Tobit 12:6-10

[atpollard]

Tobit 12:6-10 (RSV)

6 Then the angel [“he”] called the two of them privately and said to them: “Praise God and give thanks to him; exalt him and give thanks to him in the presence of all the living for what he has done for you. It is good to praise God and to exalt his name, worthily declaring the works of God. Do not be slow to give him thanks. 7 It is good to guard the secret of a king, but gloriously to reveal the works of God. Do good, and evil will not overtake you. 8 Prayer is good when accompanied by fasting, almsgiving, and righteousness. A little with righteousness is better than much with wrongdoing. It is better to give alms than to treasure up gold. 9 For almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin. Those who perform deeds of charity and of righteousness will have fulness of life; 10 but those who commit sin are the enemies of their own lives.​

I have been accused of being “anti-Tobit” when in fact I am completely indifferent to the book of Tobit … until mentioned on this site I had literally NEVER thought of it at all (one way or another). However a quote from an early church Bishop has focused light on Tobit 12:9 via an alleged quote from that Bishop (I have no way to confirm or deny whether it was a direct quote, but am willing to accept it as a quote for convenience sake).

I prefer to approach Tobit like any other alleged “biblical truth” presented by any other source. I examine the quote on context of at least the whole paragraph and I compare it to known and trusted “Holy Scripture”.

The broad context is the Angel Raphael is revealing himself as not a man but an Angelic being to Tobit and his son, who have just offered Raphael a large sum of money as a reward for services rendered. The Angel responds with a general admonition to do good and honor God (not bad for general advice).

What remains is to examine the details of each verse in the paragraph and how they compare with other Scripture.

Verse 6:

• “Praise God and give thanks to him; exalt him and give thanks to him in the presence of all the living for what he has done for you. It is good to praise God and to exalt his name, worthily declaring the works of God. Do not be slow to give him thanks” … [Psalms 106:47 RSV] 47 Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the nations, that we may give thanks to thy holy name and glory in thy praise. … Same basic message, just after the fact rather than before.

Verse 7:

• “It is good to guard the secret of a king” … [Proverbs 25:9 RSV] 9 Argue your case with your neighbor himself, and do not disclose another's secret”… Both affirm the general wisdom on not “gossiping”
• “but gloriously to reveal the works of God” … [Psalms 9:1-2 RSV] 1 To the choirmaster: according to Muth-labben. A Psalm of David. I will give thanks to the LORD with my whole heart; I will tell of all thy wonderful deeds. 2 I will be glad and exult in thee, I will sing praise to thy name, O Most High. … The King after God’s heart agrees.
• “Do good, and evil will not overtake you.” … This verse misses the mark. It appears to ascribe the CAUSE of “evil will not overtake you” to the ACT of doing good. A search of scripture reveals a different CAUSE-EFFECT relationship at work:
  • [Psalms 34:11-18 RSV] 11 Come, O sons, listen to me, I will teach you the fear of the LORD. 12 What man is there who desires life, and covets many days, that he may enjoy good? 13 Keep your tongue from evil, and your lips from speaking deceit. 14 Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it. 15 The eyes of the LORD are toward the righteous, and his ears toward their cry. 16 The face of the LORD is against evildoers, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth. 17 When the righteous cry for help, the LORD hears, and delivers them out of all their troubles. 18 The LORD is near to the brokenhearted, and saves the crushed in spirit.
  • [Psalms 37:3-6 RSV] 3 Trust in the LORD, and do good; so you will dwell in the land, and enjoy security. 4 Take delight in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart. 5 Commit your way to the LORD; trust in him, and he will act. 6 He will bring forth your vindication as the light, and your right as the noonday.
  • [Isaiah 1:12-20 RSV] 12 "When you come to appear before me, who requires of you this trampling of my courts? 13 Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and sabbath and the calling of assemblies--I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. 14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them. 15 When you spread forth your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. 16 Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, 17 learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; defend the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. 19 If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; 20 But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword; for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."
  • From these scriptures, it is clear that God is the source of all “good” and all “blessings”. Our “evil” may cut us off from the blessings of God, but OUR DOING GOOD does not prevent evil, God prevents evil. Raphael is not “wrong” in his statement, but he has spoken carelessly and in a manner that invites one to seek to WORK to EARN blessings.

