WORKS

[YourTruthGod]

These are the works of the law that the people used to have to do to be righteous and justified before God:

The Burnt Offering; The Grain Offering; The Fellowship Offering; The Sin Offering; The Guilt Offering; Dietary Laws; Purification After Childbirth; Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases; Cleansing From Mildew; Discharges Causing Uncleanness; The Day of Atonement; Rules for Priests; The Sabbath; Firstfruits; The Passover and Unleavened Bread; Feast of Weeks; Feast of Trumpets; Feast of Tabernacles; Oil and Bread Set Before The LORD; the Sabbath Year; The Year of Jubilee; Circumcision.

Those are the 'not of works' that Paul spoke about.

Paul did not mean 'not of obedience'.

 

[Josiah]

https://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?6902-Is-Jesus-The-Savior

 

[YourTruthGod]

I don't go to links.
This is a discussion site. You need to discuss here instead of just dropping links.

 

[Josiah]

{Note: When "salvation" is used, I'm speaking of "born again" of "regeneration" of the COMING of spiritual life, faith and the Holy Spirit (Justification in the narrow sense), of "initial grace." Yes, Christians are to grow and mature and become Christ like but th is what Christians do, not how the dead initially receive faith, life, the Holy Spirit]



Jesus Himself asked the most important question in the universe, in eternity.... "Who do you say I am?"


The central message, the foundation, the keystone, the distinctive mark of the Christian faith is the belief that we are by nature DEAD and we can't do anything about that - "we've fallen and we can't get up", we are sinners. We need to be SAVED, RESCUED.... and that must come from God for ONLY He can do this.... and this has happened, Jesus is the Savior, Jesus does this via His incarnation, life, death and especially resurrection.


The Devil and our dead, sinful, unregenerate self ("the old Adam") will work hard, work overtime, to undermine and deny that. Even in the "old Adam" of the Christian. Trying to make self as BIG as possible ("I ain't that bad, just you are" ) and Christ as LITTLE as possible ("technically, Jesus SAVES no one, He just makes it possible for all to be saved" "Jesus is not the Savior but the divine Helper, Possibility-Maker, Door Opener, Orderer"). Synergism is a fruit of this. Satan is not so stupid to out right deny Jesus but just belittle Him, make Him as impotent and irrelevant as possible.... while making self as well, as good, as capable, as important in the salvation of himself as possible. Make Jesus small.... make self big.


Christianity proclaims that JESUS (not self) IS (really, actually, factually) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) SAVIOR (not just a helper or door opening or possibility-maker). There is no other name under heaven by which salvation can come (including your own). It's call Monergism - there is ONE Savior, and it ain't you, it's Jesus. For salvation, Christianity directs us to the Cross, not the Mirror.


You'll find LOTS of Christians who will say "Jesus is my Savior" and then go on and on and on and on contradicting that, denouncing that, INSISTING that actually self is the reason self is going to Heaven because SELF did X,Y,Z - ultimately, self doing X,Y,Z is why they will be in heaven (a repudiation of the Gospel, of Christianity, of the central teaching that Jesus is the Savior). They will proclaim (often not realizing it) that they are saying Jesus technically saves no one, He just orders people to be saved and maybe HELPS them in that regard or OPENS THE DOOR to heaven making salvation something we can achieve - anything, anything BUT the Savior. Why? Satan wants all to look away from Christ, to denounce the Gospel (and he likely needs to get us to do this in ways we don't recognize). Satan feeds our ego ("You ain't so bad..... you can do this") and ultimately to credit self and self doing X,Y.Z. and our "old Adam" likes for our ego to be fed and encouraged; we tend to swallow this. It means we abandon Christianity and go to other religions, all of which teach that while people are seriously messed up, it's not something they can't fix with sufficient divine help and time (no need for a SAVIOR but only a HELPER, TEACHER, INSPIRATION, POSSIBILITY-MAKER). In reality, THAT is the soteriology expressed by a lot of Christians (perhaps unexamined). And it's the anti-thesis of Christianity, it's the teaching of Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism.



WHO is the SAVIOR?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you. HIS works are why I'm going to heaven.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you. My works are why I'm going to heaven.


Which is it? The Devil, the fallen world, our own sinful self will TRY as HARD AS WE CAN to say "self" while trying to sound Christian and fit Jesus in there somewhere, just not as THE SAVIOR. The Devil, the fallen world, our sinful self will try to pat self on the back for doing X,Y,Z - why we are headed for heaven, to make Jesus as small as we can, self as big as we can, to get our eyes off the Cross and on the mirror.



It is at least deceptive if not outright lying to say "Jesus is the Savior" if you don't believe that, you believe the reason you're going to heaven is because YOU did "x,y,z", because YOU adequately jumped through a bunch of hoops and God simply rewarded that.

It is at least deceptive if not outright lying to say "Jesus is the Savior" if actually, technically He saves no one but only makes it POSSIBLE for all to be saved IF they do "x,y,z" if they successfully make it happen by their own works.

