Why did Polycarp quote the book of Tobit?

[NathanH83]

Alms delivers from death?
Isn’t that something found in the book of Tobit and nowhere else in the Bible?

 

[NathanH83]

Wasn’t Polycarp directly discipled by John? The same John who wrote the book of Revelation?

 

[Josiah]

More "bait and switch...."

More speculation... more circular reasoning.... still no point.



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[NathanH83]

That’s a screenshot from the “Ante-Nicene church fathers”
Feel free to look it up yourself.

 

[Josiah]

That’s a screenshot from the “Ante-Nicene church fathers”
Feel free to look it up yourself.

It's not our job to prove you correct, that's YOUR job. I realize you can't do it (and so NEED to give the job t us) but it's not our responsibility. We all know that.

I have no idea why you posted some page.. even with yellow highlighting... but I can't find the words "Tobit" or "Book" anywhere there, nothing that indicates it's a quote from anything or anyone.

This is just more "bait and switch".... more pure speculation and baseless claims and "what if's?" With NOTHING - absolutely nothing - to susbstantiate anything, not even an attempt to do so. Why is this not surprising? It's what you've been doing for over two years - in thread after thread, post after post, over and over and over and over and over, never with any point.




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[Andrew]

It's not our job to prove you correct, that's YOUR job. I realize you can't do it (and so NEED to give the job t us) but it's not our responsibility. We all know that.

I have no idea why you posted some page.. even with yellow highlighting... but I can't find the words "Tobit" or "Book" anywhere there, nothing that indicates it's a quote from anything or anyone.

This is just more "bait and switch".... more pure speculation and baseless claims and "what if's?" With NOTHING - absolutely nothing - to susbstantiate anything, not even an attempt to do so. Why is this not surprising? It's what you've been doing for over two years - in thread after thread, post after post, over and over and over and over and over, never with any point.




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Here is some cRaZy stuff Jerome said about the book of Tobit being used by the men in the Church, although not canon
Note: he speaks of the Hebrew canon aka "Hebrew truth"


Prologue to Jonah (excerpt)

The book of Tobit, though not in the canon, is all the same used by the men of the Church, and he [it?] mentions Jonah when Tobit says to his son, "my son, I am old and ready to leave this life. Take your sons and go to Media, my son. For I know what the prophet Jonah has said about Nineveh: she will be destroyed"

 

[Josiah]

Here is some cRaZy stuff Jerome said about the book of Tobit being used by the men in the Church, although not canon
Note: he speaks of the Hebrew canon aka "Hebrew truth"


Prologue to Jonah (excerpt)

The book of Tobit, though not in the canon, is all the same used by the men of the Church, and he [it?] mentions Jonah when Tobit says to his son, "my son, I am old and ready to leave this life. Take your sons and go to Media, my son. For I know what the prophet Jonah has said about Nineveh: she will be destroyed"

Thank you, Andrew.

Interesting but of course it does not provide evidence for either of Nathan's claims, namely, that the man with the very common name of Clement that Paul mentions in Philippians is actually St. Clement of Rome (claimed to be the Third Pope) - indeed, that St. Clement was 'direct disciple" of St. Pauls. And his other claim here, namely, that St. Clement states in his first epistle that the BOOK of Judith is divine Scripture, inerrant, fully/equally canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God and must be in every tome marketed with the word "BIBLE" appearing on the cover. And of course, that does not prove that Polycarp specifically quoted from the Book of Judith and thus proves that Christianity had proclaimed that the Book of Judith is divine Scripture, inerrant, fully canonical, divnely-inscripturated words of God.


Andrew, no one here has disputed that there were LOTS of books floating around in the first few centuries of Christianity.... it was pretty fluid... and there are a few (3 or so perhaps) that specifically share their opinion that such a book is "Scripture" books like the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabus, the Epistle to the Leodiceans, the Epistle of First Clement, the Revelation of Peter, and many more. And also that some books now with affirmation were at times questioned then, books like James, Jude, Hebrews, 2 and 3 John and the Revelation of John. Yup. There was no formal declaration by Christianity.... there was no declaration by Protestantism.... no one with the last name of Protestant went into all churches and ripped out a bunch of books and then put the books back and no one noticed. Nope. It's a matter of TRADITION. Not perfect, not absolute.... it took several centuries.