Verse 8:

• “Prayer is good when accompanied by fasting, almsgiving, and righteousness.” … Tobit seems alone in linking prayer to almsgiving. Is prayer “not good” when not accompanied by almsgiving? … Once again, Raphael appears to be a very “Pharisaical” Angel who promotes a works-based plan of blessings based on exchanging works for rewards. … not “Heretical” in its writings, but misleading and requiring a great deal of “reinterpretation” of the basic, literal message to mesh with the gospel of grace and faith.
• “A little with righteousness is better than much with wrongdoing.” … [Psalms 37:16 RSV] 16 Better is a little that the righteous has than the abundance of many wicked. [Proverbs 15:16 RSV] 16 Better is a little with the fear of the LORD than great treasure and trouble with it. [Proverbs 16:8 RSV] 8 Better is a little with righteousness than great revenues with injustice. … Scripture agrees.
• “It is better to give alms than to treasure up gold.” … I have no verse to offer, but the search revealed something interesting. There is no OT command to give Alms. There are warnings against taking advantage of the poor and sinning, but no commands to give. The word Alms or Almsgiving do not appear in the RSV OT outside of the Apocryphal books. On the other hand, “alms” appears many times in the NT. Typically by people attempting to justify their “holiness” and once by Jesus to make a rich man “perfect” (an offer he declined). … It seems that the Pharisaical works-legalism of Tobit was popular in the day of Jesus as a means to earning God’s favor. (Just an observation). … I find no scripture to support the need for almsgiving, only a promise of “treasure in heaven” as an exchange. So another verse from Tobit that is sort of true, but needs to explain away the obvious literal meaning.

Verse 9:

• “For almsgiving delivers from death” … as already mentioned, there are no OT verses on Almsgiving and the NT teaching is about “treasure in heaven” rather than death. Therefore there is no biblical support that giving money to the poor will save your life (prevent physical death).
• “and it (almsgiving) will purge away every sin.” … Sorry, but I cannot see this as saying anything other than what it appears to be saying. Giving money to the poor (almsgiving) removes (will purge away) every sin (sinless = saved, right?). I have a problem with that and can guarantee that nowhere else in scripture does God advocate buying salvation with good deeds (especially giving away cash to the poor). If you can explain how these words mean something else, then have at it. … Raphael really got this one wrong (are we sure which side of the angelic rebellion he was on?)

(sorry, I need to stop here because it is time for bed and I have work early in the morning.)

 

[Andrew]

Have at it you say? First off Tobit is OT era, Salvation through Christ was yet to come.
Legalism was the way of it and it was indeed a commandment from God to the Hebrews that they show mercy to the poor by giving them food, forgiving their debts, growing crops for them etc.. "sayeth the Lord thy God"
Breaking a command was sinful, by giving alms you were blessed, by not giving you would still have to offer sacrifice to cover that sin, it was all about giving one way or the other... they also expected Messiah to one day come and deliver them from sheol.
Jesus in fact preached to those of disobedience when in Sheol, however those in Abrahams bossom/paradise were told the good news.. Atpollard... is Moses still in sheol destined to hell and ignorant of Jesus' ministry and salvation? Nope.
And remember, this is OT Law.

You are applying OT LAW to Salvation through Christ to charge Tobias, a faithful servant, as a heretic for offering money to a poor stranger as God had commanded all Hebrews to do... I know what you are implying, that it teaches WoRKs SaLvATIoN.. truth is, you have a beef with the RCC and so do I, they took an OT Temple rite and Jewish Law, mixed them together, rejected Jesus' Salvation all together and preached that money will by you a lot in Heaven and that you can indulge in sin..

Christians know that anytime the OT says to "do this and that for I am the Lord thy God" He was speaking to Israel.. which included the Maccabees and Tobit, whom were faithful Hebrews... and whom expected a ressurection from death, so they followed straight in lawful faith the best that they could and offered sacrifices for atonement for sins along with almsgiving and prayer that they may obtain a better resurrection, they were awaiting Messiah Christ Jesus to fulfil the Law and take them out of Sheol.

Messiah spoke to them in Sheol and they heard the good news of his arrival, even in parables Jesus acknowledges the gulf that seperates those in Sheol awaiting the second death from those gathered in Abraham's bosom/Paradise awaiting ressurction unto life everlasting. Thus for Tobit and Tobias, almsgiving DID bless them and Jesus HAD delivered them from death for many of those righteous found captive were taken out of captivity.

Also,
Not so sure about the whole plagiarism thing you brought up

Revelation alone references/alludes to/paraphrase the OT over five hundred times.... I would not dare insinuate that it's a work of plagiarism, for by that logic, Rev. 8:2-4 took from Tobit 12:15

"And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."
Revelation 8:2

"And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."
Revelation 8:4

"I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One."
Tobit 12:15

Didn't God command the Israelites to give to the poor and the needy in the land?

"There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land."
Deuteronomy 15:11 (Tobit is a good example!)

“‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you. I am the Lord your God.’”
Leviticus 23:24

"So that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands."
Deuteronomy 14:29

Tobit offered alms to the helpful stranger because Tobit was a faithful Hebrew from Old Testament times and the Angel Raphael was also part of this OT story.... again, this was before Grace when Hebrews were under the Law, if John baptized for remission of sins before Jesus was even crucified it was because he, like Tobit, expected the redeemer to come and raise the dead uncoruptable unto ever lasting life.

 

[atpollard]

Legalism was the way of it and it was indeed a commandment from God to the Hebrews that they show mercy to the poor by giving them food, forgiving their debts, growing crops for them etc.. "sayeth the Lord thy God"

Just taking it one bit at a time.
Is “show mercy to the poor” really equivalent to “give alms to the poor”?
(Not a challenge, an honest question. They really do seem like different things to me. ”give a man a hand up, not a hand out” comes to mind.)

 

[atpollard]

Not so sure about the whole plagiarism thing you brought up

I am unsure what you are talking about.
If it is a reference to the Bishop’s quote, I was not implying “plagiarism”. I cannot compare the original letter from the bishop (in Greek or Latin) to the Tobit in its original language to know if the Bishop

1. Quoted Tobit
2. Paraphrased Tobit
3. Said something similar to what Tobit said.

I was simply stating the fact that it was beyond my linguistic skill and interest to confirm which it was.

 

[atpollard]

Didn't God command the Israelites to give to the poor and the needy in the land?

"There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land."
Deuteronomy 15:11 (Tobit is a good example!)

“‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you. I am the Lord your God.’”
Leviticus 23:24

"So that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands."
Deuteronomy 14:29

Thank you for your effort.
This is the EXACT question that I was asking.

Did God command Israel to give alms? If so, where?

Here is Deuteronomy 15, does this really sound like “alms” to you?

1 “At the end of every seven years you shall grant a remission of debts.2 This is the mannerof remission: every creditor shall release what he has loaned to his neighbor; he shall not exactit of his neighbor and his brother, because the LORD’S remission has been proclaimed. 3 From a foreigner you may exact it, but your hand shall release whatever of yours is with your brother.4 However, there will be no poor among you, since the LORD will surely bless you in the landwhich the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance to possess, 5 if only you listenobediently to the voice of the LORD your God, to observe carefully all this commandment whichI am commanding you today. 6 For the LORD your God will bless you as He has promised you, and you will lend to many nations, but you will not borrow; and you will rule over many nations,but they will not rule over you.​

7 “If there is a poor man with you, one of your brothers, in any of your towns in your landwhich the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand from your poor brother; 8 but you shall freely open your hand to him, and shall generously lendhim sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks. 9 Beware that there is no base [fn]thought in your heart, saying, ‘The seventh year, the year of remission, is near,’ and your eye is hostiletoward your poor brother, and you give him nothing; then he may cry to the LORD against you, and it will be a sin in you. 10 You shall generously give to him, and your heart shall not be grieved when you give to him, because for this thing the LORD your God will bless you in allyour work and in all [fn]your undertakings. 11 For the poor will never cease to be [fn]in the land;therefore I command you, saying, ‘You shall freely open your hand to your brother, to your needy and poor in your land.’​

12 “If your kinsman, a Hebrew man or woman, is sold to you, then he shall serve you sixyears, but in the seventh year you shall set him free. 13 When you set him [fn]free, you shall not send him away empty-handed. 14 You shall furnish him liberally from your flock and from your threshing floor and from your wine vat; you shall give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. 15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORDyour God redeemed you; therefore I command you this today. 16 It shall come about if he says to you, ‘I will not go out from you,’ because he loves you and your household, since he fares well with you; 17 then you shall take an awl and pierce it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also you shall do likewise to your maidservant.​

18 “It shall not seem hard to you when you set him free, for he has given you six years with double the service of a hired man; so the LORD your God will bless you in whatever you do.​

Leviticus 23:24 is clearly about God making provision for the poor (to help themselves) and in character with other verses about not abusing the poor or hardening your heart or close your hand … but it does not seem to be about giving “alms” as that concept is typically understood.

Deuteronomy 14:29 is an “anti-alms” verse. It is about a mandatory offering to a storehouse for the express purpose of providing for the Levites and the poor. To claim it as “alms” would be to claim my federal taxes as a “charitable contribution” because it pays for Government programs for the disadvantaged. That is not “almsgiving”.

I apologize if it seems like I am being pedantic, however I honestly expected to find OT commands about giving to the poor. What I do not want to do is to “add to the word of God” what is not there. So I really do welcome scripture on giving alms to the poor, but I will not read it where it does not appear.
Help the poor, YES.
Be generous, YES.
Give cash … NOT THAT I SEE.

