What does Arminianism actually teach about Salvation?

[atpollard]

There have been a lot of claims about what Arminianism teaches, and most have not been true. So the purpose of this topic is to set the record straight on what Wesslyian Arminianism actually teaches. The reason that I chose to focus on Arminianism as taught by John Wesley is because he was the founder of the Methodist Church (which gave birth to the Holiness Movement and the Evangelical and Church of God family of denominations). When the rest of Christiandom was asleep, John Wesley was used to start a fire of God to train people to live a Holy life and reach the lost as an expression of their Christian walk. For that reason, his thoughts are worth knowing and understanding, even if we disagree on certain details.

The following is from the Methodist Church and is based heavily on the teachings and writings of John Wesley. It reflects an Arminian view of salvation, often called synergism, in which God offers man the gift of Salvation and man is able to accept or refuse that gift.

Wesley and the early Methodists were particularly concerned about inviting people to experience God’s grace and to grow in their knowledge and love of God through disciplined Christian living. They placed primary emphasis on Christian living, on putting faith and love into action. This emphasis on what Wesley referred to as “practical divinity” has continued to be a hallmark of United Methodism today.

The distinctive shape of our theological heritage can be seen not only in this emphasis on Christian living, but also in Wesley’s distinctive understanding of God’s saving grace. Although Wesley shared with many other Christians a belief in salvation by grace, he combined them in a powerful way to create distinctive emphases for living the full Christian life.

Grace
Grace is central to our understanding of Christian faith and life.

Grace can be defined as the love and mercy given to us by God because God wants us to have it, not because of anything we have done to earn it. We read in the Letter to the Ephesians: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God — not the result of works, so that no one may boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Our United Methodist heritage is rooted in a deep and profound understanding of God’s grace. This incredible grace flows from God’s great love for us. Did you have to memorize John 3:16 in Sunday school when you were a child? There was a good reason. This one verse summarizes the gospel: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.” The ability to call to mind God’s love and God’s gift of Jesus Christ is a rich resource for theology and faith.”

John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement, described God’s grace as threefold:

1. prevenient grace
2. justifying grace
3. sanctifying grace

Prevenient Grace
Wesley understood grace as God’s active presence in our lives. This presence is not dependent on human actions or human response. It is a gift — a gift that is always available, but that can be refused.

God’s grace stirs up within us a desire to know God and empowers us to respond to God’s invitation to be in relationship with God. God’s grace enables us to discern differences between good and evil and makes it possible for us to choose good….

God takes the initiative in relating to humanity. We do not have to beg and plead for God’s love and grace. God actively seeks us!

Justifying Grace
Paul wrote to the church in Corinth: “In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them” (2 Corinthians 5:19). And in his letter to the Roman Christians, Paul wrote: “But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

These verses demonstrate the justifying grace of God. They point to reconciliation, pardon, and restoration. Through the work of God in Christ our sins are forgiven, and our relationship with God is restored. According to John Wesley, founder of the Methodist movement, the image of God — which has been distorted by sin — is renewed within us through Christ’s death.

Again, this dimension of God’s grace is a gift. God’s grace alone brings us into relationship with God. There are no hoops through which we have to jump in order to please God and to be loved by God. God has acted in Jesus Christ. We need only to respond in faith.

Conversion
This process of salvation involves a change in us that we call conversion. Conversion is a turning around, leaving one orientation for another. It may be sudden and dramatic, or gradual and cumulative. But in any case, it’s a new beginning. Following Jesus’ words to Nicodemus, “You must be born anew” (John 3:7 RSV), we speak of this conversion as rebirth, new life in Christ, or regeneration.

Following Paul and Luther, John Wesley called this process justification. Justification is what happens when Christians abandon all those vain attempts to justify themselves before God, to be seen as “just” in God’s eyes through religious and moral practices. It’s a time when God’s “justifying grace” is experienced and accepted, a time of pardon and forgiveness, of new peace and joy and love. Indeed, we’re justified by God’s grace through faith.

Justification is also a time of repentance — turning away from behaviors rooted in sin and toward actions that express God’s love. In this conversion we can expect to receive assurance of our present salvation through the Holy Spirit “bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God” (Romans 8:16).

Sanctifying Grace
Salvation is not a static, one-time event in our lives. It is the ongoing experience of God’s gracious presence transforming us into whom God intends us to be. John Wesley described this dimension of God’s grace as sanctification, or holiness.

