Salvation

[MoreCoffee]

To cut through my poor attempt and its excessive verbiage and also through the consequent questions the answer is

God's gift of the grace that saves is uncreated because it is God's gift of himself.

Have a look at this post, it is for you. http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?5424-Salvation&p=137659#post137659

Indeed He IS Jesus Christ IS God.



I asked "IS the Grace by Which God Saves man created or not?"



You trying to become Orthodox??



Is Christ the Grace of God?

We have Him as God the Giver of Grace...



So because God became man his Grace is created by God?

So then God the Son of Man is created grace?

I am asking like this to show the difficulty of thinking of Christ as created grace and Uncreated Grace...



Then what IS Salvation in terms of the human person?



And perhaps you can see that while this is true, it dissembles from the focus of the question...



Are they? And if yes or no, how so?



From the penitent's perspective, how is this gift manifested in the discipleship afforded him by the Church? Not instruction in the history of Christ's Incarnation, but in events now in his fallen life?



I am trying to focus this effort specifically on the Divine Grace which IS our Salvation, and not on its manifestations nor on its associations... Not on the discipling that leads to it, nor the stages thereof, but the Salvation itself in a man - The Gift from God that IS Salvation... Not God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but the Gift to man...

Created or uncreated?

And specifically what is it, this Gift from God?



It cannot be merely the saturation of the person with God, for Moses had that, and we have more...



What is it that Christ's, rather than Father Moses' salvation, Gives to those who receive it?

I do not think one can say the Gift IS the Holy Trinity, nor Christ, nor the Holy Spirit, nor God the Father... I will be very surprised if you find the Catholic Catechism saying that...

We'll see...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have no idea what vicarious repentance is, but I know what sanctification is. It's in the bible. You just have to look and read.

Vicarious means "done for you by somebody else". Vicarious repentance means "Somebody else does the Repenting for you".

 

[MennoSota]

Vicarious means "done for you by somebody else". Vicarious repentance means "Somebody else does the Repenting for you".

Is that a made-up RC belief?

 

[Albion]

I cannot speak for the Latin Church...

I can tell you this, from the perspective of the Ancient Faith of the Eastern Orthodox Faith...

From this perspective, one is living IN the Kingdom of Heaven, and this is a palpable condition of soul...

It carries the experience of the purity therein and of the Grace supporting one's soul in Love and Joy...

For in this Ekklesia, we are already IN the Kingdom of Heaven, and WITHIN that Kingdom, we do not have nor do we need the "assurance of the future"... We are LIVING that future here and now... In an earnest, as Paul writes... And we know when we sin, and we confess, and we repent, and thus retain this condition of being in our souls... And more than that, if we sin badly, the loss of Grace is so soul-shattering that we are virtually forced to confession and repentance, or death... There is no plan B... WHATEVER happens, we are all-in, and will do whatever it takes to overcome whatever sin might ever have overcome us...

In your terms, eg ASSURANCE of Salvation, we LIVE that assurance - We KNOW it palpably and ontologically... And we know that no matter what, we can recover from ANY sin that might assail us... We only have to get up once for every fall... Should we fall a thousand times, we will get back up a thousand time and face our enemies and overcome...

Yes, but it is the same thing as the Latin POV except that it is put in more flowery language. See how often you say that we do...or we can do...or we will do. That is the ideal or the objective, but nothing is changed when it comes to knowing future happenings or whether God will find the individual worthy or not.

 

[Arsenios]

Nothing is changed when it comes to knowing future happenings
or whether God will find the individual worthy or not.

I feared I would not be understood...

When one is living Life Eternal, "future happenings" are irrelevant, because one is living timelessly...

It is from this "platform", so to speak, that Prophetic Gifts then CAN occur...

We have no concern for the future...

Our concern is for living here and now by God's Grace...

Of simply doing what is good and honorable and loving and worthwhile...

The future does not exist yet...

And insofar as it does, it is included in the timeless present in God...

Ever-vigilant against sin...

Ever zealous to walk in God's works for us...