And, IMO, what is NOT canonical is NOT critical. And IMO the reality that it seems Christians have NEVER agreed on which DEUTEROcanonical and non-canonical books are in any way embraced.... NO denomination that embraces any of these agrees with any other on WHICH to accept. The RCC now has 7.... the Church of England has 15.... Luther had 8.... and the Orthodox Church all their own unique (and numerous) sets of these. YES! Good to read! Very helpful! Often inspirational! But then LOTS of things are. And YES! They may be put in tomes that companies market to the buying public (no laws against this). There are readings from some in the Anglican and Lutheran lectionaries... Luther lectured on some and often used texts from some for sermons... the only Study I've seen on them is put out by the LCMS Publishing House, CPH (my church did this study a few years ago). But since they are not canonical, not normative then it doesn't seem essential that all 2.2 billion Christians agree on which ones are such.




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[Andrew]

Well "a LOT of books floating around" in early Christianity also included Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus etc, I guess they believed in whatever books since they were all quoted in the same manner in the churches early years

 

[NathanH83]

It's not our job to prove you correct, that's YOUR job. I realize you can't do it (and so NEED to give the job t us) but it's not our responsibility. We all know that.

I have no idea why you posted some page.. even with yellow highlighting... but I can't find the words "Tobit" or "Book" anywhere there, nothing that indicates it's a quote from anything or anyone.

This is just more "bait and switch".... more pure speculation and baseless claims and "what if's?" With NOTHING - absolutely nothing - to susbstantiate anything, not even an attempt to do so. Why is this not surprising? It's what you've been doing for over two years - in thread after thread, post after post, over and over and over and over and over, never with any point.




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“Technically Speaking”

If Polycarp didn’t say “Book” and if Polycarp didn’t say “Tobit” then he’s not quoting the book of Tobit….TECHNICALLY SPEAKING!

Even though the book of Tobit says “almsgiving delivers from death”, and also Polycarp said “Almsgiving delivers from death”.

They both used the exact same phrase. But since Polycarp didn’t say book or Tobit, then he’s not quoting Tobit. TECHNICALLY SPEAKING!

Get off the field.

 

[Josiah]

“Technically Speaking”

Truthfully speaking. You made a claim. Then proved it false.



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[NathanH83]

Truthfully speaking. You made a claim. Then proved it false.



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You’re not being truthful. You’re being technical.

 

[Josiah]

You make claims. Endlessly.

You don't substantiate them as true. Truth perhaps being entirely irrelevant to you.

You're now trying to hide under "well, maybe I'm not TECHNICALLY truthful" LOL. It's just another way of noting the reality.

You're good at trying to turn the tables, asking questions, stating endless "what if's", and lots and lots of diversions and evasions. But more interesting, you love to make statements and then YOU YOURSELF prove it's wrong! Amazing how you do that (as here). Laughable. You like to claim "Someone said something" (Never telling us why that even matters) then PROVE it's not true. You seem to like to shoot yourself in the foot. NOW we get the "Well, TECHNICALLY I'm wrong"... well, what is obvious is that you are just wrong.




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[NathanH83]

Here’s a video where Bible teachers today object to the phrase “alms delivers from death” as found in the book of Tobit:

Now, why would Polycarp, a disciple of John, be in agreement with that phrase?

 

[NathanH83]

You make claims. Endlessly.

You don't substantiate them as true. Truth perhaps being entirely irrelevant to you.

You're now trying to hide under "well, maybe I'm not TECHNICALLY truthful" LOL. It's just another way of noting the reality.

You're good at trying to turn the tables, asking questions, stating endless "what if's", and lots and lots of diversions and evasions. But more interesting, you love to make statements and then YOU YOURSELF prove it's wrong! Amazing how you do that (as here). Laughable. You like to claim "Someone said something" (Never telling us why that even matters) then PROVE it's not true. You seem to like to shoot yourself in the foot. NOW we get the "Well, TECHNICALLY I'm wrong"... well, what is obvious is that you are just wrong.




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I didn’t make the claim that alms delivers from death. The book of Tobit makes that claim. And Polycarp agrees with it.

Why?

 

[Josiah]

I didn’t make the claim that alms delivers from death. The book of Tobit makes that claim. And Polycarp agrees with it.

Polycarp never mentions the Book of Tobit AT ALL.

And there's ZERO reason to assume he's quoting from Tobit.

