I'm morally good. Am I righteous?

[ImaginaryDay2]

*This scenario is completely out of the OP's imagination. Any resemblance to your life means that I have been spying on you, and you're caught!

I am a morally good person. Many people have said so. They say I have a good "moral compass". I don't drink, smoke, use drugs. I give to the poor through local charities. My friends call me easy going, not one to get upset or yell, scream, be abusive. I have a wife and three kids whom I adore, and a great dog named "spot".
I have friends who are Christian, but I don't have any real faith that I adhere to. I'm spiritual, though. I think there's some "thing" out there that we'll never be able to put our finger on. And it helps keep me humble. My Christian friends don't make too much fuss about this, because they understand that I'm really not too concerned about what'll happen "after". I'm a "now" person, and now seems pretty good.

Am I righteous?

 

[MoreCoffee]

*This scenario is completely out of the OP's imagination. Any resemblance to your life means that I have been spying on you, and you're caught!

I am a morally good person. Many people have said so. They say I have a good "moral compass". I don't drink, smoke, use drugs. I give to the poor through local charities. My friends call me easy going, not one to get upset or yell, scream, be abusive. I have a wife and three kids whom I adore, and a great dog named "spot".
I have friends who are Christian, but I don't have any real faith that I adhere to. I'm spiritual, though. I think there's some "thing" out there that we'll never be able to put our finger on. And it helps keep me humble. My Christian friends don't make too much fuss about this, because they understand that I'm really not too concerned about what'll happen "after". I'm a "now" person, and now seems pretty good.

Am I righteous?

Comfy perhaps, self satisfied maybe. Christians who adhere to all sorts of theology would likely say that you're not righteous. What do you think?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

This came up from a discussion that's being had at the "other place". One poster would hold that their friends are righteous due to their righteous and moral acts, and behaving the same as one who has the fruit of the Spirit, without necessarily having the Spirit of Christ. I.e. - They have the qualities of love, joy, peace, etc., and this "proves" their inherent righteousness. To me, it might show (as I noted in the OP) that one can have a good moral compass, and act in a benevolent manner, but true righteousness is the righteousness that comes only from Christ.

 

[MoreCoffee]

This came up from a discussion that's being had at the "other place". One poster would hold that their friends are righteous due to their righteous and moral acts, and behaving the same as one who has the fruit of the Spirit, without necessarily having the Spirit of Christ. I.e. - They have the qualities of love, joy, peace, etc., and this "proves" their inherent righteousness. To me, it might show (as I noted in the OP) that one can have a good moral compass, and act in a benevolent manner, but true righteousness is the righteousness that comes only from Christ.

Didn't saint Paul say that gentiles who do not know God can (and sometimes do) do what the Law commands and thus are examples that self righteous Jews ought to note and amend their behaviour so that God is not ill spoken of because of the Jews' bad behaviour?

For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Romans 2:11-29​

 

[Imalive]

Noone is good but God alone.
I've seen people say how morally good they are as atheists (ex christians) and how Gods morality is inferior to theirs. Ehmmmm

 

[psalms 91]

Abraham was righteous, it tells you why

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Didn't saint Paul say that gentiles who do not know God can (and sometimes do) do what the Law commands and thus are examples that self righteous Jews ought to note and amend their behaviour so that God is not ill spoken of because of the Jews' bad behaviour?

Not so much. The conclusion is key:

But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.​

The example is the Gentile doing what the law commands by the Spirit.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Not so much. The conclusion is key:

But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.​

The example is the Gentile doing what the law commands by the Spirit.

Yes, and the gentiles did not know God. God acts even in people who do not know him. That is part of saint Paul's argument. The Jews were convinced that they had all the gifts and graces from God because they knew him but saint Paul points out that gentiles who did not know God still did what God commanded because the Spirit worked in them. But I imagine this line of thinking could become too theological for ordinary conversation so let's not push too hard on it.

 

[psalms 91]

It says without faith it is impossible to please God

 

[Lamb]

Philippians 3:9 "not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith: "

Scriptures say our righteousness is not our own, but that of God and we have it by faith in Him. The man in the OP is not righteous according to God's standards.

 

[hedrick]

Being righteous means that you are living a life approved by God. Many are referred to as righteous, in both the OT and NT. Certainly living morally is a big part of it, although at least for Jesus it's more about caring about others than avoiding a list of sins, as well as repenting and forgiving. But these are things that the OP (or the character described by the OP) could do.

The OT would not consider an idolater to be righteous. But I don't think Scripture really deals with modern almost-Christian agnostics. The fool who says in his heart that there is no God in Ps 14 and 53 is (if you look at the whole context) saying that because they aren't accountable to God, they can be evildoers with impunity. But that's not the situation of the OP.

