Jesus Christ, died for all

[MoreCoffee]

It seems you are incapable of answering my question. I will ask it until you answer since you are the one who made the assertion.
How is "the merit of Christ's passion communicated?" What, specifically, is the "merit" of Christ's passion?

The merit of Christ's passion is communicated by baptism in most cases and by holy communion and by faith and by repentance and by every means of grace. I suspect that will not help you but you are keen to have something to read. Merit is merit, any dictionary can give you an effective definition.

 

[Andrew]

God calls all.

so only Gods people hear?

 

[MoreCoffee]

so only Gods people hear?

Is there not a passage in the holy scriptures that says Many are called but few are chosen?

 

[YourTruthGod]

so only Gods people hear?

You don't become God's people until you believe and repent.
Some reject God.

 

[Andrew]

Isn't there not a passage in the holy scriptures that says Many are called but few are chosen?

Where does it say "all are called"?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Where does it say "all are called"?

Seriously? You don't know?

 

[YourTruthGod]

You said one must believe then repent. I agree.
Only those whom God makes alive with Christ can believe. This is all laid out in Ephesians 1 and 2. You don't seem to understand what God is clearly saying. I cannot remove the scales from your eyes.

No, we do NOT say the same thing.

God does NOT make anyone alive that don't first believe in Him and repent.

 

[Andrew]

You don't become God's people until you believe and repent.
Some reject God.

Yes but I never heard an atheist say "well God called but I ignored it", when you 'hear' the call it's different from being 'called on' and not hearing.
Christ says that his sheep hear his call and come to him

 

[Andrew]

Seriously? You don't know?

Many or all? Or are they the same?

 

[MennoSota]

The merit of Christ's passion is communicated by baptism in most cases and by holy communion and by faith and by repentance and by every means of grace. I suspect that will not help you but you are keen to have something to read. Merit is merit, any dictionary can give you an effective definition.

You are correct in that you have muddied up the waters even more. I suppose I should take it that you are clueless as to what "the merit of Christ's passion" is. Certainly there is no scripture referring to it so it has to be a made up concept within your church.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Many or all? Or are they the same?

Well, let me put it this way. You have heard that many are called but few are chosen but you haven't listened to the part that says [God] commands all people everywhere to repent if you can't remember what that is try Acts chapter seventeen and there is also the passage that says This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Many or all? Or are they the same?

Mennosota and you should think about how many were called and then one man was thrown out. Remember that parable?

 

[YourTruthGod]

WHEN JESUS IS LIFTED UP, HE DRAWS ALL MEN TO HIM, see John 12:32.

God wants ALL to be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?’

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

 

[RichWh1]

Many or all? Or are they the same?

If I'm not mistaken, it's a figure of speech, where the word many has the implication of all.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Josiah]

You can't find ANY Scripture (or any believer prior to the 16th Century) that says Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for a few, a minority. You have proven - over and over again - that you have NOTHING, absolutely nothing whatsoever, to substantiate this invention of a few radical later-day Calvinissts.

And of course, others have present MANY Scriptures that specifically, verbatim, boldly state that Jesus died for all. So, you simply must "spin" them upside down and inside out, until the "mean" the exact opposite of what these MANY Scriptures verbatim state.

You should think about that.

But you won't.

Josiah, if you go to a store and purchase items do you take them home with you or do you leave them in the store?
You claim that Jesus purchased every human in his atoning sacrifice, yet you state that Jesus leaves many of those he purchased to eternal damnation.

The absurdity you have is the result of your elimination of faith from justification, your abandonment of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE.

Your absurdity is exactly why universalism is the result of radical Calvinism.

Yes, Jesus died for all, just as the Bible so often literally states. No, not all have faith, just as the Bible says. Since justification requires BOTH the work of Christ AND faith, those with faith are justified. It's not hard.... as long as you don't delete faith, as long as you don't repudiate Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.

 

[Josiah]

MennoSota,


1. Read John 3:16.


2. You like to ask questions, perhaps thinking that questions substantiate ANYTHING and/or that questions are apologetics. Radical Calvinisim and Arminianism both are based on self asking self questions and then self insisting that the answer self gives to the question self asks must be right (because self is SO smart) and that God must agree with self in order to be as smart as self. Enormous egoism.... extreme individualism....