Through God’s sanctifying grace, we grow and mature in our ability to live as Jesus lived. As we pray, study the Scriptures, fast, worship, and share in fellowship with other Christians, we deepen our knowledge of and love for God. As we respond with compassion to human need and work for justice in our communities, we strengthen our capacity to love neighbor. Our inner thoughts and motives, as well as our outer actions and behavior, are aligned with God’s will and testify to our union with God.

We’re to press on, with God’s help, in the path of sanctification toward perfection. By perfection, Wesley did not mean that we would not make mistakes or have weaknesses. Rather, he understood it to be a continual process of being made perfect in our love of God and each other and of removing our desire to sin.


Now, if anyone would like to discuss what Arminians actually believe, we have a topic that is not about correcting some 'bad argument' made on another post. We have the Arminian beliefs expressed by Arminians in their own words. We can discuss what they actually claim to believe rather than what they are falsely reported to believe.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Arminians teach all that?

The best source I know for Wesleyan teaching is John Wesley's forty four sermons.

I have a printed copy that I refer to when I want to know something about his views on various topics.

 

[Cassia]

There have been a lot of claims about what Arminianism teaches, and most have not been true. So the purpose of this topic is to set the record straight on what Wesslyian Arminianism actually teaches. The reason that I chose to focus on Arminianism as taught by John Wesley is because he was the founder of the Methodist Church (which gave birth to the Holiness Movement and the Evangelical and Church of God family of denominations). When the rest of Christiandom was asleep, John Wesley was used to start a fire of God to train people to live a Holy life and reach the lost as an expression of their Christian walk. For that reason, his thoughts are worth knowing and understanding, even if we disagree on certain details.

The following is from the Methodist Church and is based heavily on the teachings and writings of John Wesley. It reflects an Arminian view of salvation, often called synergism, in which God offers man the gift of Salvation and man is able to accept or refuse that gift.

Wesley and the early Methodists were particularly concerned about inviting people to experience God’s grace and to grow in their knowledge and love of God through disciplined Christian living. They placed primary emphasis on Christian living, on putting faith and love into action. This emphasis on what Wesley referred to as “practical divinity” has continued to be a hallmark of United Methodism today.

The distinctive shape of our theological heritage can be seen not only in this emphasis on Christian living, but also in Wesley’s distinctive understanding of God’s saving grace. Although Wesley shared with many other Christians a belief in salvation by grace, he combined them in a powerful way to create distinctive emphases for living the full Christian life.

Grace
Grace is central to our understanding of Christian faith and life.

Grace can be defined as the love and mercy given to us by God because God wants us to have it, not because of anything we have done to earn it. We read in the Letter to the Ephesians: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God — not the result of works, so that no one may boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Our United Methodist heritage is rooted in a deep and profound understanding of God’s grace. This incredible grace flows from God’s great love for us. Did you have to memorize John 3:16 in Sunday school when you were a child? There was a good reason. This one verse summarizes the gospel: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.” The ability to call to mind God’s love and God’s gift of Jesus Christ is a rich resource for theology and faith.”

John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement, described God’s grace as threefold:

1. prevenient grace
2. justifying grace
3. sanctifying grace

Prevenient Grace
Wesley understood grace as God’s active presence in our lives. This presence is not dependent on human actions or human response. It is a gift — a gift that is always available, but that can be refused.

God’s grace stirs up within us a desire to know God and empowers us to respond to God’s invitation to be in relationship with God. God’s grace enables us to discern differences between good and evil and makes it possible for us to choose good….

God takes the initiative in relating to humanity. We do not have to beg and plead for God’s love and grace. God actively seeks us!

Justifying Grace
Paul wrote to the church in Corinth: “In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them” (2 Corinthians 5:19). And in his letter to the Roman Christians, Paul wrote: “But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

These verses demonstrate the justifying grace of God. They point to reconciliation, pardon, and restoration. Through the work of God in Christ our sins are forgiven, and our relationship with God is restored. According to John Wesley, founder of the Methodist movement, the image of God — which has been distorted by sin — is renewed within us through Christ’s death.

Again, this dimension of God’s grace is a gift. God’s grace alone brings us into relationship with God. There are no hoops through which we have to jump in order to please God and to be loved by God. God has acted in Jesus Christ. We need only to respond in faith.

Conversion
This process of salvation involves a change in us that we call conversion. Conversion is a turning around, leaving one orientation for another. It may be sudden and dramatic, or gradual and cumulative. But in any case, it’s a new beginning. Following Jesus’ words to Nicodemus, “You must be born anew” (John 3:7 RSV), we speak of this conversion as rebirth, new life in Christ, or regeneration.

