Verses on Baptism

[MennoSota]

Here are the verses on baptism. Note the common thread of belief and confession before baptism.

The people confess, then are baptized.

Matthew 3:6
And when they confessed their sins, he baptized them in the Jordan River.

Believe...then baptize.

Mark 16:16
Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned.

Repent, turn to God, then be baptized.
Those who believed were baptized.

Acts 2:38-39,41
Peter replied, “Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
This promise is to you, to your children, and to those far away—all who have been called by the Lord our God.”
Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church that day—about 3,000 in all.

They believed, then they were baptized.

Acts 8:12
But now the people believed Philip’s message of Good News concerning the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ. As a result, many men and women were baptized.

The eunich believed, then was baptized.

Acts 8:29-31,35-36,38
The Holy Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and walk along beside the carriage.”
Philip ran over and heard the man reading from the prophet Isaiah. Philip asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
The man replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” And he urged Philip to come up into the carriage and sit with him.

So beginning with this same Scripture, Philip told him the Good News about Jesus.
As they rode along, they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “Look! There’s some water! Why can’t I be baptized?”
He ordered the carriage to stop, and they went down into the water, and Philip baptized him.

Paul was preached to. He was told that God had chosen Paul. He was called "brother" and then Paul was baptized.

Acts 9:17-18
So Ananias went and found Saul. He laid his hands on him and said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road, has sent me so that you might regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
Instantly something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he got up and was baptized.

The Spirit fell on Cornelius and the men, then they were baptized.

Acts 10:44,47-48
Even as Peter was saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the message.
“Can anyone object to their being baptized, now that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we did?”
So he gave orders for them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Afterward Cornelius asked him to stay with them for several days.

The gospel was preached, people believed then they were baptized.

Acts 11:14-17
He will tell you how you and everyone in your household can be saved!’
“As I began to speak,” Peter continued, “the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as he fell on us at the beginning.
Then I thought of the Lord’s words when he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
And since God gave these Gentiles the same gift he gave us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to stand in God’s way?”

Repent, then be baptized.

Acts 13:24
Before he came, John the Baptist preached that all the people of Israel needed to repent of their sins and turn to God and be baptized.

Lydia believed, along with her household, and then they were baptized.

Acts 16:14-15
One of them was Lydia from Thyatira, a merchant of expensive purple cloth, who worshiped God. As she listened to us, the Lord opened her heart, and she accepted what Paul was saying.
She and her household were baptized, and she asked us to be her guests. “If you agree that I am a true believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my home.” And she urged us until we agreed.

The jailer believed along with the household and then they were baptized.

Acts 16:29-34
The jailer called for lights and ran to the dungeon and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas.
Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with everyone in your household.”
And they shared the word of the Lord with him and with all who lived in his household.
Even at that hour of the night, the jailer cared for them and washed their wounds. Then he and everyone in his household were immediately baptized.
He brought them into his house and set a meal before them, and he and his entire household rejoiced because they all believed in God.

Crispus and everyone in the household believes, then they were baptized.

Acts 18:8
Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, and everyone in his household believed in the Lord. Many others in Corinth also heard Paul, became believers, and were baptized.

John's baptism (showing there is more than one type of baptism) was not about believing. Here the disciples believe in Jesus, then they are baptized as believers in Jesus.

Acts 19:3-5
“Then what baptism did you experience?” he asked.And they replied, “The baptism of John.”
Paul said, “John’s baptism called for repentance from sin. But John himself told the people to believe in the one who would come later, meaning Jesus.”
As soon as they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

A repeat of Paul believing, then being baptized.

Acts 22:12-16
A man named Ananias lived there. He was a godly man, deeply devoted to the law, and well regarded by all the Jews of Damascus.
He came and stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, regain your sight.’ And that very moment I could see him!
“Then he told me, ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and hear him speak.
For you are to be his witness, telling everyone what you have seen and heard.
What are you waiting for? Get up and be baptized. Have your sins washed away by calling on the name of the Lord.’

Paul only baptized believers. He actually doesn't lift up water baptism as being of any significant importance in salvation. He says Christ didn't send him to baptize. Christ sent him to preach the gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:13-17
Has Christ been divided into factions? Was I, Paul, crucified for you? Were any of you baptized in the name of Paul? Of course not!
I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
for now no one can say they were baptized in my name.
(Oh yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas, but I don’t remember baptizing anyone else.)
For Christ didn’t send me to baptize, but to preach the Good News—and not with clever speech, for fear that the cross of Christ would lose its power.