3. No, biblical Christianity does not delete faith from justification. By eliminating the doctrine of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, you create a wrong premise. You insist that by embracing faith, we "contradict" you - and I guess you're right. Yes, Christ died for all.... yes, the divine gift of faith apprehends/embraces/trusts/relies in what Christ did and thus benefits from it (Romans 5:1-2, etc. etc.).... yes, not all have faith and thus not all benefit. Faith is the means whereby the gift is applied to the individual.


4. Yes, many of us have given you a long, long, long list of Scriptures that teach this.... we've referred you to the Council of Orange.... we've used examples and illustrations.... but you insist on rejecting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE inseparable united doctrine, you insist on eliminating faith from justification, you insist on parroting the modern tradition of one denomination and just ignoring all the Scriptures that teach the opposite. I'll try again: Your premise is silly and illogical, you ASSUME that is something doesn't benefit an individual, then it was never given. Let's say I GIVE you a Starbucks gift card. It's legit.... I paid for it.... it's real. It's not a fake, it's not a fraud, it's not a trick of a cruel and sick giver, it's not sick joke. Now, let's say you never use it. You don't rely on it. Do you benefit from it? No. Does that prove ergo it's a fraud, a fake, a sick and cruel joke? Does it prove I never paid for it but stole it? No. It only means you never used it and thus never benefited from it. Your whole premise is silly. And illogical. It's possible only because you eliminate faith. To keep my illustration, it would be mandated that if I gave you a card, at that moment COFFEE was poured from heaven and down your gullet and that there is no factor of using the card, trusting/relying/apprehending it. You just eliminate faith and thus destroy the Protestant position of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Friend, historic orthodox Christianity holds that predestination/election impacts who receives the gift of faith - and thus who benefits from Christ's work. Extreme Calvinists, by eliminating faith in justification. must instead put it on Christ. This is flately unbiblical (and terrible!!!).


5. Read the following.

John 3:14-16

John 4:42

John 1:9

Acts 2:21

Romans 5: 1-2

1 John 2:2

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:3-4

1 Timothy 4:10

2 Peter 3:9

1 John 4:4:14

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3:28

Romans 9:30

Galatians 2:16

Philippians 3:9

Romans 3:22

Romans 3:26

Galatians 3:22

Galatians 3:24


6. See if you can be the first TULIP Calvinists to find a verse that states Christ died for ONLY a few.... "ONLY" being the dogma and thus the essential word.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSAfmvRKIVU&t=265s




- Josiah




.

 

[MennoSota]

The absurdity you have is the result of your elimination of faith from justification, your abandonment of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE.

Nope. And you didn't answer my question.

Your absurdity is exactly why universalism is the result of radical Calvinism.

Nope And you didn't answer my question.

Yes, Jesus died for all, just as the Bible so often literally states.

That doesn't answer my question. If a person pays for something in the store, does the person who purchased the item take it home with them or do they leave it in the store? When Jesus atoned (paid for) the sins of the entire world, does he take what he purchased home with him?

No, not all have faith, just as the Bible says.

True, but that doesn't answer the question.
[/QUOTE]Since justification requires BOTH the work of Christ AND faith, those with faith are justified.[/QUOTE]
True, but that's not the question. If Jesus paid for all, does he not take all that he paid for home? Or does he leave his paid goods back at the store?
[/QUOTE]It's not hard.... as long as you don't delete faith, as long as you don't repudiate Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.[/QUOTE]
Who could delete a gift given by God? Not me, nor you. My question, however, isn't about how Christians receive faith. My question is simple.
Did Jesus purchase all of humanity and their sins, but not bring all that he purchased home to be with him?
It's a very specific question. I believe you are capable of answering it. Presently, you have talked around it. Please answer my very specific question.

 

[MennoSota]

MennoSota,


1. Read John 3:16.

I have. Many times.

2. You like to ask questions, perhaps thinking that questions substantiate ANYTHING and/or that questions are apologetics.

I ask questions for you to answer.

Radical Calvinisim and Arminianism both are based on self asking self questions and then self insisting that the answer self gives to the question self asks must be right (because self is SO smart) and that God must agree with self in order to be as smart as self. Enormous egoism.... extreme individualism....

Purely your opinion. Baseless and irrelevant to the discussion.

