His cross, His blood, His works. Not mine. Not yours. Not now, not ever. Not a bit, not at all. Because we are CHRISTians and we believe that JESUS is the SAVIOR (and thus NOT me.... the job is taken), salvation is the result of JESUS - not me, not you.


Now, it's undeniably and biblicly true that we are mandated to be PERFECT exactly as and to the same extent that God Himself is. Yup. And don't water that down to nothingness! it's undeniably and biblicly true that we are mandated to be HOLY exactly as and to the same extent that God Himself is. Yup. And don't water that down to nothingness! it's undeniably and biblicly true that we are mandated to be OBEDIENT exactly as and to the same extent that God Himself is. Yup. And don't water that down to nothingness! it's undeniably and biblicly true that we are mandated to be LOVING exactly as and to the same extent that God Himself is on the Cross. Yup. And don't water that down to nothingness! it's undeniably and biblicly true that we are mandated to be RIGHTEOUS exactly as and to the same extent that God Himself is. Yup. And don't water that down to nothingness! All true.... ALL TRUE.... even more so than most detractors of the Gospel state, even more so than those who confuse things state.... NO! The Law is NOT "try really hard - and that will do." It's NOT the Mormon theology from the Book of Mormon: "Try your best and God will overlook the rest." It's NOT the Jewish, Muslim and Bhakti Hindu teaching that God sufficiently empowers us to eventually be good enough but we gotta "tap" this empowering to our credit. No. It's BE PERFECT - 100% - all the time - from the moment of conception to the moment of death (and beyond). It's LOVE just a much as Jesus died as He died for us on the Cross - 100% - all the time. Yes. That's Christian. That's biblical.


THE PROBLEM COMES WHEN THE TWO ARE CONFUSED. When either the Gospel is used to eliminate the Law or the Law is used to eliminate the Gospel. When one is made subject to the other. When one (or typically BOTH) is watered-down to next to nothing. When CHRISTIAN teachings are abandoned and what is proclaimed is a confused, entangled, blended MESS that essentially holds that we save ourselves by sorta, kinda, in a tiny way KEEPING the Law and thus not needing God or mercy or forgiveness or The SAVIOR - we just need sufficient time and help so we can save ourselves. News flash: "Do your best and God will overlook the rest" comes from the Book of Mormon, NOT THE BIBLE! It is a foundational teaching of ISLAM, not Christianity. It renders Christ a joke. It negates the Gospel. It destroys CHRISTianity.



HERE'S THE REALITY: We are justified (narrow) - "saved" to use the usual Protestant terminology - by CHRIST, which is why we are CHRISTians and not modern Jews or Muslims or Bhakti Hindus. NOT, NOT, NOT by our own puny attempts to sort of, kind of, not really do what God commands ( being PERFECT, being HOLY, being LOVING, being RIGHTEOUS) - making Christ a waste of time, a bad joke, His blood just an unfortunately consequence of Roman politics and Jewish egoism. When we proclaim JESUS as THE Savior that means that JESUS is THE Savior. Not SELF is the Savior of self because it depends on what self does..... Not Jesus is PART Savior but the really important part is ME.... Not Jesus is the POSSIBILITY-MAKER but not SAVIOR. Not Jesus is the HELPER who empowered SELF to sorta save self but not the SAVIOR. But.... but..... but..... just because we are saved is not a license to sin, is not an exemption from the Law. The Gospel does not negate the Law just as the Law does not negate the Gospel. Just don't CONFUSE the two..... blend the two..... water down the two..... cancel one in view of the other. BOTH are true! Yes, Christians are STILL commanded to be absolutely, totally, constantly, divinely PERFECT, HOLY, LOVING, OBEDIENT, RIGHTEOUS.... in fact, Christians have MORE law because each of us also has to make disciples of every living human on the planet earth, a MANDATE given to each Christian (not a sort of suggestion we are expected to ignore). BUT, BUT, BUT...... our NOT doing what we are commanded to do does not save us. Nor need it - since we are CHRISTians and thus have The SAVIOR who forgives...... saves.