Here Paul expresses that baptism is useless if the dead are not resurrected. It is because Christ arose that we are baptized.

1 Corinthians 15:27-30
For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.” (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.)
Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.
If the dead will not be raised, what point is there in people being baptized for those who are dead? Why do it unless the dead will someday rise again?
And why should we ourselves risk our lives hour by hour?

People are unified with Christ, buried with Christ and then made alive with Christ, which is what water baptism symbolizes.

Colossians 2:10-14
So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.
When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature.
For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.
You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.
He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross.

So there is my explanation of the verses. I think they clearly reveal believers baptism as my church provides. I see no non-believers being baptized. I see no faith or the Holy Spirit being given to non-believers. I see no use of baptism as a form of evangelism in hopes that baptism might give a person faith and the Holy Spirit.

Now, will anyone look at these same verses and explain how God ordains baptism to be given to anyone without discernment? We shall see.

 

[Josiah]

The people confess, then are baptized.

OLD TESTAMENT baptism...

The words "believe" and "before" never appear in the text. YOU PUT them there; your teaching is based wholly on words NOT IN THE TEXT, but words you invisibly put there.

It's an historic example; such is not normative. He was baptized in the Jordan River, does that mean all baptisms NOT in the Jordan are invalid? He was baptized by a Jewish Prophet, does that mean that all baptisms not administered by a Jewish Prophet are invalid? He was baptized at the age of 30, does that prove all baptisms done at any other age are invalid? How silly. How absurd.

Believe...then baptize.

The word is "and". You simply deleted the word the Holy Spirit put in the text and replaced it with an entirely different one NOT in the text (or in ANY verse where the word 'BAPTISM' appears).

Your entire teaching is based on DELETING the word in the text and SUBSTITUTING a different one of your choice.

Repent, turn to God, then be baptized.

The verse only identifies the JEWISH baptism that John was doing; it was called "The Baptism of Repentance for the Forgiveness of Sins." One of the Jewish baptisms.

The word "then" never appears in this text about JEWISH baptism.

Your whole teaching depends on inserting a word that is not there; it doesn't appear in ANY Scripture where the word "baptism" also appears or in any context remotely about Baptism.

Those who believed were baptized.

The verse says the promise is "for your children."

It's an EXAMPLE. It doesn't say, "as required, FIRST they adequately and publicly proved they had already chosen Jesus as their personal savior." It only says that in this particular case, they were believers. Your doctrine is based on something the verse never remotely says. IF you held that we can ONLY do as is exampled, you've have a (silly) point - but you don't (as you prove when you post on the internet, when you baptize in a tank, when you have Gentiles doing the baptism, etc., etc., etc.)




Acts 16:15 and Acts 16:33 Neither shows that all in the household FIRST had publicly and adequately proven that they had chosen Jesus as their personal Savior. They MAY have but NOTHING in the text remotely so indicates. So you cannot even show that every baptism that just happens to be recorded in the Bible was of those who FIRST publicly and adequately proved they had chosen Jesus as their personal Savior. And since you don't give a rip about what is and is not exampled in the Bible, you have no credibility in insisting we are limited to SOME examples of stuff done in the Bible.

 

[Josiah]

You left out a lot of Scriptures....


Acts 22:16

Acts 2:38

1 Peter 3:21

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 6:11

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:26-27

Ephesians 5:25-27

Colossians 2:11-12

Titus 3:5

1 Peter 3:18-22

John 3:5

Acts 2:38

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:27

Colossians 2:11-12


.... and many, many more. I wonder why?



Unlike you, I won't ignore the words God put in the text, nor delete actual words I don't like and insert invisible words I require - words on which your ENTIRE teaching depends. I'm good with the words ACTUALLY THERE. No need to spin them (to make them "mean" the opposite of what they state). None deleted, none substituted as you did with all yours; and no silly rule that we can only do as SOMETIMES exampled in the Bible (which is why I can post on the internet).





It's interesting too that not one person (even a non-Christian or a heretic) held to your view of Baptism for over 1500 years. The following Christians all show a very different view:


The Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 130) “This means that we go down into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up bearing fruit in our hearts, fear and hope in Jesus and in the Spirit.”