Following Paul and Luther, John Wesley called this process justification. Justification is what happens when Christians abandon all those vain attempts to justify themselves before God, to be seen as “just” in God’s eyes through religious and moral practices. It’s a time when God’s “justifying grace” is experienced and accepted, a time of pardon and forgiveness, of new peace and joy and love. Indeed, we’re justified by God’s grace through faith.

Justification is also a time of repentance — turning away from behaviors rooted in sin and toward actions that express God’s love. In this conversion we can expect to receive assurance of our present salvation through the Holy Spirit “bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God” (Romans 8:16).

Sanctifying Grace
Salvation is not a static, one-time event in our lives. It is the ongoing experience of God’s gracious presence transforming us into whom God intends us to be. John Wesley described this dimension of God’s grace as sanctification, or holiness.

Through God’s sanctifying grace, we grow and mature in our ability to live as Jesus lived. As we pray, study the Scriptures, fast, worship, and share in fellowship with other Christians, we deepen our knowledge of and love for God. As we respond with compassion to human need and work for justice in our communities, we strengthen our capacity to love neighbor. Our inner thoughts and motives, as well as our outer actions and behavior, are aligned with God’s will and testify to our union with God.

We’re to press on, with God’s help, in the path of sanctification toward perfection. By perfection, Wesley did not mean that we would not make mistakes or have weaknesses. Rather, he understood it to be a continual process of being made perfect in our love of God and each other and of removing our desire to sin.


Now, if anyone would like to discuss what Arminians actually believe, we have a topic that is not about correcting some 'bad argument' made on another post. We have the Arminian beliefs expressed by Arminians in their own words. We can discuss what they actually claim to believe rather than what they are falsely reported to believe.

That seems to lean heavily on the book of James. How would that contrast to what Calvanists believe?

 

[atpollard]

Arminians teach all that?

Sure, you know, when they aren't busy denying that "Jesus is the Savior" :nana: [that was sarcasm in case it wasn't clear.]

The best source I know for Wesleyan teaching is John Wesley's forty four sermons.
I have a printed copy that I refer to when I want to know something about his views on various topics.

So did Wesley teach anything significantly different than the modern United Methodist Church on any of those points?
I am always willing to learn more. It just rubs be seriously the wrong way when people misrepresent Calvinism to teach that you can say a quick 'sinners incantation', live a reprobate life and 'once saved always saved' or that God just created a bunch of people to go to hell because He really wants to destroy people. These misrepresentations of what I believe, make me sensitive to let OTHER people express what they believe rather than being told lies about their beliefs and asked to defend the lies. So I disagree with details of Arminianism, but I have taken the time to read their arguments and their verses and follow their thinking. So I can appreciate WHY they believe what they believe. We will just have to wait for Heaven before we see which parts they got right and which parts we Calvinists got right (and which parts nobody got right).

 

[atpollard]

That seems to lean heavily on the book of James. How would that contrast to what Calvanists believe?

Good question.

Calvinists start with a different view of the relationship between man and God. In some ways it is a tiny change, but in other ways it is profound. If you want to discuss Calvinism in depth, I can start a new topic. The short version is that Calvinism leans on Romans so all men are incapable of saying yes to God. Thus only those that God drags from the wide road and places on the narrow path can be saved.

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

"No one" means no one.
"Draws" means an irresistable pull, like hauling in fish with a net.
"I will" is a promise that God finishes what he starts.

So for a Calvinist, there is no "Previent Grace", only "Justifying Grace". God calls whom he wishes. All whom God calls will come. Those called by God to start the race, will cross the finish line (by persevering in their walk to the end of the race).

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sure, you know, when they aren't busy denying that "Jesus is the Savior" :nana: [that was sarcasm in case it wasn't clear.]



So did Wesley teach anything significantly different than the modern United Methodist Church on any of those points?
I am always willing to learn more. It just rubs be seriously the wrong way when people misrepresent Calvinism to teach that you can say a quick 'sinners incantation', live a reprobate life and 'once saved always saved' or that God just created a bunch of people to go to hell because He really wants to destroy people. These misrepresentations of what I believe, make me sensitive to let OTHER people express what they believe rather than being told lies about their beliefs and asked to defend the lies. So I disagree with details of Arminianism, but I have taken the time to read their arguments and their verses and follow their thinking. So I can appreciate WHY they believe what they believe. We will just have to wait for Heaven before we see which parts they got right and which parts we Calvinists got right (and which parts nobody got right).

The forty four sermons is about 500 pages long so I will forego an attempt to tell you what is in it. But he knew he was opposed to Calvinism and preaches at least one anti-calvinism sermon among the 44.