When the two are CONFUSED, you end up promoting modern Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism - and destroying (or at least greatly endangering) the VERY POINT of CHRISTianity: we NEED saving..... we have the SAVIOR. When CHRISTianity is abandoned and in it's place we echo MORMONISM'S "Do your best and God will overlook the rest" (it comes from the Book of Mormon AND the Koran - not, not, repeat NOT from the Christian Bible!), then Houston - we have a very big problem. When CHRISTianity is abandoned and in its place we echo BHAKTI HINDUISM's "God helps us because good enough - we just gotta tap that help and do it" (which comes from BHAKTI HINDUISM, not the Christian Bible!), then Houston - we have a very big problem.



Yes..... LOTS of things are true. Just don't confuse the application of those. Yes, it's true that a car needs some kind of a power-plant (engine, motor, whatever) AND brakes. But they do NOT have the same function, they do NOT supply the same thing. Saying, "you gotta apply the brakes to make the car go" is wrong. True - brakes and engine are needed - but not for the same thing. Brakes do not make the car go. They are necessary - but not for propulsion. When the topic is propulsion, it's confusing at best to mention (dwell!!!) on brakes! Especially when this dwelling is to diminish the role of the engine. Follow?



Example: I was born (by C-Section) on January 23, 1988. I had nothing to do with it. I did not give myself life (God did - mediately via my parents). I did not cause myself to live (God did). I didn't not cause myself to be a human being. I did not cause myself to be born. All these were GIFTS to me..... GIVEN to me.... the "work" of OTHERS. BUT, once I was born (and thus FULLY a human!!!!! FULLY a human!!!!!!) almost immediately, I was called to grow, to mature, to become a civil (not necessarily PERFECT), contributing, responsible, caring person (a process I'm still working on, lol). BOTH are true! What is NOT true is: "I'm alive because I was a good enough student." "I'm a human because I usually obeyed by parents." "I breathe because I have a good job." Do you see how false that is, how misleading it is, how it destroys the affirmation that God GIVES life, that we are a creation of God? In the same way, insisting we are saved BECAUSE we sorta, kinda TRY to keep the Law (but fail)....... insisting that we are saved because of OUR works, OUR accomplishments, OUR surrendering, OUR trying, OUR.... OUR...... OUR...... is absurd, confusing, and just plain WRONG. And of course, an abandonment of CHRISTianity.



When the discussion is justification (narrow) - "salvation" in Protestant parlance - then the ONLY thing to mention is CHRIST, who is THE one and only and exclusive SAVIOR. He GIVES salvation. He GIVES spiritual life. He BESTOWS on us the position of Christian, child of God. ANY mention of self - of self being good enough, of self trying sorta, kinda, sometimes hard enough - that ( at best) confuses things and far, far, far more likely - destroys Christianity and promotes instead Mormonism, modern Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism. Such may be unintentional but it's exactly, precisely what happens, what results.




Nothing is more important.....



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah




.
 

Imalive

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Some complain that the idea that a Christian can do anything to save themselves is utterly unchristian and that everything is done by Christ in his saving work which cannot be added to by anything that a human being does themselves even if they say "By God's grace in me I work the works of God and By God's grace in me I love God" so what is your view about the question "Do you love God?"

Self doesn't love God. Self hates God. So self has to die.
 

NewCreation435

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In 1 John 4:19 it says, "We love, because He first loved us." The very ability to love God at all comes not from within myself, but from God. God is love and our ability to love comes from him. So, in that sense it is not something that we did but that God did in us.
This love is primary, for without it then it would be impossible to keep His commandments because the first two commands to love God and to love others are first and foremost about love.
So, I have a question for you. Why is it then that so many so called christians act in such unloving and judgmental ways?
 

MoreCoffee

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I can't help but remember Jesus saying to Peter "do you love me?". He said it three times. The reply was "yes" with variant additions. Do you think Peter loved Jesus or was Peter not participating in the love which was wholly and completely the work of Christ (presumably in Peter)?
 

Josiah

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I can't help but remember Jesus saying to Peter "do you love me?". He said it three times. The reply was "yes" with variant additions. Do you think Peter loved Jesus or was Peter not participating in the love which was wholly and completely the work of Christ (presumably in Peter)?


See posts # 2 and 3.