The Shepherd of Hermas (A.D. 140?): "they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.”

St. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160?) "And we, who have approached God through Him, have received not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism, since we were sinners, by God’s mercy; and all men may equally obtain it."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?). "And when we come to refute them [i.e. those heretics], we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?) "“Now, this is what faith does for us, as the elders, the disciples of the apostles, have handed down to us. First of all, it admonishes us to remember that we have received baptism for the remission of sins in the name of God the Father, and in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became incarnate and died and raised."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "The same also takes place in our case, whose exemplar Christ became. Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated, we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "For it is said, “Put on him the best robe,” which was his the moment he obtained baptism. I mean the glory of baptism, the remission of sins, and the communication of the other blessings, which he obtained immediately he had touched the font."

St. Cyprian (A.D. 255) responding to a man who was asking him the specific question of whether or not the pouring of water in baptism would be valid: "You have asked also, dearest son, what I thought about those who obtain the grace of God while they are weakened by illness – whether or not they are to be reckoned as legitimate Christians who have not been bathed with the saving water, but have had it poured over them."




But in every thread on Baptism (and there have been several here at CH), y0u have always completely IGNORED the words of Scripture and the universal witness of Christians. You instead insist on deleting the words in Scripture and inserting invisible ones on which your ENTIRE view wholly depends, and completely ignoring everything and anything except the Anabaptist Tradition on this, that denominational tradition, which you parrot perfectly but never even try to substantiate. Now you've created ANOTHER one, to AGAIN prove - you have nothing, all you do is delete words in Scripture (such as "and") and insert invisilble ones (such as "required" "then" "after" "symbolize" "not" "no" etc.). In how many threads must you prove that? WHY would you want to prove that? I'm embarrassed for you. I once thought you MIGHT just stop and think and realize what you are doing but nope. I think we're tired of it.









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.

 

[MennoSota]

OLD TESTAMENT baptism...

The words "believe" and "before" never appear in the text. YOU PUT them there; your teaching is based wholly on words NOT IN THE TEXT, but words you invisibly put there.

It's an historic example; such is not normative. He was baptized in the Jordan River, does that mean all baptisms NOT in the Jordan are invalid? He was baptized by a Jewish Prophet, does that mean that all baptisms not administered by a Jewish Prophet are invalid? He was baptized at the age of 30, does that prove all baptisms done at any other age are invalid? How silly. How absurd.






The word is "and". You simply deleted the word the Holy Spirit put in the text and replaced it with an entirely different one NOT in the text (or in ANY verse where the word 'BAPTISM' appears).

Your entire teaching is based on DELETING the word in the text and SUBSTITUTING a different one of your choice.






The verse only identifies the JEWISH baptism that John was doing; it was called "The Baptism of Repentance for the Forgiveness of Sins." One of the Jewish baptisms.

The word "then" never appears in this text about JEWISH baptism.

Your whole teaching depends on inserting a word that is not there; it doesn't appear in ANY Scripture where the word "baptism" also appears or in any context remotely about Baptism.





The verse says the promise is "for your children."

It's an EXAMPLE. It doesn't say, "as required, FIRST they adequately and publicly proved they had already chosen Jesus as their personal savior." It only says that in this particular case, they were believers. Your doctrine is based on something the verse never remotely says. IF you held that we can ONLY do as is exampled, you've have a (silly) point - but you don't (as you prove when you post on the internet, when you baptize in a tank, when you have Gentiles doing the baptism, etc., etc., etc.)




Acts 16:15 and Acts 16:33 Neither shows that all in the household FIRST had publicly and adequately proven that they had chosen Jesus as their personal Savior. They MAY have but NOTHING in the text remotely so indicates. So you cannot even show that every baptism that just happens to be recorded in the Bible was of those who FIRST publicly and adequately proved they had chosen Jesus as their personal Savior. And since you don't give a rip about what is and is not exampled in the Bible, you have no credibility in insisting we are limited to SOME examples of stuff done in the Bible.

Share your verses on baptism and explain them in light of your position. I'm not looking for anything else.

 

[MennoSota]

You left out a lot of Scriptures....