[/QUOTE]
3. No, biblical Christianity does not delete faith from justification.[/QUOTE]No one has made that claim.

By eliminating the doctrine of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, you create a wrong premise.

I don't eliminate any Sola you mention.

You insist that by embracing faith, we "contradict" you - and I guess you're right.

No, I don't insist that embracing faith contradicts me. Embracing faith is great. God gifts the elect faith. We agree.

Yes, Christ died for all....

Did Jesus pay for all in his death? That is the specific question.

yes, the divine gift of faith apprehends/embraces/trusts/relies in what Christ did and thus benefits from it (Romans 5:1-2, etc. etc.)....

We agree

yes, not all have faith and thus not all benefit.

Indeed, those who are dead in their trespasses and sins do not have faith.

Faith is the means whereby the gift is applied to the individual.

What gift are you referring to? Faith is the gift.

4. Yes, many of us have given you a long, long, long list of Scriptures that teach this....

What do you mean by "this"?

we've referred you to the Council of Orange....

What does the council of orange have to do with Jesus purchasing humanity and their sins?

we've used examples and illustrations....

For what? How have your exanoles and illustrations shown that Jesus purchased all humans sin, but doesn't take his purchase home with him?

but you insist on rejecting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE inseparable united doctrine,

Nope, I don't.

you insist on eliminating faith from justification,

Nope, I don't.

you insist on parroting the modern tradition of one denomination and just ignoring all the Scriptures that teach the opposite.

Nope, I don't.

I'll try again: Your premise is silly and illogical, you ASSUME that is something doesn't benefit an individual, then it was never given. Let's say I GIVE you a Starbucks gift card. It's legit.... I paid for it.... it's real. It's not a fake, it's not a fraud, it's not a trick of a cruel and sick giver, it's not sick joke. Now, let's say you never use it. You don't rely on it. Do you benefit from it? No. Does that prove ergo it's a fraud, a fake, a sick and cruel joke?

I agree, but that isn't what I asked.
If you purchased a Starbucks coffee, would you take what you purchased or leave it to be thrown out?

Does it prove I never paid for it but stole it? No. It only means you never used it and thus never benefited from it.

What makes your statement relevant to Christ's purchase of humanities sins?

Your whole premise is silly. And illogical.

My premise is that a person who purchases an item does not leave his item to be thrown away. When Jesus purchased the sins of the entire world, does he allow that which he purchased to be thrown away or does he keep what he purchased?

It's possible only because you eliminate faith.

No, I don't. I embrace faith as a gift that God gives to those he chooses to make alive with Christ.

To keep my illustration, it would be mandated that if I gave you a card, at that moment COFFEE was poured from heaven and down your gullet and that there is no factor of using the card, trusting/relying/apprehending it.

Better to say, you, by grace, poured the precious coffee down my throat because I was incapable of choosing to use the gift card, purchase the coffee, or pour it down my throat because my sins incapacitated me and made me dead i

You just eliminate faith

No, I don't. I embrace faith as a precious gift given to those God chooses to make alive with Christ.

and thus destroy the Protestant position of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.

Nope

Friend, historic orthodox Christianity holds that predestination/election impacts who receives the gift of faith - and thus who benefits from Christ's work.

Exactly. Those whom God makes alive with Christ receive the gift of faith.
[/QUOTE]Extreme Calvinists, by eliminating faith in justification. must instead put it on Christ. This is flately unbiblical (and terrible!!!).[/QUOTE] I don't eliminates faith, Josiah. I guess I can't be one if those extremists you blather about.

5. Read the following.

John 3:14-16

John 4:42

John 1:9

Acts 2:21

Romans 5: 1-2

1 John 2:2

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:3-4

1 Timothy 4:10

2 Peter 3:9

1 John 4:4:14

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3:28

Romans 9:30

Galatians 2:16

Philippians 3:9

Romans 3:22

Romans 3:26

Galatians 3:22

Galatians 3:24

I have. Now you read those verses.

6. See if you can be the first TULIP Calvinists to find a verse that states Christ died for ONLY a few.... "ONLY" being the dogma and thus the essential word.

No one is looking for such a verse because you have missed the whole point.

Josiah, did Jesus purchase all humanity with his death? If he did, did he choose not to bring what he purchased home with him?