It is at least deceptive if not outright lying to say "Jesus is the Savior but I'm also the Savior because He couldn't do it if I didn't do my part." That makes Jesus not THE Savior but AT BEST part-Savior (the part that actually didn't save you) and you are part-Savior (doing the part that actually means you're going to heaven).

Who is the Savior? Answer that and all Christianity falls into place. Answer that, and you can understand Scriptures, all of which exist to confirm that point.




- Josiah




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

These are the works of the law that the people used to have to do to be righteous and justified before God:

The Burnt Offering; The Grain Offering; The Fellowship Offering; The Sin Offering; The Guilt Offering; Dietary Laws; Purification After Childbirth; Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases; Cleansing From Mildew; Discharges Causing Uncleanness; The Day of Atonement; Rules for Priests; The Sabbath; Firstfruits; The Passover and Unleavened Bread; Feast of Weeks; Feast of Trumpets; Feast of Tabernacles; Oil and Bread Set Before The LORD; the Sabbath Year; The Year of Jubilee; Circumcision.

Those are the 'not of works' that Paul spoke about.

Paul did not mean 'not of obedience'.

You are correct that saint Paul did not mean "stop obeying God" when he wrote "not of works". The works he wrote about were the works that the law required Jews to perform to be faithful to their covenant with God and the various feasts, sacrifices, and acts of religious obedience that you mention are among the laws that saint Paul was saying were not required of gentile Christians nor even of Jewish Christians because the system of sacrifices was abrogated by the one and final sacrifice offered when Jesus Christ offered himself for the benefit of human beings on the cross.

 

[YourTruthGod]

You are correct that saint Paul did not mean "stop obeying God" when he wrote "not of works". The works he wrote about were the works that the law required Jews to perform to be faithful to their covenant with God and the various feasts, sacrifices, and acts of religious obedience that you mention are among the laws that saint Paul was saying were not required of gentile Christians nor even of Jewish Christians because the system of sacrifices was abrogated by the one and final sacrifice offered when Jesus Christ offered himself for the benefit of human beings on the cross.

Right! No more of the works of the law which were the purification works.
Notice that Paul speaks about circumcision so much because circumcision was a sign and seal that a person was ceremonially clean, their souls were atoned, and that circumcised person was in the covenant with God.

The Gentiles had to have it explained to them how they could now be saved, since they were the disobedient and unclean people who didn't purify themselves and enter a covenant with God.

Do you realize how rare we are to know this truth? Just look at all the false teachers and denominations that teach Paul is saying faith alone.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Right! No more of the works of the law which were the purification works.
Notice that Paul speaks about circumcision so much because circumcision was a sign and seal that a person was ceremonially clean, their souls were atoned, and that circumcised person was in the covenant with God.

The Gentiles had to have it explained to them how they could now be saved, since they were the disobedient and unclean people who didn't purify themselves and enter a covenant with God.

Do you realize how rare we are to know this truth? Just look at all the false teachers and denominations that teach Paul is saying faith alone.

It is not rare among Catholic Christians but it may be among Protestants.

 

[YourTruthGod]

It is not rare among Catholic Christians but it may be among Protestants.

It is rare among Catholics. Catholics are not taught that in Catechism, but they seem more readily available to believe it.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Faith and obedience to Jesus is what saves. The works WE HAVE TO DO is repent of our sins and forgive others so that we can get saved.

Catholics preach against that truth and they baptize infants and think paying for prayers, and donating to their church is the good works that save.

MC, I think this is where we part way severely.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is rare among Catholics. Catholics are not taught that in Catechism, but they seem more readily available to believe it.

You are wrong about the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church definitely does teach that saint Paul did not mean "stop obeying God" when he wrote "not of works". The Catechism of the Catholic Church definitely does teach that the works that saint Paul wrote about were the works that the law required Jews to perform to be faithful to their covenant with God and the various feasts, sacrifices, and acts of religious obedience that are mentioned in the laws that saint Paul was saying were not required of gentile Christians nor even of Jewish Christians because the system of sacrifices was abrogated by the one and final sacrifice offered when Jesus Christ offered himself for the benefit of human beings on the cross.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Faith and obedience to Jesus is what saves. The works WE HAVE TO DO is repent of our sins and forgive others so that we can get saved.

Catholics preach against that truth and they baptize infants and think paying for prayers, and donating to their church is the good works that save.

MC, I think this is where we part way severely.

Your claims about what the Catholic Church teaches are incorrect.

What is the virtue of faith? Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and all that he has revealed to us and that the Church proposes for our belief because God is Truth itself. By faith the human person freely commits himself to God. Therefore, the believer seeks to know and do the will of God because “faith works through charity” (Galatians 5:6).

What is merit? In general merit refers to the right to recompense for a good deed. With regard to God, we of ourselves are not able to merit anything, having received everything freely from him. However, God gives us the possibility of acquiring merit through union with the love of Christ, who is the source of our merits before God. The merits for good works, therefore must be attributed in the first place to the grace of God and then to the free will of man.