Life in Christ...

Eternity is now - The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand...

Here and now, and we are walking the earth in the Kingdom of Heaven...

And it is palpable and good and holy to walk in this manner...

As discipled in the Ekklesia of God...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

God's gift of the grace that saves is uncreated because it is God's gift of himself.

That is a good start...

So why do you not then, as you are speaking of God Himself, capitalizing the first letters of Grace and Uncreated and Himself? IF these indeed ARE God, then should they not be capitalized?

Have a look at this post, it is for you. http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?5424-Salvation&p=137659#post137659

I will drop over and read the post...

Thank you...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

I feared I would not be understood...

When one is living Life Eternal, "future happenings" are irrelevant, because one is living timelessly...

It is from this "platform", so to speak, that Prophetic Gifts then CAN occur...

We have no concern for the future...

Members of Eastern Orthodox church do not have any concern about the afterlife. They believe that church membership guarantees them salvation.

I really do not believe that's so, Arsenios.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That is a good start...

So why do you not then, as you are speaking of God Himself, capitalizing the first letters of Grace and Uncreated and Himself?

Because the habit of capitalising common nouns and pronouns when they refer to God is an affectation invented some time in the 19th or 20th century. Capitalising the G of God is done because God is used as a proper noun, a name, in many English language texts.

IF these indeed ARE God, then should they not be capitalized?



I will drop over and read the post...

Thank you...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Members of Eastern Orthodox church do not have any concern about the afterlife. They believe that church membership guarantees them salvation.

I really do not believe that's so, Arsenios.

The mileage varies from person to person, according to their repentance and the Purposing of God...

But the ethos of Parish Life is concern for here and now, and knowing that if we "work out our Salvation in fear and trembling" before Almighty God, that we need have no worries about eternity... Our concern, our worry, is our fear that we fall to sin, and in this regard, we exercise careful and confessional and penitent vigilance... We know that we are beloved of God, and for those of us still struggling in major-issues repentance, we take solace in our wounds from sin that we can confess and try again to overcome...

An Orthodox friend of mine recently was speaking with an ex-Catholic agnostic who asked him: "Don't you ever have doubts at all????" And he replied to him: "Look, of course I have doubts, on many things from time to time... But I will tell you this, and listen carefully: Even IF it were proven to me that this whole Faith is false, and even if I BELIEVED it to be false, I would STILL choose to LIVE the way the Church disciples us to live, BECAUSE to live any OTHER way would simply and manifestly be LESS, and more than less, simply NOT worthwhile..." The agnostic couple were dumbstruck at this idea... God-Smacked would be better said... I confess that when he told me that, the hairs on my head stood up, so true did it ring... I lived this way as an atheist, but without the discipling of the Church... God directed me to my Home in the Church AFTER I was knowing Him for 14 years...

I don't know what else to tell you...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Because the habit of capitalising common nouns and pronouns when they refer to God is an affectation invented some time in the 19th or 20th century. Capitalising the G of God is done because God is used as a proper noun, a name, in many English language texts.

Well, so much for MY theory!

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

The mileage varies from person to person, according to their repentance and the Purposing of God...

But the ethos of Parish Life is concern for here and now, and knowing that if we "work out our Salvation in fear and trembling" before Almighty God, that we need have no worries about eternity... Our concern, our worry, is our fear that we fall to sin, and in this regard, we exercise careful and confessional and penitent vigilance... We know that we are beloved of God, and for those of us still struggling in major-issues repentance, we take solace in our wounds from sin that we can confess and try again to overcome...

An Orthodox friend of mine recently was speaking with an ex-Catholic agnostic who asked him: "Don't you ever have doubts at all????" And he replied to him: "Look, of course I have doubts, on many things from time to time... But I will tell you this, and listen carefully: Even IF it were proven to me that this whole Faith is false, and even if I BELIEVED it to be false, I would STILL choose to LIVE the way the Church disciples us to live, BECAUSE to live any OTHER way would simply and manifestly be LESS, and more than less, simply NOT worthwhile..." The agnostic couple were dumbstruck at this idea... God-Smacked would be better said... I confess that when he told me that, the hairs on my head stood up, so true did it ring... I lived this way as an atheist, but without the discipling of the Church... God directed me to my Home in the Church AFTER I was knowing Him for 14 years...