(… and it is still a HUGE leap from “give alms” to “blessings” - or “forgive sins” - as a CAUSE and EFFECT relationship. I am just looking for a command to give alms.)

 

[atpollard]

Tobit offered alms to the helpful stranger because Tobit was a faithful Hebrew from Old Testament times and the Angel Raphael was also part of this OT story.... again, this was before Grace when Hebrews were under the Law, if John baptized for remission of sins before Jesus was even crucified it was because he, like Tobit, expected the redeemer to come and raise the dead uncoruptable unto ever lasting life.

I agree.
That is why I restricted my search to the OT.
I wanted to hold Tobit accountable to the correct standard … the OT revealed Law.

From what I read, it was a great story. I enjoyed parts of it and would probably love a Rankin-Bass animated version (the people that made “The Little Drummer Boy”). As scripture, some of what Raphael says offers some challenges that make me uncomfortable.

It honestly does read to me like Raphael is advocating for the Catholic concept of “indulgences” … making an offering of cash to the poor to buy forgiveness from sins. That bothers me - a lot. You can argue around it, but it requires a fair amount of mental gymnastics to make his plain words mean the opposite of what he said.

 

[Andrew]

I agree.
That is why I restricted my search to the OT.
I wanted to hold Tobit accountable to the correct standard … the OT revealed Law.

From what I read, it was a great story. I enjoyed parts of it and would probably love a Rankin-Bass animated version (the people that made “The Little Drummer Boy”). As scripture, some of what Raphael says offers some challenges that make me uncomfortable.

It honestly does read to me like Raphael is advocating for the Catholic concept of “indulgences” … making an offering of cash to the poor to buy forgiveness from sins. That bothers me - a lot. You can argue around it, but it requires a fair amount of mental gymnastics to make his plain words mean the opposite of what he said.

Glad you read it and yes it would make a great film.

When we help the poor and needy and give to them provisions we likewise give unto Christ, almsgiving does not mean money, it could be any act of hospitality to the poor.. Paul preaches about how some have entertained angels by their selfless act of generosity, Tobit is a great example of that.

The RCC would have us baptised in fire if they willed it, they obviously twist scripture out of context to create money market dogmas.. honestly, anyone who reads Tobit and really believes that Raphael is preaching indulgence is really one of a kind.. Raphael is more like the James of the OT. Martin Luther questioned James and Revelation for the same reason, he believed that they promote works salvation, don't be like Martin

Faith produces works of charity and Tobit was a very Faithful Isrealite who believed in the promised Messiah to come, his faith saved him, not his works.

 

[Andrew]

Thank you for your effort.
This is the EXACT question that I was asking.

Did God command Israel to give alms? If so, where?

Here is Deuteronomy 15, does this really sound like “alms” to you?

1 “At the end of every seven years you shall grant a remission of debts.2 This is the mannerof remission: every creditor shall release what he has loaned to his neighbor; he shall not exactit of his neighbor and his brother, because the LORD’S remission has been proclaimed. 3 From a foreigner you may exact it, but your hand shall release whatever of yours is with your brother.4 However, there will be no poor among you, since the LORD will surely bless you in the landwhich the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance to possess, 5 if only you listenobediently to the voice of the LORD your God, to observe carefully all this commandment whichI am commanding you today. 6 For the LORD your God will bless you as He has promised you, and you will lend to many nations, but you will not borrow; and you will rule over many nations,but they will not rule over you.​

7 “If there is a poor man with you, one of your brothers, in any of your towns in your landwhich the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand from your poor brother; 8 but you shall freely open your hand to him, and shall generously lendhim sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks. 9 Beware that there is no base [fn]thought in your heart, saying, ‘The seventh year, the year of remission, is near,’ and your eye is hostiletoward your poor brother, and you give him nothing; then he may cry to the LORD against you, and it will be a sin in you. 10 You shall generously give to him, and your heart shall not be grieved when you give to him, because for this thing the LORD your God will bless you in allyour work and in all [fn]your undertakings. 11 For the poor will never cease to be [fn]in the land;therefore I command you, saying, ‘You shall freely open your hand to your brother, to your needy and poor in your land.’​

12 “If your kinsman, a Hebrew man or woman, is sold to you, then he shall serve you sixyears, but in the seventh year you shall set him free. 13 When you set him [fn]free, you shall not send him away empty-handed. 14 You shall furnish him liberally from your flock and from your threshing floor and from your wine vat; you shall give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. 15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORDyour God redeemed you; therefore I command you this today. 16 It shall come about if he says to you, ‘I will not go out from you,’ because he loves you and your household, since he fares well with you; 17 then you shall take an awl and pierce it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also you shall do likewise to your maidservant.​

18 “It shall not seem hard to you when you set him free, for he has given you six years with double the service of a hired man; so the LORD your God will bless you in whatever you do.​

Leviticus 23:24 is clearly about God making provision for the poor (to help themselves) and in character with other verses about not abusing the poor or hardening your heart or close your hand … but it does not seem to be about giving “alms” as that concept is typically understood.