Acts 22:16

Acts 2:38

1 Peter 3:21

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 6:11

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:26-27

Ephesians 5:25-27

Colossians 2:11-12

Titus 3:5

1 Peter 3:18-22

John 3:5

Acts 2:38

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:27

Colossians 2:11-12


.... and many, many more. I wonder why?



Unlike you, I won't ignore the words God put in the text, nor delete actual words I don't like and insert invisible words I require - words on which your ENTIRE teaching depends. I'm good with the words ACTUALLY THERE. No need to spin them (to make them "mean" the opposite of what they state). None deleted, none substituted as you did with all yours; and no silly rule that we can only do as SOMETIMES exampled in the Bible (which is why I can post on the internet).





It's interesting too that not one person (even a non-Christian or a heretic) held to your view of Baptism for over 1500 years. The following Christians all show a very different view:


The Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 130) “This means that we go down into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up bearing fruit in our hearts, fear and hope in Jesus and in the Spirit.”

The Shepherd of Hermas (A.D. 140?): "they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.”

St. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160?) "And we, who have approached God through Him, have received not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism, since we were sinners, by God’s mercy; and all men may equally obtain it."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?). "And when we come to refute them [i.e. those heretics], we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?) "“Now, this is what faith does for us, as the elders, the disciples of the apostles, have handed down to us. First of all, it admonishes us to remember that we have received baptism for the remission of sins in the name of God the Father, and in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became incarnate and died and raised."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "The same also takes place in our case, whose exemplar Christ became. Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated, we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "For it is said, “Put on him the best robe,” which was his the moment he obtained baptism. I mean the glory of baptism, the remission of sins, and the communication of the other blessings, which he obtained immediately he had touched the font."

St. Cyprian (A.D. 255) responding to a man who was asking him the specific question of whether or not the pouring of water in baptism would be valid: "You have asked also, dearest son, what I thought about those who obtain the grace of God while they are weakened by illness – whether or not they are to be reckoned as legitimate Christians who have not been bathed with the saving water, but have had it poured over them."




But in every thread on Baptism (and there have been several here at CH), y0u have always completely IGNORED the words of Scripture and the universal witness of Christians. You instead insist on deleting the words in Scripture and inserting invisible ones on which your ENTIRE view wholly depends, and completely ignoring everything and anything except the Anabaptist Tradition on this, that denominational tradition, which you parrot perfectly but never even try to substantiate. Now you've created ANOTHER one, to AGAIN prove - you have nothing, all you do is delete words in Scripture (such as "and") and insert invisilble ones (such as "required" "then" "after" "symbolize" "not" "no" etc.). In how many threads must you prove that? WHY would you want to prove that? I'm embarrassed for you. I once thought you MIGHT just stop and think and realize what you are doing but nope. I think we're tired of it.









.

.

Explain all those verse citations in light of your position please.

 

[MennoSota]

Since Josiah won't address the verses, I will do the work he chooses not to do. It will be noted that his verses do not support his position on baptism

Supports believers baptism.
Acts 22:14-16
And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’


Supports believers baptism.
Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Promotes believers baptism. Christ brings us to God, then we are baptized.
1 Peter 3:18-22 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Holy Spirit immerses us into Christ. Water not stated.
Romans 6:3-4
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Not about baptism.
Corinthians 6:9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Water not involved.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Belief(faith) then baptism. In this passage it's not water baptism.
Galatians 3:23-29 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

Baptism not mentioned.
Ephesians 5:22-30 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.

Symbolism of water baptism, with the Spirit's baptism being effective.
Colossians 2:9-14 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.


Titus has nothing to do with water baptism.
Titus 3:4-7 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Peter goes out of his way to say water baptism doesn't save and thus clear up any misconceptions.
1 Peter 3:18-22 For Christ also sufferedonce for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Has nothing to do with baptism.
John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Already addressed. You double cited.
Acts 2:38

Already addressed. You double cited.
Romans 6:3-4
Already addressed.
1 Corinthians 12:13
Already addressed
Galatians 3:27
Already addressed. You double cited.
Colossians 2:11-12

 

[Josiah]

Acts 22:14-16
And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Does not support that baptism is an inert, ineffectual ritual... "worthless" and "does nothing" to quote you... does not support, "it is only an outward SYMBOL of a previous personal, inner accomplishment." Taken with MANY other Scriptures, it suggests quite the opposite.