Your claim is obviously false.

We all know that.




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[NathanH83]

You make claims. Endlessly.

You don't substantiate them as true. Truth perhaps being entirely irrelevant to you.

You're now trying to hide under "well, maybe I'm not TECHNICALLY truthful" LOL. It's just another way of noting the reality.

You're good at trying to turn the tables, asking questions, stating endless "what if's", and lots and lots of diversions and evasions. But more interesting, you love to make statements and then YOU YOURSELF prove it's wrong! Amazing how you do that (as here). Laughable. You like to claim "Someone said something" (Never telling us why that even matters) then PROVE it's not true. You seem to like to shoot yourself in the foot. NOW we get the "Well, TECHNICALLY I'm wrong"... well, what is obvious is that you are just wrong.




.

There’s a difference between being technical and being truthful.

It’s a truthful statement to say that George Washington is on the dollar bill. Even though technically speaking he’s not on the dollar bill, since it’s just picture of him.

You’re being technical, and as a result, you are being untruthful.

It’s a truthful statement to say that I wasn’t drinking and driving. Even though technically speaking, I WAS drinking a bottle of water while driving.

But for you to go around telling people that I drink and drive, although “technically” true, is a dishonest and slanderous statement, since that phrase is most commonly associated with alcohol.

You’re being technical, and therefore untruthful.

Technically speaking, Polycarp didn’t say “Book of Tobit”.

But the truth is, Polycarp said “almsgiving delivers from death” which is a phrase found in the book of Tobit, and found nowhere in any other book of the Bible.

You’re being technical, and therefore untruthful.

Any normal child with common sense can see straight through your twisted bag of tricks.

 

[Andrew]

For almsgiving delivers from death
- Book of Tobit (12:9)

 

[Josiah]

Technically speaking, Polycarp didn’t say “Book of Tobit”.

He didn't mention the book at all.

But the truth is, Polycarp said “almsgiving delivers from death” which is a phrase found in the book of Tobit, and found nowhere in any other boo

Prove it.

Prove that that position was conveyed NOWHERE ELSE than in the Book of Tobit. Prove Polycarp COULD NOT have simply heard that position from individuals from people he knew, that no rabbi could have expressed that position, that the only way Polycarp COULD have known this is from the Book of Tobit.

Then prove he's not simply conveying a though he knows is found in Tobit but QUOTING that book. To help you, let's say I convey that the color black is the most unsafe color for a car.... and that statement is found in a 1987 edition of Consumer's Report so THEREFORE, I'm quoting that article without ever giving any hint of such. Follow? You claim is POSSIBLE but not substantiated. There's a HUGE difference, as we all know. You said he QUOTED from a certain BOOK.... but it seems what you think he did was express a view that is found in that book. The two points are apples and oranges, light years away from each other, as obviously you know;.

You’re being technical, and therefore untruthful.

Interesting view: That if something is technically wrong, it's therefore correct. Does this mean that since you can't substantiate your claims, therefore they must be correct- and that's why you don't need to substantiate them? Any normal child with common sense can see straight through your twisted bag of tricks.





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[Josiah]

... ME to SUSPECT....

Nathan,


YOU can personally SUSPECT anything you like.
You personally can SUSPECT that Joseph Smith was an Apostle of Jesus to re-establish the church ... and you would not be alone.
You personally can SUSPECT that the Pope is infallible....
You personally can SUSPECT that the Earth is flat....
You personally can SUSPECT that St. Mary can fly....
And anything else.

And you can share WHY you yourself - single, fallible, fallen individual you are - you personally SUSPECT that. But that doesn't make it true.

But you've claimed things as facts, as truths. BOLD statements of truth, not what you chose to personally suspect. Have you EVER begun a thread or post with "I choose to personally suspect xyz because....?" Nope.

You've made ENDLESS claims.... not regarding what YOU SUSPECT but what is true. Maybe one of your many problems is that you seem unable to state what you wish to convey? Well, maybe Or that you are entirely unable to distinquish between what you suspect and what is true.


You've not stated, "as I read this, it causes ME to SUSPECT that MAYBE Polycarp has something in Tobit in mind." You said that Polycarp quotes the Book of Tobit - then proved he did not. Clearly this is about what YOU SUSPECT, not what is true. Your focus is on what YOU SUSPECT, not truth.