I think Jesus FIRST loved Peter. Peter was given justification (narrow), forgiveness, the Holy Spirit. THEN.... as an aspect of sanctification (narrow), Peter was asked if he (in return) loved Jesus. OUR response of love for God follows God's love for us, it is a response and not a cause. I love my parents.... but then they loved me before I was even born; I learned to love from them.
 

MoreCoffee

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I think Jesus FIRST loved Peter. Peter was given justification (narrow), forgiveness, the Holy Spirit. THEN.... as an aspect of sanctification (narrow), Peter was asked if he (in return) loved Jesus. OUR response of love for God follows God's love for us, it is a response and not a cause. I love my parents.... but then they loved me before I was even born; I learned to love from them.

The question here is not who came first but rather who participated. Was Peter a participant or was it all Jesus and no Peter. John 21:15-19 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. 19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
 

Josiah

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The question here is not who came first but rather who participated. Was Peter a participant or was it all Jesus and no Peter.


In justification (narrow) it's ALL Jesus. Otherwise, Jesus is not the Savior and the foundational, central point of Christianity has been denied and the essential soteriology of Islam, Judaism, and some forms of Hinduism have been substituted.

In sanctification (narrow) it's synergistic - God empowers and we perform.

Thus, Peter was FIRST loved by God, blessed by God, gifted by God, justified by God. THEN, as a part of sanctification, as a RESPONSE, Peter (imperfectly, flawed) reflected that love - not so that God would love/bless him but BECAUSE God did/does.




ohn 21:15-19 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. 19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.


You might want to remember that Christians generally conclude that Peter was already a Christian at this point. Perhaps you disagree. And no one can "follow" Jesus if they don't recognize Him and know/believe who He is. Follow is a response.


See posts # 2 and 3



Pax Christi


- Josiah




.
 

Lamb

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We are all enemies of God until the Gospel creates in us new life in Christ. Romans 5:10 "For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"

Enemies don't love.

We love God but that isn't our salvation since the Christ who died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins is our salvation. We love God because He first loved us. We love God because that is our response now that we are believers. Our response isn't what saves.
 

MoreCoffee

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Catholics don't do narrow words when speaking (or writing) of justification and sanctification. Maybe that's what went wrong with Luther and Calvin. They got too narrow and constricted their theology to death :p
 

Josiah

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Some like to be loose and sloppy with Law and Gospel, man and God, sanctification and justification - it permits self to be large and Christ to be small, it allows self to pat self on the back, it allows people to fear their salvation and thus denominations to use that to gain power.

See posts 2 and 3
 

MoreCoffee

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Odd that you should write that Josiah, the writers of the gospels and the catholic epistles in the new testament also liked to be loose and sloppy about this law and gospel dichotomy you write of so often. Paul also was loose and sloppy on that matter. Luther was keen on it I presume from what you've written but Calvin was not nor were the English protestants who created the church of England under the headship of the king. But these matters are not quite an answer to the question "Do you love God?" or is the "you" in that question self salvation?
 

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Some complain that the idea that a Christian can do anything to save themselves is utterly unchristian and that everything is done by Christ in his saving work which cannot be added to by anything that a human being does themselves even if they say "By God's grace in me I work the works of God and By God's grace in me I love God" so what is your view about the question "Do you love God?"
I love God and I feel he gives people the abilities they have like doctors, etc., regular people too!
 

popsthebuilder

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The question here is not who came first but rather who participated. Was Peter a participant or was it all Jesus and no Peter. John 21:15-19 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. 19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
Seems pretty obvious that Jesus meant that if any love Christ/ GOD, then they would follow HIM as a result. What sort of love and or faithfulness is it when one just says they love you, or when you simply say you love them? Isn't love and the intent of the heart shown through the deeds of the hands, and the words of the mouth?
 

Imalive

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Seems pretty obvious that Jesus meant that if any love Christ/ GOD, then they would follow HIM as a result. What sort of love and or faithfulness is it when one just says they love you, or when you simply say you love them? Isn't love and the intent of the heart shown through the deeds of the hands, and the words of the mouth?

My dad never says he loves me. He's not good at saying such stuff, slimy. But I told em last week: I've dated so many guys and the only man who's actually interested in me and the kids and makes offers to give us money, so the kids can live nice, is dad.
 
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