Says NOTHING about it being required that baptism be limited to those over the age of X, that it can only be administered by submersing the person entirely under water, and FIRST one must publicly and adequately prove that they had previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior.

Read the words.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Does not support that baptism is an inert, ineffectual ritual... "worthless" and "does nothing" to quote you... does not support, "it is only an outward SYMBOL of a previous personal, inner accomplishment." Taken with MANY other Scriptures, it suggests quite the opposite.

Says NOTHING about it being required that baptism be limited to those over the age of X, that it can only be administered by submersing the person entirely under water, and FIRST one must publicly and adequately prove that they had previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior.

Read the words of the verse.

1 Peter 3:18-22 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Does not support that baptism is an inert, ineffectual ritual... "worthless" and "does nothing" to quote you... does not support, "it is only an outward SYMBOL of a previous personal, inner accomplishment." Taken with MANY other Scriptures, it suggests quite the opposite.

Says NOTHING about it being required that baptism be limited to those over the age of X, that it can only be administered by submersing the person entirely under water, and FIRST one must publicly and adequately prove that they had previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior.

Read the words. Believe, do not deny.

Romans 6:3-4
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Does not support that baptism is an inert, ineffectual ritual... "worthless" and "does nothing" to quote you... does not support, "it is only an outward SYMBOL of a previous personal, inner accomplishment." Taken with MANY other Scriptures, it suggests quite the opposite.

Says NOTHING about it being required that baptism be limited to those over the age of X, that it can only be administered by submersing the person entirely under water, and FIRST one must publicly and adequately prove that they had previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior.

Read the words.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Does not support that baptism is an inert, ineffectual ritual... "worthless" and "does nothing" to quote you... does not support, "it is only an outward SYMBOL of a previous personal, inner accomplishment." Taken with MANY other Scriptures, it suggests quite the opposite.

Says NOTHING about it being required that baptism be limited to those over the age of X, that it can only be administered by submersing the person entirely under water, and FIRST one must publicly and adequately prove that they had previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior.

Read the words. And believe.

Galatians 3:23-29 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

Does not support that baptism is an inert, ineffectual ritual... "worthless" and "does nothing" to quote you... does not support, "it is only an outward SYMBOL of a previous personal, inner accomplishment." Taken with MANY other Scriptures, it suggests quite the opposite.

Says NOTHING about it being required that baptism be limited to those over the age of X, that it can only be administered by submersing the person entirely under water, and FIRST one must publicly and adequately prove that they had previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior. Not there.

Read the words.

Ephesians 5:22-30 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.

Does not support that baptism is an inert, ineffectual ritual... "worthless" and "does nothing" to quote you... does not support, "it is only an outward SYMBOL of a personal, inner accomplishment." Taken with MANY other Scriptures, it suggests quite the opposite.

Says NOTHING about it being required that baptism be limited to those over the age of X, that it can only be administered by submersing the person entirely under water, and FIRST one must publicly and adequately prove that they had previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior.

Read the words! If you do, the blessings of Baptism are proclaimed.


Continues in next post...


.

 

[Josiah]

continuing from above...

Colossians 2:9-14 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Does not support that baptism is an inert, ineffectual ritual... "worthless" and "does nothing" to quote you... does not support, "it is only an outward SYMBOL of a previous personal, inner accomplishment."

Taken with MANY other Scriptures, it suggests quite the opposite.

Says NOTHING about it being required that baptism be limited to those over the age of X, that it can only be administered by submersing the person entirely under water, and FIRST one must publicly and adequately prove that they had previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior.

Read the words... and believe.

1 Peter 3:18-22 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Does not support that baptism is an inert, ineffectual ritual... "worthless" and "does nothing" ... it does not support, "it is only an outward SYMBOL of a personal, inner accomplishment."

Taken with MANY other Scriptures, it suggests quite the opposite.

Says NOTHING about it being required that baptism be limited to those over the age of X, that it can only be administered by submersing the person entirely under water, and FIRST one must publicly and adequately prove that they had previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior.

Read the words.



John 3:5-6

Acts 2:38

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:27

Colossians 2:11-12



Here are the Anabaptist/Baptist Dogma on baptism, all invented in the late 16th Century by a few radical synergistic Anabaptists - who never claimed ANY of it was taught in Scripture but rather invented the new dogmas so as to "fit" with their synergism.