You've not stated, "I SUSPECT that The Early Church at some authoritative, ecumenical meeting declared all the books listed in Article 6 of the 1563 Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England to be the inerrant, fully canonical, divinely inscripturated words of God - it's just that I have no evidence of such a meeting or decision, but I choose to SUSPECT that." Nope, you said The Early Church decided that.

Perhaps you just confuse what you suspect with truth. Or as has been theorized before, you just confuse your speculations, claims, guesses with truth. And then exempt them from any accountability, anything beyond the reality that YOU personally SUSPECT something. Your ego is amazing.... that what you personally suspect is therefore truth.


Nathan,

For two years, you have made ENDLESS claims... not of what you personally have chosen to suspect but what is FACT.
Claims here. Claims there. Claims everywhere.
NEVER with ANY substantiation for it being true.
NEVER with even an ounce of interest in whether it is true.
RARELY with any reason or point.
On and on and on and on and on and on.
Sometimes you yourself prove yourself wrong.
Otherwise you yourself show you have NOTHING to support the claim as true.
When people point out errors, you just ignore or evade or change the subject or flame.
Or respond with questions or "what if's" or "but isn't it possible" none of which are substantiation.
What you do is DANGEROUS.
It's the way of false teachers, of heretics, false prophets, and cult leaders.
The Bible warns us of people who do as you do.
The Bible instructs us to put such far away from us.
Truth matters!
Abandon your ways.
You can!




.

 

[Andrew]

Nathan,


YOU can personally SUSPECT anything you like.
You personally can SUSPECT that Joseph Smith was an Apostle of Jesus to re-establish the church ... and you would not be alone.
You personally can SUSPECT that the Pope is infallible....
You personally can SUSPECT that the Earth is flat....
You personally can SUSPECT that St. Mary can fly....
And anything else.

And you can share WHY you yourself - single, fallible, fallen individual you are - you personally SUSPECT that. But that doesn't make it true.

But you've claimed things as facts, as truths. BOLD statements of truth, not what you chose to personally suspect. Have you EVER begun a thread or post with "I choose to personally suspect xyz because....?" Nope.

You've made ENDLESS claims.... not regarding what YOU SUSPECT but what is true. Maybe one of your many problems is that you seem unable to state what you wish to convey? Well, maybe Or that you are entirely unable to distinquish between what you suspect and what is true.


You've not stated, "as I read this, it causes ME to SUSPECT that MAYBE Polycarp has something in Tobit in mind." You said that Polycarp quotes the Book of Tobit - then proved he did not. Clearly this is about what YOU SUSPECT, not what is true. Your focus is on what YOU SUSPECT, not truth.

You've not stated, "I SUSPECT that The Early Church at some authoritative, ecumenical meeting declared all the books listed in Article 6 of the 1563 Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England to be the inerrant, fully canonical, divinely inscripturated words of God - it's just that I have no evidence of such a meeting or decision, but I choose to SUSPECT that." Nope, you said The Early Church decided that.

Perhaps you just confuse what you suspect with truth. Or as has been theorized before, you just confuse your speculations, claims, guesses with truth. And then exempt them from any accountability, anything beyond the reality that YOU personally SUSPECT something. Your ego is amazing.... that what you personally suspect is therefore truth.


Nathan,

For two years, you have made ENDLESS claims... not of what you personally have chosen to suspect but what is FACT.
Claims here. Claims there. Claims everywhere.
NEVER with ANY substantiation for it being true.
NEVER with even an ounce of interest in whether it is true.
RARELY with any reason or point.
On and on and on and on and on and on.
Sometimes you yourself prove yourself wrong.
Otherwise you yourself show you have NOTHING to support the claim as true.
When people point out errors, you just ignore or evade or change the subject or flame.
Or respond with questions or "what if's" or "but isn't it possible" none of which are substantiation.
What you do is DANGEROUS.
It's the way of false teachers, of heretics, false prophets, and cult leaders.
The Bible warns us of people who do as you do.
The Bible instructs us to put such far away from us.
Truth matters!
Abandon your ways.
You can!




.

"For the studies of the Hebrews rebuke us and find fault with us, to translate this for the ears of Latins contrary to their canon. But it is better to be judging the opinion of the Pharisees to displease and to be subject to the commands of bishops"
-Jerome

JOSIAH, do you agree with this statement?