I don't think almost-Christianity can survive in the long run without actual Christianity, but I think God may consider the OP righteous. That can only be speculation, because I don't think we have an explicit answer.

---------

I can easily envision Protestant reactions to this: no man is righteous, only Christ's righteousness imputed to us matters, and that can only happen if we believe in him. The problem with this is that "no man is righteous" cites an OT Ps. written by someone who was upset at what was going on around him. It was clearly hyperbole based on that situation, and is not the OT's overall teaching. In fact both OT and NT consider a number of people righteous. Paul says that we are considered righteous based on faith / faithfulness. Paul never says Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, but rather that God considers us righteous based on faith. Probably this is our faith, although some people argue that it's God's faithfulness to us as his covenant people, in the form of sending Christ to us. (This understands pisteos Jesou Christou as faithfulness of Christ.)

Paul is here saying the same thing that Jesus does: God accepts all of Jesus' followers. You can't and don't need to earn his acceptance, and he continues to love us even when we sin. (The other side of this, in both Paul and Jesus, is that we will be held accountable for how we respond to God's acceptance.) What is a follower, or on in Paul's term, who has faith? I think Jesus' answer is that it is the person who loves God and neighbor, even if they don't always show it perfectly. Protestant tradition understand Paul's use of faith as focusing on trust: we're Christ's followers if we trust him.

How does this apply to non-Christians who love neighbor, and at least in my experience would love God if they could accept that he exists? I think Jesus says more than once that if you live the way he teaches, that matters more than what you think about him.

 

[NewCreation435]

*This scenario is completely out of the OP's imagination. Any resemblance to your life means that I have been spying on you, and you're caught!

I am a morally good person. Many people have said so. They say I have a good "moral compass". I don't drink, smoke, use drugs. I give to the poor through local charities. My friends call me easy going, not one to get upset or yell, scream, be abusive. I have a wife and three kids whom I adore, and a great dog named "spot".
I have friends who are Christian, but I don't have any real faith that I adhere to. I'm spiritual, though. I think there's some "thing" out there that we'll never be able to put our finger on. And it helps keep me humble. My Christian friends don't make too much fuss about this, because they understand that I'm really not too concerned about what'll happen "after". I'm a "now" person, and now seems pretty good.

Am I righteous?

I think this really highlights how the world's view of what is good and God's is different. God's standard of righteousness is holiness. We can't attain that by our own efforts. Our good deeds look like filthy rags to God. We come to him by faith. While this person might be good compared to other people, he is not compared to God's standard of holiness. So, no you are not righteous.

 

[Josiah]

*This scenario is completely out of the OP's imagination. Any resemblance to your life means that I have been spying on you, and you're caught!

I am a morally good person. Many people have said so. They say I have a good "moral compass". I don't drink, smoke, use drugs. I give to the poor through local charities. My friends call me easy going, not one to get upset or yell, scream, be abusive. I have a wife and three kids whom I adore, and a great dog named "spot".
I have friends who are Christian, but I don't have any real faith that I adhere to. I'm spiritual, though. I think there's some "thing" out there that we'll never be able to put our finger on. And it helps keep me humble. My Christian friends don't make too much fuss about this, because they understand that I'm really not too concerned about what'll happen "after". I'm a "now" person, and now seems pretty good.

Am I righteous?

IMO, "righteous" is used in two very different ways in Scripture (and in theology)....


As compared to GOD and the Law: Here, no one is righteous, no, not even one. No one can boast. Since God doesn't grade on a curse, this is the sense that matters in JUSTIFICATION.

As compared to OTHERS: Here, the term is relative and compared to other people. Noah was a righteous man (but not sinless!). In theology, this is often called "civil righteousness," the quality that can be observed by MAN and by OUTWARD appearances. We've probably all known people about whom no sin at all has been observed (my grandfather is an excellent example) and yet of course they are sinners since they are not morally perfect and equal to God. This sense matters in Sanctification.



My half cent....


- Josiah

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Yes, and the gentiles did not know God. God acts even in people who do not know him. That is part of saint Paul's argument. The Jews were convinced that they had all the gifts and graces from God because they knew him but saint Paul points out that gentiles who did not know God still did what God commanded because the Spirit worked in them. But I imagine this line of thinking could become too theological for ordinary conversation so let's not push too hard on it.

One cannot do the work of the Spirit who does not know God. Paul's example was in reference to the Gentiles who knew God. That's the context of his conclusion. Otherwise, the man in our example is righteous.

 

[MoreCoffee]

One cannot do the work of the Spirit who does not know God. Paul's example was in reference to the Gentiles who knew God. That's the context of his conclusion. Otherwise, the man in our example is righteous.