As for me, I am a Catholic so the dispute between Arminian and Calvinist is outside of my kin. I watch it was some interest. I also admit to getting a chuckle or two from some of the cross accusations between the two parties.

I think I am getting to be too old for the disputes people manufacture on these matters. I am inclined to state my piece and then not bother with arguments because it has all been done before and nobody ever learns (well, not nobody but almost nobody).

PS: Did you read my "honest answer" to your "honest question" in the baptism thread?

 

[Cassia]

..
Wesley understood grace as God’s active presence in our lives. This presence is not dependent on human actions or human response. It is a gift — a gift that is always available, but that can be refused.

God’s grace stirs up within us a desire to know God and empowers us to respond to God’s invitation to be in relationship with God. God’s grace enables us to discern differences between good and evil and makes it possible for us to choose good….

God takes the initiative in relating to humanity. We do not have to beg and plead for God’s love and grace. God actively seeks us!

Good question.

Calvinists start with a different view of the relationship between man and God. In some ways it is a tiny change, but in other ways it is profound. If you want to discuss Calvinism in depth, I can start a new topic. The short version is that Calvinism leans on Romans so all men are incapable of saying yes to God. Thus only those that God drags from the wide road and places on the narrow path can be saved.

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

"No one" means no one.
"Draws" means an irresistable pull, like hauling in fish with a net.
"I will" is a promise that God finishes what he starts.

So for a Calvinist, there is no "Previent Grace", only "Justifying Grace". God calls whom he wishes. All whom God calls will come. Those called by God to start the race, will cross the finish line (by persevering in their walk to the end of the race).

It would seem that the main difference is in the calling and ability to respond. Dang I have to counter that with how come Judas fell away..Jesus said He lost one that was given to Him.
Yet I agree that once someone has committed to the Lord then there is no falling way, only loss of rewards. No idea where that leaves Judas.

 

[Cassia]

Cassia (an Arminian, I think).

I have been taught Methodist (I think) in Baptist, Pentecost and Nazarene churches. I dont agree that they can lose salvation (which I think Lutherans agree with the Arminians on that point).
And I disagree with the lot of ya;ll on the next life being one of pergatory in whatever form you want to call it. Loss of rewards are what your teaching lacks. Most of my learning comes from Watchman Nee if I were to adher to anything but even at that I believe in the leading of the Holy Spirit over any manmade religion.

 

[atpollard]

I have been taught Methodist (I think) in Baptist, Pentecost and Nazarene churches. I dont agree that they can lose salvation (which I think Lutherans agree with the Arminians on that point).
And I disagree with the lot of ya;ll on the next life being one of pergatory in whatever form you want to call it. Loss of rewards are what your teaching lacks. Most of my learning comes from Watchman Nee if I were to adher to anything but even at that I believe in the leading of the Holy Spirit over any manmade religion.

The 'lose salvation' one is something that a lot of Arminians and Calvinists disagree with other Arminian and Calvinists on. The problem is that the Bible teaches both. There are verses that say that Jesus will never leave you or forsake you, and that Jesus will lose none that the Father gives him, and the Holy Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing your inheritance. There are also verses that teach that many will fall away and that warn "if you abide in me" and parables that talk about God removing the new branches if they do not bear fruit (that's us). So most Arminians (Methodists, Evangelical, Church of God) believe that you can lose your salvation since it fits in with the logic of choice, but some believe that you cannot. Most Calvinists believe that you cannot lose your salvation, since it fits with God's Soverignty, but some do not.

It is actually one of the points where the Lutheran concept of the Law and Grace makes some sense. The verses about security are to provide the comfort of Grace. The verses about being cut off or falling away are to keep us from remembering to RUN the race and TRUST the Lord.

 

[Cassia]

The 'lose salvation' one is something that a lot of Arminians and Calvinists disagree with other Arminian and Calvinists on. The problem is that the Bible teaches both. There are verses that say that Jesus will never leave you or forsake you, and that Jesus will lose none that the Father gives him, and the Holy Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing your inheritance. There are also verses that teach that many will fall away and that warn "if you abide in me" and parables that talk about God removing the new branches if they do not bear fruit (that's us). So most Arminians (Methodists, Evangelical, Church of God) believe that you can lose your salvation since it fits in with the logic of choice, but some believe that you cannot. Most Calvinists believe that you cannot lose your salvation, since it fits with God's Soverignty, but some do not.

It is actually one of the points where the Lutheran concept of the Law and Grace makes some sense. The verses about security are to provide the comfort of Grace. The verses about being cut off or falling away are to keep us from remembering to RUN the race and TRUST the Lord.