Anti-Paedobaptism: It is forbidden to baptize any under the (never disclosed) age of X. You[ve not presented ONE Scripture or the voice of even one person teaching this (prior to that synergistic Anabaptist).

Credobaptism: it is forbidden to baptize any unless they have adequately, publicly and previously proven that they have chosen Jesus as their personal Savior. You've not presented ONE Scripture or the voice of even ONE person teaching this prior to that radical synergist in the late 16th Century.

Immersion - Only Baptism: That it is forbidden to baptize any unless every part of their body is entirely covered and submerged by water. You have not presented even ONE Scripture or even ONE voice of anyone prior to that radical synergist that teaches this.

Baptism is Only a SYMBOL of a Previous Personal Inner Accomplishment: You've not presented even ONE Scripture that remotely says that and not one voice of anyone who thought that prior to that synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century.


You echo and parrot these Anabaptist traditions perfectly (and ENDLESSLY, OMG, ENDLESSLY) but you document every time you have nothing to show any of it has an ounce of truth to it. Indeed, the apologetics you offer are things you yourself reject!


We've been through all this.... in MANY threads.... you have had ENDLESS opportunities to support the Anabaptist Tradition you parrot constantly on all of these. You've had NOTHING. Why you want to prove that AGAIN in yet ANOTHER thread, I just don't know. We know what you believe.... and we've taken your ridicule and condemnations... and ASKED you for some evidence, and you persistently, constantly, always refuse. Okay. Alright already!

I encourage you to talk to the Staff here. Go to member services and ask for a discussion with them on this.


I have given you Scriptures and quotes that suggest traditional, orthodox views. I've kept it honest and clean. I've TRIED (Heaven knows I've TRIED, to absurd and frankly unreasonable lengths) to discuss our position and the Anabaptist position, with honesty. But it's not possible with you. Too bad. I kept HOPING you'd shake off your tradition and be honest but....

I DO understand the Anabaptist perspective here (there are good and honest baptist apologetists around the 'net)... and from a synergistic perspective, there's a certain "logic." AND I appreciate those Baptists who simply admit, "it SEEMS this is how the First Century (if not Second Century and afterward) church saw this.... it SEEMS appropriate.... we CHOOSE to do things this way, but don't declare others to be wrong." And many Baptist take that stand. I can respect that. I have no idea where you are getting your apologetics, but you need to go elsewhere. Again, talk with the Staff. They are good people.





.

 

[MennoSota]

Does not support that baptism is an inert, ineffectual ritual... "worthless" and "does nothing" to quote you... does not support, "it is only an outward SYMBOL of a previous personal, inner accomplishment." Taken with MANY other Scriptures, it suggests quite the opposite.

Says NOTHING about it being required that baptism be limited to those over the age of X, that it can only be administered by submersing the person entirely under water, and FIRST one must publicly and adequately prove that they had previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior.

Read the words.







Does not support that baptism is an inert, ineffectual ritual... "worthless" and "does nothing" to quote you... does not support, "it is only an outward SYMBOL of a previous personal, inner accomplishment." Taken with MANY other Scriptures, it suggests quite the opposite.

Says NOTHING about it being required that baptism be limited to those over the age of X, that it can only be administered by submersing the person entirely under water, and FIRST one must publicly and adequately prove that they had previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior.

Read the words of the verse.





Does not support that baptism is an inert, ineffectual ritual... "worthless" and "does nothing" to quote you... does not support, "it is only an outward SYMBOL of a previous personal, inner accomplishment." Taken with MANY other Scriptures, it suggests quite the opposite.

Says NOTHING about it being required that baptism be limited to those over the age of X, that it can only be administered by submersing the person entirely under water, and FIRST one must publicly and adequately prove that they had previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior.

Read the words. Believe, do not deny.







Does not support that baptism is an inert, ineffectual ritual... "worthless" and "does nothing" to quote you... does not support, "it is only an outward SYMBOL of a previous personal, inner accomplishment." Taken with MANY other Scriptures, it suggests quite the opposite.

Says NOTHING about it being required that baptism be limited to those over the age of X, that it can only be administered by submersing the person entirely under water, and FIRST one must publicly and adequately prove that they had previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior.

Read the words.