I don't know what else to tell you...

Arsenios

Is there any difference between the orthodox disciple, the muslim disciple, the buddhist disciple or the atheist disciple that buffets their body and mind into rigid compliance of a code? It seems to me that there is no difference and there is no difference in the end point.
As long as one refuses to rest in God's gracious adoption, apart from any merit we wish to create, it does not matter what title is added to the pathway of works. The end is an utter failure to hit the mark resulting in eternal death. It is so sad to watch.

 

[Arsenios]

First from CatholicCulture

Catholic Dictionary
Term
UNCREATED GRACE

Definition
God himself, insofar as in his love has predetermined gifts of grace.
there are three forms of uncreated grace:
the hypostatic union, the divine indwelling, and the beatific vision.

In the first of these, God has communicated himself
in the Incarnation of Christ's humanity (the grace of union)
so intimately that Jesus of Nazareth is a divine person.

In the second and third communications,
the souls of the justified on earth and of the glorified in heaven
are elevated to a share in God's own life.

all three are created graces, considered as acts,
since they all had a beginning in time.

But the gift that is conferred on a creature in these acts is uncreated.​

MC, does this make any sense at all to you?

It states:

there are three forms of uncreated grace:
THEN
all three are created graces
But the gift conferred on a creature is uncreated...

The reason given is that it is all a matter of how we are considering them???

It is a matter of OUR psycho-epistemology??

And THEN at the end:

grace escapes our experience
and cannot be known except by faith.

I cannot find any coherence in any of this at all...

Arsenios​

 

[MoreCoffee]

MC, does this make any sense at all to you?

It states:

there are three forms of uncreated grace:
THEN
all three are created graces
But the gift conferred on a creature is uncreated...

The reason given is that it is all a matter of how we are considering them???

It is a matter of OUR psycho-epistemology??

And THEN at the end:

grace escapes our experience
and cannot be known except by faith.

I cannot find any coherence in any of this at all...

Arsenios

The quote as you've given it makes no sense. The quote that was in my post makes sense. You deleted some when you quoted. What is missing is underlined in the following

First from CatholicCulture

Catholic Dictionary
Term
UNCREATED GRACE

Definition

God himself, insofar as in his love has predetermined gifts of grace. there are three forms of uncreated grace: the hypostatic union, the divine indwelling, and the beatific vision. In the first of these, God has communicated himself in the Incarnation of Christ's humanity (the grace of union) so intimately that Jesus of Nazareth is a divine person. In the second and third communications, the souls of the justified on earth and of the glorified in heaven are elevated to a share in God's own life. all three are created graces, considered as acts, since they all had a beginning in time. But the gift that is conferred on a creature in these acts is uncreated.​

​

The definition differentiates between the gift (of God himself which is uncreated) and the act accomplished in time of receiving the gift. As actions in time God's gift of himself is occurring in creation in time and has a beginning. God himself has no beginning and is not bound by time so the gift (which is God himself) is not bound by time and is not created while the act of receiving him is in time and hence creaturely.

 

[MennoSota]

The convoluted nature of the RC catechism is either just bad writing or purposeful muddying. I suspect the latter.

 

[RichWh1]

The convoluted nature of the RC catechism is either just bad writing or purposeful muddying. I suspect the latter.

Purposeful muddying. They are educated theologians who ought to know better than teach philosophy of man rather than doctrines of God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The convoluted nature of the RC catechism is either just bad writing or purposeful muddying. I suspect the latter.

Purposeful muddying. They are educated theologians who ought to know better than teach philosophy of man rather than doctrines of God.

Looking at these posts is very like looking at a critique of Christian theology made by those who do not understand it. If there's difficulty understanding the difference between what is given and the act of giving it how will mysteries like the incarnation and the Blessed Trinity fair?