It's not a difficult question. Please don't muddy it up by not answering the question and talking around it like you have just done

 

[Josiah]

MennoSota,


1. Read John 3:16.


2. You like to ask questions, perhaps thinking that questions substantiate ANYTHING and/or that questions are apologetics. Radical Calvinisim and Arminianism both are based on self asking self questions and then self insisting that the answer self gives to the question self asks must be right (because self is SO smart) and that God must agree with self in order to be as smart as self. Enormous egoism.... extreme individualism....


3. No, biblical Christianity does not delete faith from justification. By eliminating the doctrine of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, you create a wrong premise. You insist that by embracing faith, we "contradict" you - and I guess you're right. Yes, Christ died for all.... yes, the divine gift of faith apprehends/embraces/trusts/relies in what Christ did and thus benefits from it (Romans 5:1-2, etc. etc.).... yes, not all have faith and thus not all benefit. Faith is the means whereby the gift is applied to the individual.


4. Yes, many of us have given you a long, long, long list of Scriptures that teach this.... we've referred you to the Council of Orange.... we've used examples and illustrations.... but you insist on rejecting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE inseparable united doctrine, you insist on eliminating faith from justification, you insist on parroting the modern tradition of one denomination and just ignoring all the Scriptures that teach the opposite. I'll try again: Your premise is silly and illogical, you ASSUME that is something doesn't benefit an individual, then it was never given. Let's say I GIVE you a Starbucks gift card. It's legit.... I paid for it.... it's real. It's not a fake, it's not a fraud, it's not a trick of a cruel and sick giver, it's not sick joke. Now, let's say you never use it. You don't rely on it. Do you benefit from it? No. Does that prove ergo it's a fraud, a fake, a sick and cruel joke? Does it prove I never paid for it but stole it? No. It only means you never used it and thus never benefited from it. Your whole premise is silly. And illogical. It's possible only because you eliminate faith. To keep my illustration, it would be mandated that if I gave you a card, at that moment COFFEE was poured from heaven and down your gullet and that there is no factor of using the card, trusting/relying/apprehending it. You just eliminate faith and thus destroy the Protestant position of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Friend, historic orthodox Christianity holds that predestination/election impacts who receives the gift of faith - and thus who benefits from Christ's work. Extreme Calvinists, by eliminating faith in justification. must instead put it on Christ. This is flately unbiblical (and terrible!!!).


5. Read the following.

John 3:14-16

John 4:42

John 1:9

Acts 2:21

Romans 5: 1-2

1 John 2:2

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:3-4

1 Timothy 4:10

2 Peter 3:9

1 John 4:4:14

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3:28

Romans 9:30

Galatians 2:16

Philippians 3:9

Romans 3:22

Romans 3:26

Galatians 3:22

Galatians 3:24


6. See if you can be the first TULIP Calvinists to find a verse that states Christ died for ONLY a few.... "ONLY" being the dogma and thus the essential word.









- Josiah




.

That doesn't answer my question. If a person pays for something in the store, does the person who purchased the item take it home with them or do they leave it in the store? When Jesus atoned (paid for) the sins of the entire world, does he take what he purchased home with him

If you were given a gift but refused it, you don't have it. Let's say I purchase a 2019 Corvette for you. But you don't accept it. Do you have it? Does the reality that you don't have it prove I didn't purchase it for you? If the IRS says YOU may claim a $500 credit, but you never accept that, do you have it? Your wife pours you a wonderful glass of wine but you don't drink it, do you enjoy the wine? If not, is it because she actually never poured that glass of wine?


This dogma, invented first by a FEW radical latter-day Calvinists, flat out contradicts a LOT of Scriptures - which is why you have to spin SCRIPTURE AFTER SCRIPTURE AFTER SCRIPTURE 180 degrees, so that it "means" the exact opposite of what SO MANY verbatim state. And you can't find one verse - no radical Calvinist in 500 years has been able to find even one verse that says Jesus died ONLY for some and NOT for all. This new invention flat out contradicts the verbatim words of SO MUCH of the Bible.... and you have NOTHING, not one verse, not one sentence, that says what you do. Not one. Nothing.


