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MoreCoffee

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So are we saved by Grace or by God?
Grace is the gift God is the giver so we are saved by God giving grace to people.

I was going to say that "they are the same". But a better defined answer may help others who read without the benefit of the Church's disciple-ing.

The Orthodox answer is YES...

Salvation is God's Gift of Himself to fallen man...

eg The Grace of God IS God, but not God in Essence...

But is instead God in His ENERGIAS...

Arsenios

Yes, God gave himself in Jesus Christ so Jesus Christ is the grace of God by which God saves his people from their sins and calls them to repentance and faith which leads to a life of goodness and good works. Of course very few are perfected in this life, men like Job and Enoch come to mind and Blessed Mary the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ also comes to mind. But there are no doubt others. So we are called to be like Jesus and also like those who walk with him in exemplary faith and goodness.
 
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MennoSota

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It is not Faith Who Saves, nor Works Who Save, but God Who Saves us

IF we turn from evil unto God [repentance] inasmuch as we have strength to do so...

Which is one reason why we beseech God for strength and faith...

Arsenios

The middle section is something you add onto the gospel. It is works, works, works. It is this huge IF that makes your message merit based and thus grace is destroyed by your claim.

Arsenios, you preach a false gospel and there is no two ways around that fact. You are depending on your self to earn your way into God's favor. I am here to tell you that you have badly missed the mark and are thus dead in your trespasses and sins. I wish it were not so, but your own message condemns you. It is heartbreaking to see you missing the truth.
 

MennoSota

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Grace is the gift God is the giver so we are saved by God giving grace to people.

I was going to say that "they are the same". But a better defined answer may help others who read without the benefit of the Church's disciple-ing.



Yes, God gave himself in Jesus Christ so Jesus Christ is the grace of God by which God saves his people from their sins and calls them to repentance and faith which leads to a life of goodness and good works. Of course very few are perfected in this life, men like Job and Enoch come to mind and Blessed Mary the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ also comes to mind. But there are no doubt others. So we are called to be like Jesus and also like those who walk with him in exemplary faith and goodness.

MC, If you hold to this position, we may find agreement. I don't think Christians can reach sinless perfection and I am sure that Enoch, Job and Mary had their faults, but grace is greater than their sins (and yours and mine).
 

Arsenios

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Grace is the gift God is the giver so we are saved by God giving grace to people.

Does God create the grace He gives us?
And what then IS the Salvation given to us by Grace...
"For by Grace are ye saved..."


Yes, God gave himself in Jesus Christ so Jesus Christ is the grace of God by which God saves his people from their sins and calls them to repentance and faith which leads to a life of goodness and good works. Of course very few are perfected in this life, men like Job and Enoch come to mind and Blessed Mary the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ also comes to mind. But there are no doubt others. So we are called to be like Jesus and also like those who walk with him in exemplary faith and goodness.

Is there a Latin source for your claim that Jesus Christ IS the Grace God gives us for Salvation?

This is a very precise question I am asking - And perhaps on the forum might not be the place to discuss it...

For the Orthodox, the New Creation we become when we are baptized INTO Christ is the Union of God and Man IN Christ... And that Union is a human nature that is not only forgiven so as to regain the Garden in Adam, but is as well the Divine Nature of God Himself in which we now partake as having by Grace that which Christ Incarnate had by His very Nature... And this, when perfected, is the Christing of man IN Christ...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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So I had an interesting encounter with a woman who is an Evangellical Protestant Christian, who when I told her that I was an Eastern Orthodox Christian asked this:

"How do Catholics get saved?"

I told her we live repentant lives and get baptized into Christ...

And enter into the Services of the Church partaking therein of the Holy Mysteries of the Faith...

What say you, MC?

Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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Salvation is God's gift of himself

Does God create the grace He gives us?
And what then IS the Salvation given to us by Grace...
"For by Grace are ye saved..."

God gives himself in Jesus Christ, Your question asks "does God create the grace that he gives to us? The answer is No, and Yes. No, because Jesus Christ is fully God and hence fully uncreated. Yes, because the man Jesus Christ is fully man and hence a creature made in time of matter - a reasonable soul and body as the Calcedonian creed says. God also gives the Holy Spirit in salvation and the Holy Spirit is fully God and hence uncreated. And the Father dwells in/with his people in salvation and the Father is fully God and hence uncreated. You know, my brother, that salvation is of God the Holy Trinity.