Whoever wishes to be saved must, above all, keep the Catholic faith.
For unless a person keeps this faith whole and entire, he will undoubtedly be lost forever.
This is what the Catholic faith teaches: we worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity.
Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance.
For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have one divinity, equal glory, and coeternal majesty.
What the Father is, the Son is, and the Holy Spirit is.
The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Father is boundless, the Son is boundless, and the Holy Spirit is boundless.
The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal.
Nevertheless, there are not three eternal beings, but one eternal being.
So there are not three uncreated beings, nor three boundless beings, but one uncreated being and one boundless being.
Likewise, the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, the Holy Spirit is omnipotent.
Yet there are not three omnipotent beings, but one omnipotent being.

Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
However, there are not three gods, but one God.
The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord.
However, there as not three lords, but one Lord.
For as we are obliged by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person singly to be God and Lord, so too are we forbidden by the Catholic religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords.
The Father was not made, nor created, nor generated by anyone.
The Son is not made, nor created, but begotten by the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit is not made, nor created, nor generated, but proceeds from the Father and the Son.

There is, then, one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
In this Trinity, there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less. The entire three Persons are coeternal and coequal with one another.
So that in all things, as is has been said above, the Unity is to be worshipped in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity.
He, therefore, who wishes to be saved, must believe thus about the Trinity.

It is also necessary for eternal salvation that he believes steadfastly in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thus the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is both God and man.

As God, He was begotten of the substance of the Father before time; as man, He was born in time of the substance of His Mother.
He is perfect God; and He is perfect man, with a rational soul and human flesh.
He is equal to the Father in His divinity, but inferior to the Father in His humanity.
Although He is God and man, He is not two, but one Christ.
And He is one, not because His divinity was changed into flesh, but because His humanity was assumed unto God.
He is one, not by a mingling of substances, but by unity of person.
As a rational soul and flesh are one man: so God and man are one Christ.
He died for our salvation, descended into hell, and rose from the dead on the third day.
He ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty. From there He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
At His coming, all men are to arise with their own bodies; and they are to give an account of their own deeds.
Those who have done good deeds will go into eternal life; those who have done evil will go into the everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic faith. Everyone must believe it, firmly and steadfastly; otherwise He cannot be saved.

Amen.​

 

[MennoSota]

Looking at these posts is very like looking at a critique of Christian theology made by those who do not understand it. If there's difficulty understanding the difference between what is given and the act of giving it how will mysteries like the incarnation and the Blessed Trinity fair?

Whoever wishes to be saved must, above all, keep the Catholic faith.
For unless a person keeps this faith whole and entire, he will undoubtedly be lost forever.
This is what the Catholic faith teaches: we worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity.
Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance.
For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have one divinity, equal glory, and coeternal majesty.
What the Father is, the Son is, and the Holy Spirit is.
The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Father is boundless, the Son is boundless, and the Holy Spirit is boundless.
The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal.
Nevertheless, there are not three eternal beings, but one eternal being.
So there are not three uncreated beings, nor three boundless beings, but one uncreated being and one boundless being.
Likewise, the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, the Holy Spirit is omnipotent.
Yet there are not three omnipotent beings, but one omnipotent being.

Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
However, there are not three gods, but one God.
The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord.
However, there as not three lords, but one Lord.
For as we are obliged by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person singly to be God and Lord, so too are we forbidden by the Catholic religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords.
The Father was not made, nor created, nor generated by anyone.
The Son is not made, nor created, but begotten by the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit is not made, nor created, nor generated, but proceeds from the Father and the Son.

There is, then, one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
In this Trinity, there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less. The entire three Persons are coeternal and coequal with one another.
So that in all things, as is has been said above, the Unity is to be worshipped in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity.
He, therefore, who wishes to be saved, must believe thus about the Trinity.

It is also necessary for eternal salvation that he believes steadfastly in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thus the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is both God and man.