Does not support that baptism is an inert, ineffectual ritual... "worthless" and "does nothing" to quote you... does not support, "it is only an outward SYMBOL of a previous personal, inner accomplishment." Taken with MANY other Scriptures, it suggests quite the opposite.

Says NOTHING about it being required that baptism be limited to those over the age of X, that it can only be administered by submersing the person entirely under water, and FIRST one must publicly and adequately prove that they had previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior.

Read the words. And believe.






Does not support that baptism is an inert, ineffectual ritual... "worthless" and "does nothing" to quote you... does not support, "it is only an outward SYMBOL of a previous personal, inner accomplishment." Taken with MANY other Scriptures, it suggests quite the opposite.

Says NOTHING about it being required that baptism be limited to those over the age of X, that it can only be administered by submersing the person entirely under water, and FIRST one must publicly and adequately prove that they had previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior. Not there.

Read the words.





Does not support that baptism is an inert, ineffectual ritual... "worthless" and "does nothing" to quote you... does not support, "it is only an outward SYMBOL of a personal, inner accomplishment." Taken with MANY other Scriptures, it suggests quite the opposite.

Says NOTHING about it being required that baptism be limited to those over the age of X, that it can only be administered by submersing the person entirely under water, and FIRST one must publicly and adequately prove that they had previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior.

Read the words! If you do, the blessings of Baptism are proclaimed.


Continues in next post...


.

Your making up an argument that I don't claim. Plus, this thread is for the verses. Explain what the verses teach, not the imaginary things you have been railing about.

 

[MennoSota]

I may be the only person who is actually reading the verses and talking about what they actually are saying. It is because I value what the Bible says and not what a church tradition says that I started this thread.
No rants about traditions, just look at the scripture and what it expresses regarding baptism.

 

[Josiah]

I may be the only person who is actually reading the verses and talking about what they actually are saying

No, my friend.

PERSISTENTLY, you delete words (such as "and") that are THERE and insert words (such as 'after that" and "required") that are NOT there. It's why you INSIST that that all Scriptures be ran through some spin cycle, because you REFUSE to deal with the words on the page. You so powerfully rebuke when you THINK Catholics are doing this and yet you do it FAR, FAR more radically and often.

It is because I value what the Bible says and not what a church tradition says that I started this thread.

That is your mantra, but you do the opposite. You refuse to accept the words in the Bible - INSISTING on deleting words you don't like and inserting words you need. AND all you do - friend, ALL YOU DO, is parrot (albeit perfectly) Anabaptist Tradition on the topic of Baptism. I think everyone sees it but you. Again, you ridicule when you claim Catholics are doing that but refuse to see how you do it FAR, FAR more than they. You NEED to take a step back.... in honesty.

just look at the scripture and what it expresses regarding baptism.

Since you came here, many of us have welcomed you to do that. YOU WILL NOT. When Scripture is shared, you just spin it (often wildly) or simply ignore the words. And when we ask you to support (IN THE WAY YOU INSIST) what you say, you never will. All we get is perfect parroting of Anabaptist Tradition and a bunch of _______ YOU YOURSELF reject (such as your "we can't do anything unless it's what was always done in the Bible"). Your rubric is fine (if a bit impractical) but YOU are the one who NEVER does it. Not on this topic. Friend, IF (I realize what a big word that is) IF you'd actually step back.... be honest.... THINK.... it would be as obvious to you as it is to everyone else. And you just keep doing it to yourself.... over and over. It not only contributes NOTHING to the discussion or site, frankly, I'm embarrassed for you. You NEED someone to help you on this - a spouse, friend, relative, fellow church member.... perhaps a staff person here. Because it's just ABSURD to insist we accept what the Bible says when you REFUSE, always changing what it says because you think it MEANS something else (your perpectual, uber-high speed SPIN).... it's absurd to argue "No Tradition" when ALL YOU DO is perfectly parrot Anabaptist Tradition. IF you want to ignore Tradition, how about YOU doing it and NO MORE "Anabaptist understanding." IF you want to stick to what Scripture SAYS, then stop telling us what it SHOULD say, stop deleting words you don't like and substituting ones you need. Jesus' log/speck thing sure applies.


I like your monergism.... you often are very sound and have a sharp mind. But on THIS topic, well.... everyone knows.