There are other graces given in salvation, forgiveness of sins, power to endure temptation, power to overcome sins, these are created graces. But created graces are not the grace that saves, that grace is the gift of Jesus Christ by the Father through the Holy Spirit in the incarnation and crucifixion and resurrection. That is the gift. The rest is God's graces enabling human beings to respond. To repent, to believe, to walk in the light, to do good, to resist evil, to become what we must be. But in the end, to share the nature of God as much as a creature can, that is to be in union with Christ and behold the beatific vision, this is the uncreated gift of Christ himself given by the most Blessed and most Holy Trinity.

Is there a Latin source for your claim that Jesus Christ IS the Grace God gives us for Salvation?

Yes, the Catechism of the Catholic Church contains it, and the documents of the second Vatican Council contain it. I will look up the passages later; at the moment I am a little distracted with teaching an 80+ year old friend how to use a smart phone, and she refuses to use her glasses unless I cajole her into it, but she cannot really see what is written on the screen without them. Pray for her my friend, it is a small thing I know, but it is worthy of prayer I assure you. I think that the Council of Trent also teaches that God gives himself as the chief good and greatest of all graces, I know that saint Augustine taught it too, and saint Thomas Aquinas. But I shall need to hunt around for the passages.

This is a very precise question I am asking - And perhaps on the forum might not be the place to discuss it...

For the Orthodox, the New Creation we become when we are baptized INTO Christ is the Union of God and Man IN Christ... And that Union is a human nature that is not only forgiven so as to regain the Garden in Adam, but is as well the Divine Nature of God Himself in which we now partake as having by Grace that which Christ Incarnate had by His very Nature... And this, when perfected, is the Christing of man IN Christ...

Arsenios

Amen, this is Catholic teaching and as far as I know always has been. From the first days of the Church and even before as the apostles came to realise that Jesus was not merely a great teacher and miracle working Messiah but also God himself incarnate.
 

MoreCoffee

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So I had an interesting encounter with a woman who is an Evangellical Protestant Christian, who when I told her that I was an Eastern Orthodox Christian asked this:

"How do Catholics get saved?"

I told her we live repentant lives and get baptized into Christ...

And enter into the Services of the Church partaking therein of the Holy Mysteries of the Faith...

What say you, MC?

Arsenios

I say amen and amen. The wording is yours the teaching is wholly Catholic.
 

MoreCoffee

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I say amen and amen. The wording is yours the teaching is wholly Catholic.

Think of this as a post script to my previous post.

"How do Catholics get saved?"

The faithful live repentant lives energised by faith in Jesus Christ the Lord and they are baptised into Christ into union with Christ becoming his body and sharing his Life

And enter into the Life of the Church partaking therein of the Holy Sacraments of the Faith as well as the teaching of Christ which is the teaching of the Church

One need not be in full communion with the Catholic Church to experience these things but the degree to which separation from the Catholic Church exists is the same as the degree to which separation from the full life of the body of Christ exists.
 

Albion

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It is inherent in that approach that the person never knows, throughout the whole of his life, if he is going to be--or likely to be--saved or not.

There is something wrong with that theology, considering that The Lord himself spoke to his followers in different terms.
 

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It is not Faith Who Saves, nor Works Who Save, but God Who Saves us IF we turn from evil unto God [repentance] inasmuch as we have strength to do so... Which is one reason why we beseech God for strength and faith...

Arsenios

Arsenios says IF we instead of God grants us repentance otherwise I woulda agreed with what you said bout faith isn't saving or works because of the who that does the saving.
 

MoreCoffee

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Arsenios says IF we instead of God grants us repentance otherwise I woulda agreed with what you said bout faith isn't saving or works because of the who that does the saving.

The IF is about what God enables human beings to do. God does not turn from evil for us and God does not turn to God for us. We do that. We do it by the grace of God. It is not something that we did because one day in our sins we thought "hey! let's repent and turn away from evil and towards God because, well just because!" that doesn't happen. I doubt that any Christian thinks that it does. At least I hope no Christian thinks like that. But it is people who repent. It is people who turn from wicked things and toward God. People do it. I cannot be done for them by proxy or something. There is no vicarious repentance that I've ever seen written about in the holy scriptures. There is vicarious suffering and death and vicarious resurrection too but no vicarious repentance.
 

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Think of this as a post script to my previous post.

"How do Catholics get saved?"