What are the goods that we can merit? Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods, suitable for us, can be merited in accordance with the plan of God. No one, however, can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion and justification.

Are all called to Christian holiness? All the faithful are called to Christian holiness. This is the fullness of Christian life and the perfection of charity and it is brought about by intimate union with Christ and, in him, with the most Holy Trinity. The path to holiness for a Christian goes by way of the cross and will come to its fulfilment in the final resurrection of the just, in which God will be all in all.

 

[MennoSota]

MC, do you see the glaring contradiction in this paragraph from your church?

What are the goods that we can merit? Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods, suitable for us, can be merited in accordance with the plan of God. No one, however, can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion and justification.

It is doubtful you can see the problem as it teaches salvation and sanctification by works, yet scripture teaches otherwise.
Hebrews 10:1-10 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’” When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.
And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

[YourTruthGod]

You are wrong about the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church definitely does teach that saint Paul did not mean "stop obeying God" when he wrote "not of works". The Catechism of the Catholic Church definitely does teach that the works that saint Paul wrote about were the works that the law required Jews to perform to be faithful to their covenant with God and the various feasts, sacrifices, and acts of religious obedience that are mentioned in the laws that saint Paul was saying were not required of gentile Christians nor even of Jewish Christians because the system of sacrifices was abrogated by the one and final sacrifice offered when Jesus Christ offered himself for the benefit of human beings on the cross.

Okay then, name the things Catholics believe a person has to obey to be saved.

Now maybe you will see the error of your church.

I am waiting for you to tell me what you believe then that Paul says we are to do to receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[Andrew]

Could someone please explain what "works" actually are??? give me examples please!

 

[YourTruthGod]

Could someone please explain what "works" actually are??? give me examples please!

A work is anything that Jesus tells you to do. It is to humble yourself as a child ready to do everything he says; it is to believe/have faith, and confess and repent of your sins. Do what you can, stop fornicating and get married; stop stealing, stop lying. Call on Jesus to save you.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Okay then, name the things Catholics believe a person has to obey to be saved.

Now maybe you will see the error of your church.

I am waiting for you to tell me what you believe then that Paul says we are to do to receive the Holy Spirit.

The primary source for teaching about what the Lord requires of the faithful is the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ in the gospels. So it is to the gospels that I shall go first.

• A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:34-35)
• If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. These things I command you, so that you will love one another. (John 15:10-17)
• Jesus answered, The most important is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: You shall love your neighbour as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these. (Mark 12:29-31)
• But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them. (Luke 6:27-31)

We can move on to saint Paul's teaching next time.

 

[Andrew]

A work is anything that Jesus tells you to do. It is to humble yourself as a child ready to do everything he says; it is to believe/have faith, and confess and repent of your sins. Do what you can, stop fornicating and get married; stop stealing, stop lying. Call on Jesus to save you.

I do all of those, and yes I have a bad habit of quiting and starting up cigarettes again, Mathew 15:11 It’s not what goes into your mouth that defiles you; you are defiled by the words that come out of your mouth.
But its not healthy and it's not really taking care of my body which is the temple.
This is between me and God, I'm sure many Christians eat fatty foods that will eventually kill them. But yes I plan on quiting again, I hope its for good.
But I used to steal and have sex with married woman and I used to lie. i have been celebrant every since God came into my life, and I stopped stealing once I was hit with the Holy Ghost I stopped lying all the time too... this is why I am being honest about all this

 

[YourTruthGod]

The primary source for teaching about what the Lord requires of the faithful is the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ in the gospels. So it is to the gospels that I shall go first.

• A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:34-35)
• If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. These things I command you, so that you will love one another. (John 15:10-17)
• Jesus answered, The most important is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: You shall love your neighbour as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these. (Mark 12:29-31)
• But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them. (Luke 6:27-31)

We can move on to saint Paul's teaching next time.

Nothing there about repenting of your sins.

In addition, you named things no infant could understand.

 

[RichWh1]

Could someone please explain what "works" actually are??? give me examples please!

The good works spoken by Paul refer to the works that God has prepared for each person who is saved.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[YourTruthGod]

I do all of those, and yes I have a bad habit of quiting and starting up cigarettes again, Mathew 15:11 It’s not what goes into your mouth that defiles you; you are defiled by the words that come out of your mouth.

You just tried to defend sin. Smoke from those cigarettes come out of your mouth.

Anything that has mastered you is sin.

But its not healthy and it's not really taking care of my body which is the temple.
This is between me and God, I'm sure many Christians eat fatty foods that will eventually kill them. But yes I plan on quiting again, I hope its for good.
But I used to steal and have sex with married woman and I used to lie. i have been celebrant every since God came into my life, and I stopped stealing once I was hit with the Holy Ghost I stopped lying all the time too... this is why I am being honest about all this

That is so good.

Now there is something else you might want to stop doing---preaching the false doctrine that Jesus saves us in a state of unbelief and disobedience.