As God, He was begotten of the substance of the Father before time; as man, He was born in time of the substance of His Mother.
He is perfect God; and He is perfect man, with a rational soul and human flesh.
He is equal to the Father in His divinity, but inferior to the Father in His humanity.
Although He is God and man, He is not two, but one Christ.
And He is one, not because His divinity was changed into flesh, but because His humanity was assumed unto God.
He is one, not by a mingling of substances, but by unity of person.
As a rational soul and flesh are one man: so God and man are one Christ.
He died for our salvation, descended into hell, and rose from the dead on the third day.
He ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty. From there He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
At His coming, all men are to arise with their own bodies; and they are to give an account of their own deeds.
Those who have done good deeds will go into eternal life; those who have done evil will go into the everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic faith. Everyone must believe it, firmly and steadfastly; otherwise He cannot be saved.

Amen.​

I find the RC catechism and the mishnah to be simular documents that end up being held in higher regard by the followers than the Bible itself. The traditions of men become greater than the words of God.

 

[Arsenios]

The quote as you've given it makes no sense. The quote that was in my post makes sense. You deleted some when you quoted. What is missing is underlined in the following

First from CatholicCulture

Catholic Dictionary
Term
UNCREATED GRACE

Definition

God himself, insofar as in his love has predetermined gifts of grace. there are three forms of uncreated grace: the hypostatic union, the divine indwelling, and the beatific vision. In the first of these, God has communicated himself in the Incarnation of Christ's humanity (the grace of union) so intimately that Jesus of Nazareth is a divine person. In the second and third communications, the souls of the justified on earth and of the glorified in heaven are elevated to a share in God's own life. all three are created graces, considered as acts, since they all had a beginning in time. But the gift that is conferred on a creature in these acts is uncreated.​

​

Well, the red underlined portion is what I referred to as psycho-epistemological - A kind of "looked at this way it is this, and looked at that way it is that." The this and that are created and Uncreated [forgive the affectation, but one is God and one is creation] and the quote conflates the two according to one's perspective... eg CONSIDERED AS acts, and then CONSIDERED AS gifts...

The definition differentiates between the gift (of God himself which is uncreated)
and the act accomplished in time of receiving the gift.

Why on earth would this be a part of the definition?
And is it even true?
The timeless God acts in His creation in time...
So now we have to hurry on over and make sure that we understand that this ACTION by God is CREATED???
Or that because it is received by creation it BECOMES created?

Because in Orthodox Theological understanding, when man encounters God, it is man and not God that changes...
So that the Gift of Timeless Immortality, for instance, does not become mortal and time-bound because we mortals receive it...

And by this Gift God's creation - eg man - by receiving it becomes by Grace what the Gift IS of God...
And this means that man partakes of the Divine Nature by becoming Divinized by God, wherein the man who receives the Gift of God that IS God, becomes "Godded" by God... The term we use in the Ancient Faith is Theosis, and is a manifest occurrence throughout the Bible - It is the meaning Paul had when he wrote: "Whom He hath Justified, these also He hath GLORIFIED."

As actions in time God's gift of himself is occurring in creation in time and has a beginning.

We would hold that God in His Divine Nature acting in time does not have a beginning...

God himself has no beginning and is not bound by time so the gift (which is God himself) is not bound by time and is not created while the act of receiving him is in time and hence creaturely.

The paper did not use the term "creaturely" of the act of receiving God, but stated very clearly that the Gift itself is created when it is received by a creature, because it has a beginning in time...

The premise just seems terribly flawed...

Back to you -

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Purposeful muddying. They are educated theologians who ought to know better than teach philosophy of man rather than doctrines of God.

Here is someone who might agree with you, but at least with Menno:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2iPocLLfls

I hope this helps!

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Here is someone who might agree with you, but at least with Menno:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2iPocLLfls

I hope this helps!

Arsenios

Shall we give our bounties to rescue you? I ask in jest. Best to leave that video to YouTube. It is too erroneous to justify more time than was wasted watching it.