The faithful live repentant lives energised by faith in Jesus Christ the Lord and they are baptised into Christ into union with Christ becoming his body and sharing his Life

And enter into the Life of the Church partaking therein of the Holy Sacraments of the Faith as well as the teaching of Christ which is the teaching of the Church

One need not be in full communion with the Catholic Church to experience these things but the degree to which separation from the Catholic Church exists is the same as the degree to which separation from the full life of the body of Christ exists.
Thanks for this addendum, MC. You are moving closer to reformation every day...[emoji41]
 

MennoSota

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The IF is about what God enables human beings to do. God does not turn from evil for us and God does not turn to God for us. We do that. We do it by the grace of God. It is not something that we did because one day in our sins we thought "hey! let's repent and turn away from evil and towards God because, well just because!" that doesn't happen. I doubt that any Christian thinks that it does. At least I hope no Christian thinks like that. But it is people who repent. It is people who turn from wicked things and toward God. People do it. I cannot be done for them by proxy or something. There is no vicarious repentance that I've ever seen written about in the holy scriptures. There is vicarious suffering and death and vicarious resurrection too but no vicarious repentance.
You speak of the process of sanctification.
 

MoreCoffee

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You speak of the process of sanctification.

That is incorrect. I did not speak of process. Vicarious repentance is not in the holy scriptures. Is it in your theology?
 

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[MENTION=486]Arsenios[/MENTION]

Brother, here are some online sources dealing with Catholic teaching on Uncreated Grace

First from CatholicCulture
Catholic Dictionary
Term
UNCREATED GRACE

Definition
God himself, insofar as in his love has predetermined gifts of grace. there are three forms of uncreated grace: the hypostatic union, the divine indwelling, and the beatific vision. In the first of these, God has communicated himself in the Incarnation of Christ's humanity (the grace of union) so intimately that Jesus of Nazareth is a divine person. In the second and third communications, the souls of the justified on earth and of the glorified in heaven are elevated to a share in God's own life. all three are created graces, considered as acts, since they all had a beginning in time. But the gift that is conferred on a creature in these acts is uncreated.
(source)​

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
II. Grace

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.[SUP]46[/SUP]

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.[SUP]47[/SUP]

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:[SUP]48[/SUP]

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.[SUP]49[/SUP]​

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"[SUP]50[/SUP]

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.[SUP]51[/SUP]​

2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. the soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. the promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.[SUP]52[/SUP]​

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favour," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."[SUP]53[/SUP] Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.[SUP]54[/SUP]

2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:

Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.[SUP]55[/SUP]​

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.[SUP]56[/SUP] However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"[SUP]57[/SUP] - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: 'If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"[SUP]58
[/SUP]​
46 Cf. ⇒ Jn 1:12-18; ⇒ 17:3; ⇒ Rom 8:14-17; ⇒ 2 Pet 1:3-4.
47 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 2:7-9.
48 Cf. ⇒ Jn 4:14; ⇒ 7:38-39.
49 ⇒ 2 Cor 5:17-18.
50 St. Augustine, De gratia et libero arbitrio, 17: PL 44, 901.
51 St. Augustine, De natura et gratia, 31: PL 44, 264.
52 St. Augustine, Conf. 13, 36, 51: PL 32, 868; cf. ⇒ Gen 1:31.
53 Cf. LG 12.
54 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 12.
55 ⇒ Rom 12:6-8.
56 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1533-1534.
57 ⇒ Mt 7:20.
58 Acts of the trial of St. Joan of Arc.​

There are some references to saint Augustine (numbers 50-52) if I can find them and have the time to do so I will, God willing, post them in this thread for you.

God bless.
 

MennoSota

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That is incorrect. I did not speak of process. Vicarious repentance is not in the holy scriptures. Is it in your theology?
I have no idea what vicarious repentance is, but I know what sanctification is. It's in the bible. You just have to look and read.
 

Arsenios

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Arsenios said:
What then IS this Salvation given to us by God's Grace...

God gives himself in Jesus Christ...

Indeed He IS Jesus Christ IS God.

Your question asks "does God create the grace that he gives to us?

I asked "IS the Grace by Which God Saves man created or not?"

The answer is No, and Yes.

You trying to become Orthodox??

No, because Jesus Christ is fully God and hence fully uncreated.

Is Christ the Grace of God?

We have Him as God the Giver of Grace...

Yes, because the man Jesus Christ is fully man and hence a creature made in time of matter - a reasonable soul and body as the Calcedonian creed says.

So because God became man his Grace is created by God?

So then God the Son of Man is created grace?

I am asking like this to show the difficulty of thinking of Christ as created grace and Uncreated Grace...