Life is a gift from God so every human being receives grace from God and the Spirit is the source of human life so I do not see why you think that a man or woman who does not know God cannot receive gifts from God and specifically be led by the Spirit of God to do good. Cyrus the Persian was lead by God to do good to Israel. Clearly God does, at times, lead people who do not know him.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Life is a gift from God so every human being receives grace from God and the Spirit is the source of human life so I do not see why you think that a man or woman who does not know God cannot receive gifts from God and specifically be led by the Spirit of God to do good. Cyrus the Persian was lead by God to do good to Israel. Clearly God does, at times, lead people who do not know him.

I made the distinction early - one can perform good deeds from having a good moral compass, but shall we say that it's from God? Paul makes it clear that righteousness leading to eternal life is of Christ:

"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 5:18-21).​

 

[Lamb]

but I don't have any real faith that I adhere to.

This part from the pretend man in the OP scenario should be the signal that he cannot be righteous. He can do things per God's will but that will not make him righteous. God makes plants grow but they are not righteous. God is active in our world, not distant in the clouds and He is at work in mankind, but without faith, there is no good in that man, nor is there any salvation. The righteous have salvation and that is by grace through faith in the Savior who died for the forgiveness of their sins.

 

[Imalive]

One cannot do the work of the Spirit who does not know God. Paul's example was in reference to the Gentiles who knew God. That's the context of his conclusion. Otherwise, the man in our example is righteous.

They didn't know God. It says they didn't have the law. If you know God you know His Word that says don't steal etc. Their conscience told em.

 

[hedrick]

IMO, "righteous" is used in two very different ways in Scripture (and in theology)....


As compared to GOD and the Law: Here, no one is righteous, no, not even one. No one can boast. Since God doesn't grade on a curse, this is the sense that matters in JUSTIFICATION.

I think this misunderstands righteousness. In the Bible it doesn't mean moral perfection. It means a life that's acceptable to God. That's why Paul can say that our faith is reckoned as righteousness. It's because those who trust in God are his people, and he accepts us all. It's his acceptance that makes us righteous, because that's what righteousness means.

There's a certain paranoia in Protestant theology about the idea that someone might think they're earning God's favor. No major theology teaches that. Not ancient Judaism. Not Catholicism, even in the 16th Cent, though I have to admit that it was so badly implemented that at ground level it often looked that way. The idea of a moral perfection that would earn us salvation is a straw man that we ought not to spend quite so much time fighting.

The problem with it is that Jesus, and Paul when he's not talking about circumcision, do speak about judging people based on the nature of their lives. By nature I mean how they treat others, and whether they bear any fruit, not whether they're perfect. Not that what we do earns us God's love, but it's what God wants us to do, and he will hold us accountable. They also show who a person is actually following. I think there are people who Jesus will recognize as his followers who don't recognize God's hand in their lives. Like the people in Mat 25 who didn't realize they were serving Jesus, and the son in Mat 27 who refused his father but went off and did what he said anyway.

 

[Josiah]

I think this misunderstands righteousness. In the Bible it doesn't mean moral perfection. It means a life that's acceptable to God.

Which is one who is perfect. "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." "You must be holy as I the Lord your God am holy." The Law calls us to perfection, to absolute holiness.

However, in Sanctification, as we live our IMPERFECT (but forgiven!) lives, there is a "civil righteousness" (as it's called in theology) which is comparative to other people.

That's why Paul can say that our faith is reckoned as righteousness. It's because those who trust in God are his people, and he accepts us all. It's his acceptance that makes us righteous, because that's what righteousness means.

IMO, the righteousness is ours because Christ's righteousness is credited to us; we are "covered" by righteouness. Christ's IS perfect, Christ "had no sin," Christ IS the moral equal of God (indeed, He IS God). If justification were by virtue of our flawed character, then 1) Christ would be unnecessary, 2) we would be our own Saviors by our own righteousness, 3) God's Law would be irrelevent since keeping it would be irrelevant.

, do speak about judging people based on the nature of their lives. By nature I mean how they treat others, and whether they bear any fruit, not whether they're perfect. Not that what we do earns us God's love, but it's what God wants us to do, and he will hold us accountable.

Then you are speaking of sanctification, not justification. And yes, in sanctification, how we are IN COMPARISON TO OTHER SINNERS does matter, and how we live (even if not perfectly) does matter. Not so that we might be justified (making Jesus a joke and making it by our own works) but because we are. My physical birth some 29 years ago was by grace, a gift, an unearned blessing, something GIVEN to me. But once born, I am called to grow as a mature, responsible, moral, serving loving person - and I AM held responsible for that. But does my relative (but still flawed) goodness makes me born and having physical life? No, my having been given life is why I can grow to be more like the One who gave me life.



That's my perspective...



- Josiah