It's WORTHLESS to discuss this with you, as long as you demand the very thing you refuse to do... It's too bad. These are topics worth discussing, but you seem entirely caught in your own spin cycle. Of course you think I'm wrong... so ask others. But frankly, after all these threads, I have no hope you'll change.... and thus no hope for any meaningful discussion. And you have so soured this topic that no other Baptist here wants a thing to do with the topic. Too bad. I'm had good discussions on these issues, just not with you.





.

 

[MennoSota]

Josiah, if you will not discuss the verses, please stop posting here.
If you desire to discuss particular verses pertaining to baptism, please do.

 

[Michael]

I believe we will find in the Scripture that baptism is a vital, necessary part of our Journey, and means far more than just an outward act symbolizing our acceptance of Christ (which I used to teach before my eyes were opened to the Truth).

I touched on the subject of baptism in an extensive Bible Study I've been teaching from 1Corinthians 10, as Paul speaks of Israel being baptized in the Exodus and how that correlates to our journey toward the promises of God.
For any interested, that segment on Baptism can be found here -

http://to-him-who-overcomes.com/entries/1corinthians-10-study/1corinthians-10-part-5--baptism

Peace & Blessings to all who walk with Jesus,
Michael

 

[MennoSota]

I believe we will find in the Scripture that baptism is a vital, necessary part of our Journey, and means far more than just an outward act symbolizing our acceptance of Christ (which I used to teach before my eyes were opened to the Truth).

I touched on the subject of baptism in an extensive Bible Study I've been teaching from 1Corinthians 10, as Paul speaks of Israel being baptized in the Exodus and how that correlates to our journey toward the promises of God.
For any interested, that segment on Baptism can be found here -

http://to-him-who-overcomes.com/entries/1corinthians-10-study/1corinthians-10-part-5--baptism

Peace & Blessings to all who walk with Jesus,
Michael

Thanks Michael. Present your case from scripture here please.

 

[Michael]

Thanks Michael. Present your case from scripture here please.

Hey brother, I would love to, maybe I can in parts... this site only allows so many pages at one time, and this portion of the Study is about 8 pages long! And this is part 5 of the study on our Journey.
I'll see what I can do later... Will have to modify it a little for this format.
Peace & Blessings to you!

 

[MennoSota]

Hey brother, I would love to, maybe I can in parts... this site only allows so many pages at one time, and this portion of the Study is about 8 pages long! And this is part 5 of the study on our Journey.
I'll see what I can do later... Will have to modify it a little for this format.
Peace & Blessings to you!

Just share a verse on baptism and how that verse fits your perspective on what baptism effects in the human condition.
There is no need for a tome. I won't read it anyways. If I wanted to do full research I'd go to someone I knew was an expert and respected in the field. I wouldn't go to YouTube or a random website.
Sorry if that offends you and your blog posts. I am simply being honest.

 

[psalms 91]

Go ahead and post Michael, I think it could be very enlightening

 

[Michael]

Just share a verse on baptism and how that verse fits your perspective on what baptism effects in the human condition.
There is no need for a tome. I won't read it anyways. If I wanted to do full research I'd go to someone I knew was an expert and respected in the field. I wouldn't go to YouTube or a random website.
Sorry if that offends you and your blog posts. I am simply being honest.

No offense taken. But the way God has had me teaching the last 15 years is through longer essay's, video's and the extensive Bible Studies I do at the churches I'm involved with.
Sorry, but to grasp the full understanding, I can't simple throw some verses at you. Just being honest. I must teach as God directs!

 

[Andrew]

Just share a verse on baptism and how that verse fits your perspective on what baptism effects in the human condition.
There is no need for a tome. I won't read it anyways. If I wanted to do full research I'd go to someone I knew was an expert and respected in the field. I wouldn't go to YouTube or a random website.
Sorry if that offends you and your blog posts. I am simply being honest.

Perhaps you could skim through it and see if anything catches your interest

 

[MennoSota]

No offense taken. But the way God has had me teaching the last 15 years is through longer essay's, video's and the extensive Bible Studies I do at the churches I'm involved with.
Sorry, but to grasp the full understanding, I can't simple throw some verses at you. Just being honest. I must teach as God directs!

Best practice with videos is to keep them 5 minutes or less. Most people won't even listen if they see longer posts. You'll miss out on the vast majority of people casting a net on the internet or YouTube.
Perhaps God should direct you to be more succinct.