It doesn,t say falling away afaik while I think it's there for more than a reminder. Cutting off is the same as pruning so actually doesn't relate to salvation.

 

[Cassia]

Not that I want to get into a discussion of salvation but as I mentioned in another thread when Arminians were first mentioned that the verses of Hebrew 6 on falling away is of those who are already Christians falling back to Judaism (law) which imo is exemplified in Peter returning to the ways set forth by those who were the company of James. Or something along those lines.

 

[Cassia]

The endless Arminianism VS. Calvinism war seems to be a debate of words based on two opposing LOGICAL arguments. The war of words has been going on for over 400 years. I don't know why our resident Calvinist brings up Arminianism but ....

Lutherans (and most Christians) stay out of these opposite LOGICAL arguments that waged endlessly between these two opposite warring camps of human logic...

Lutherans are monergists (those believing that Jesus is the Savior - Jesus does the saving in the sense of narrow justification) but we leave the HOW entirely to mystery and do not argue that God is mandated to perform His gracious, life-giving MIRACLES according to OUR "logic" and OUR "theories", OUR understandings of science and OUR sense of what He can and cannot do, how He must and must not do it, what is and is not acceptable for Him to do. MIRACLES almost by definition are incomprehensible. It's enough for most (all Lutherans) to boldly proclaim: He does it. By grace. SOLI DEO GLORIA! Praise GOD from whom ALL blessings flow. Lift High the Cross, not my mirror.


- Josiah



.

Welcome and greetings.

One small observation. I am a Calvinist (guilty as charged) so I also believe in Monergism. I posted the Methodist view of Arminianism for discussion. MoreCoffee, a Roman Catholic, responded. Cassia (an Arminian, I think) asked a question about how Calvinism would differ. I attempted to briefly answer about Calvinism. Now I leave it for you to pass your own judgement, but a Calvinist, a Catholic and an Arminian are discussing Wesleyan Arminianism and Calvinism without any argument, debate or fighting.

It is YOUR post that enters the discussion denouncing wars and arguments waged endlessly and then sets out to prove your point by explaining how both Calvinism and Arminianism are wrong and human LOGIC and both are human-centric rather than Lutheranism - the only true God Centered Religion (or so it would seem from your rhetoric).

Would it be possible to state the positions and claims of Lutherans without accusing everyone else of carnal Christianity and worshiping man?

At the very least, could you quote the exact part of the OP that casts Christ from his throne and erects SELF in His place?
I have to tell you, that is not what I see in that text.

Demoninational discussions are best left to each there own to explain so I have no vested interest in Lutheranism, Calvanism, Catholicism, or Arminianism (I am not guilty as charged)

But what I find the argument centering around is elect only, predestined and to hell with everyone else. I object to that teaching because
there are many different reactions to the Word of God that has been sown into the world. Some people's hearts are hard and reject God on all counts, from what is known of Him thru nature or onto moral degratation that opposes the sovergnty of God. Other have growth but lack rooting to uphold them. Still others are unfruitfull because the cares of the world have choked them off.

What can those who see themselves in those descriptions do to right themselves? Nothing.

But with God all things are possible. He can break up the unfurrowed ground, uproot the rocks and remove the thorns. That is where the Hope of God lies.

Ezekiel 36:25-27
I will sprinkle you with clean water, and you will be clean and acceptable to me. I will wash away everything that makes you unclean, and I will remove your disgusting idols. 26 I will take away your stubborn heart and give you a new heart and a desire to be faithful. You will have only pure thoughts, 27 because I will put my Spirit in you and make you eager to obey my laws and teachings.

 

[Lamb]

Staff Notice:

A small clean up was done in case you notice some posts missing.

 

[Cassia]

Staff Notice:

A small clean up was done in case you notice some posts missing.

Why would the two posts that I quoted in my last reply be removed when they were very much a part of the conversation?

 

[atpollard]

Why would the two posts that I quoted in my last reply be removed when they were very much a part of the conversation?

That was my fault. I requested both be removed because Josiah didn't want to talk about what Arminianism teaches and I didn't want another thread on what Lutherans believe about Arminianism (without actually discussing Arminian beliefs).

I just didn't want you to think that that was Lammchen's 'fault' they were removed.

 

[Cassia]

That was my fault. I requested both be removed because Josiah didn't want to talk about what Arminianism teaches and I didn't want another thread on what Lutherans believe about Arminianism (without actually discussing Arminian beliefs).

I just didn't want you to think that that was Laamchen's 'fault' they were removed.

oh ok.np It didn't make sense otherwise.