God also gives the Holy Spirit in salvation and the Holy Spirit is fully God and hence uncreated.

Then what IS Salvation in terms of the human person?

And the Father dwells in/with his people in salvation and the Father is fully God and hence uncreated. You know, my brother, that salvation is of God the Holy Trinity.

And perhaps you can see that while this is true, it dissembles from the focus of the question...

There are other graces given in salvation, forgiveness of sins, power to endure temptation, power to overcome sins, these are created graces.

Are they? And if yes or no, how so?

But created graces are not the grace that saves, that grace is the gift of Jesus Christ by the Father through the Holy Spirit in the incarnation and crucifixion and resurrection. That is the gift.

From the penitent's perspective, how is this gift manifested in the discipleship afforded him by the Church? Not instruction in the history of Christ's Incarnation, but in events now in his fallen life?

The rest is God's graces enabling human beings to respond. To repent, to believe, to walk in the light, to do good, to resist evil, to become what we must be. But in the end, to share the nature of God as much as a creature can, that is to be in union with Christ and behold the beatific vision, this is the uncreated gift of Christ himself given by the most Blessed and most Holy Trinity.

I am trying to focus this effort specifically on the Divine Grace which IS our Salvation, and not on its manifestations nor on its associations... Not on the discipling that leads to it, nor the stages thereof, but the Salvation itself in a man - The Gift from God that IS Salvation... Not God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but the Gift to man...

Created or uncreated?

And specifically what is it, this Gift from God?

Yes, the Catechism of the Catholic Church contains it, and the documents of the second Vatican Council contain it. I will look up the passages later; at the moment I am a little distracted with teaching an 80+ year old friend how to use a smart phone, and she refuses to use her glasses unless I cajole her into it, but she cannot really see what is written on the screen without them. Pray for her my friend, it is a small thing I know, but it is worthy of prayer I assure you. I think that the Council of Trent also teaches that God gives himself as the chief good and greatest of all graces, I know that saint Augustine taught it too, and saint Thomas Aquinas. But I shall need to hunt around for the passages.

It cannot be merely the saturation of the person with God, for Moses had that, and we have more...

Amen, this is Catholic teaching and as far as I know always has been. From the first days of the Church and even before as the apostles came to realise that Jesus was not merely a great teacher and miracle working Messiah but also God himself incarnate.

What is it that Christ's, rather than Father Moses' salvation, Gives to those who receive it?

I do not think one can say the Gift IS the Holy Trinity, nor Christ, nor the Holy Spirit, nor God the Father... I will be very surprised if you find the Catholic Catechism saying that...

We'll see...

Arsenios
 

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It is inherent in that approach that the person never knows, throughout the whole of his life, if he is going to be--or likely to be--saved or not.

There is something wrong with that theology, considering that The Lord himself spoke to his followers in different terms.

I cannot speak for the Latin Church...

I can tell you this, from the perspective of the Ancient Faith of the Eastern Orthodox Faith...

From this perspective, one is living IN the Kingdom of Heaven, and this is a palpable condition of soul...

It carries the experience of the purity therein and of the Grace supporting one's soul in Love and Joy...

For in this Ekklesia, we are already IN the Kingdom of Heaven, and WITHIN that Kingdom, we do not have nor do we need the "assurance of the future"... We are LIVING that future here and now... In an earnest, as Paul writes... And we know when we sin, and we confess, and we repent, and thus retain this condition of being in our souls... And more than that, if we sin badly, the loss of Grace is so soul-shattering that we are virtually forced to confession and repentance, or death... There is no plan B... WHATEVER happens, we are all-in, and will do whatever it takes to overcome whatever sin might ever have overcome us...

In your terms, eg ASSURANCE of Salvation, we LIVE that assurance - We KNOW it palpably and ontologically... And we know that no matter what, we can recover from ANY sin that might assail us... We only have to get up once for every fall... Should we fall a thousand times, we will get back up a thousand time and face our enemies and overcome...

You see, we speak from different perspectives - Ours is from the ever-perceived Grace of Life in the Kingdom of Heaven - Which Grace is our ongoing ontological Assurance because we are living Life Eternal, and walk in that Grace with confidence from Grace to Grace in Grace...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Arsenios says IF we instead of God grants us repentance otherwise I woulda agreed with what you said bout faith isn't saving or works because of the who that does the saving.

The Scripture sure reads: "Of God the Gift..." of Salvation by the Agency of God's Grace...

Arsenios
 
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