Your premise is simply a repudiation of faith.... the deletion of faith from justification.... the unbiblical, unfounded assumption that if God pays for something, it's ours REGARDLESS OF WHETHER ONE HAS FAITH. It is the repudiation of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. It's why so much of radical Calvinism ended up creating universalism...it's why some radical Calvinists teach that salvation exists where faith does not. Friend, NO ONE has justification apart from faith. NO ONE. Christ's work is ESSENTIAL and so is faith. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE. de

Did Christ die for all? Well, if you will accept the verbatim words of SO MANY Scriptures that state just that (rather than spinning them so as to MEAN the exact opposite of what they all - so many - specifically, literally state). Does that mean all HAVE that gift? No. Because we don't have it unless we accept it by faith.


"For God so loved THE WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life." A wise man said that. It's THERE for all.... but only those with faith benefit by receiving it. You simply want to correct Jesus to, "For God so love just a few that He gave Jesus only and exclusively to them and therefore have everlasting faith."


We have given you SO many clear, bold Scriptures that verbatim, flat out contradict this horrible invention of a few later-day radical Calvinists. You just spin them to insist they all MEAN the exact opposite of what they verbatim STATE. And you can't find one verse that states this weird doctrine, nothing with a "JUST" or "ONLY" or "NOT" ... not one verse that supports this dogma and thus contradicts SO much of Scripture and 1500 years of universal Christian belief. Nothing. Not one verse. Nothing whatsoever.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSAfmvRKIVU&t=265s




.

 

[MennoSota]

If you were given a gift but refused it, you don't have it. Let's say I purchase a 2019 Corvette for you. But you don't accept it. Do you have it? Does the reality that you don't have it prove I didn't purchase it for you? If the IRS says YOU may claim a $500 credit, but you never accept that, do you have it? Your wife pours you a wonderful glass of wine but you don't drink it, do you enjoy the wine? If not, is it because she actually never poured that glass of wine?


This dogma, invented first by a FEW radical latter-day Calvinists, flat out contradicts a LOT of Scriptures - which is why you have to spin SCRIPTURE AFTER SCRIPTURE AFTER SCRIPTURE 180 degrees, so that it "means" the exact opposite of what SO MANY verbatim state. And you can't find one verse - no radical Calvinist in 500 years has been able to find even one verse that says Jesus died ONLY for some and NOT for all. This new invention flat out contradicts the verbatim words of SO MUCH of the Bible.... and you have NOTHING, not one verse, not one sentence, that says what you do. Not one. Nothing.


Your premise is simply a repudiation of faith.... the deletion of faith from justification.... the unbiblical, unfounded assumption that if God pays for something, it's ours REGARDLESS OF WHETHER ONE HAS FAITH. It is the repudiation of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. It's why so much of radical Calvinism ended up creating universalism...it's why some radical Calvinists teach that salvation exists where faith does not. Friend, NO ONE has justification apart from faith. NO ONE. Christ's work is ESSENTIAL and so is faith. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE. de

Did Christ die for all? Well, if you will accept the verbatim words of SO MANY Scriptures that state just that (rather than spinning them so as to MEAN the exact opposite of what they all - so many - specifically, literally state). Does that mean all HAVE that gift? No. Because we don't have it unless we accept it by faith.


"For God so loved THE WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life." A wise man said that. It's THERE for all.... but only those with faith benefit by receiving it. You simply want to correct Jesus to, "For God so love just a few that He gave Jesus only and exclusively to them and therefore have everlasting faith."


We have given you SO many clear, bold Scriptures that verbatim, flat out contradict this horrible invention of a few later-day radical Calvinists. You just spin them to insist they all MEAN the exact opposite of what they verbatim STATE. And you can't find one verse that states this weird doctrine, nothing with a "JUST" or "ONLY" or "NOT" ... not one verse that supports this dogma and thus contradicts SO much of Scripture and 1500 years of universal Christian belief. Nothing. Not one verse. Nothing whatsoever.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSAfmvRKIVU&t=265s




.

Are you saying that all humanity has been given the gift of faith, but only those who use it go to heaven?

Again, you do not answer my question.
Did Jesus purchase all humanity and then fail to bring his purchase home?

Josiah, either Jesus is 100% the Savior...or he isn't...and you are 100% the Savior. I seem to recall someone saying that.
If humans are responsible to use faith in order to be saved, have you not made humans their own savior's?