Deuteronomy 14:29 is an “anti-alms” verse. It is about a mandatory offering to a storehouse for the express purpose of providing for the Levites and the poor. To claim it as “alms” would be to claim my federal taxes as a “charitable contribution” because it pays for Government programs for the disadvantaged. That is not “almsgiving”.

I apologize if it seems like I am being pedantic, however I honestly expected to find OT commands about giving to the poor. What I do not want to do is to “add to the word of God” what is not there. So I really do welcome scripture on giving alms to the poor, but I will not read it where it does not appear.
Help the poor, YES.
Be generous, YES.
Give cash … NOT THAT I SEE.

(… and it is still a HUGE leap from “give alms” to “blessings” - or “forgive sins” - as a CAUSE and EFFECT relationship. I am just looking for a command to give alms.)

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luke 16:19-31

Abraham is basically saying that he should have known to give to the poor because it's written in the books of Moses and the Prophets, the rich man who was Jewish went to hell because he rejected what was written.




P. S.
Put those two letters in front of 'Alms'

 

[atpollard]

Raphael does speak of ”forgiving sin” and in the OT the forgiveness of Sin is linked to the shedding of blood in the sacrifice on an altar. “Tobit” (the book, not the person) introduces a link between “forgiveness” and “doing good” that is new to the OT. The closest OT link (outside of Tobit) appears to be God withholding forgiveness from those with no “charity”. Raphael flips the equation around and makes giving a positive factor rather than “not giving” a negative factor.

I wish Raphael had just stuck closer to what was already revealed. I can see the book of Tobit being used for theological mischief as well as for personal encouragement.

 

[NathanH83]

Just taking it one bit at a time.
Is “show mercy to the poor” really equivalent to “give alms to the poor”?
(Not a challenge, an honest question. They really do seem like different things to me. ”give a man a hand up, not a hand out” comes to mind.)

I think showing mercy to the poor would mean giving alms, but also forgiving debts, or being patient with debts (giving them time to pay back and not slamming them with high interest rates), and also just simply understanding their situation and helping them out. I’m sure there’s plenty of ways to show mercy to the poor.

 

[NathanH83]

Have at it you say? First off Tobit is OT era, Salvation through Christ was yet to come.
Legalism was the way of it and it was indeed a commandment from God to the Hebrews that they show mercy to the poor by giving them food, forgiving their debts, growing crops for them etc.. "sayeth the Lord thy God"
Breaking a command was sinful, by giving alms you were blessed, by not giving you would still have to offer sacrifice to cover that sin, it was all about giving one way or the other... they also expected Messiah to one day come and deliver them from sheol.
Jesus in fact preached to those of disobedience when in Sheol, however those in Abrahams bossom/paradise were told the good news.. Atpollard... is Moses still in sheol destined to hell and ignorant of Jesus' ministry and salvation? Nope.
And remember, this is OT Law.

You are applying OT LAW to Salvation through Christ to charge Tobias, a faithful servant, as a heretic for offering money to a poor stranger as God had commanded all Hebrews to do... I know what you are implying, that it teaches WoRKs SaLvATIoN.. truth is, you have a beef with the RCC and so do I, they took an OT Temple rite and Jewish Law, mixed them together, rejected Jesus' Salvation all together and preached that money will by you a lot in Heaven and that you can indulge in sin..

Christians know that anytime the OT says to "do this and that for I am the Lord thy God" He was speaking to Israel.. which included the Maccabees and Tobit, whom were faithful Hebrews... and whom expected a ressurection from death, so they followed straight in lawful faith the best that they could and offered sacrifices for atonement for sins along with almsgiving and prayer that they may obtain a better resurrection, they were awaiting Messiah Christ Jesus to fulfil the Law and take them out of Sheol.

Messiah spoke to them in Sheol and they heard the good news of his arrival, even in parables Jesus acknowledges the gulf that seperates those in Sheol awaiting the second death from those gathered in Abraham's bosom/Paradise awaiting ressurction unto life everlasting. Thus for Tobit and Tobias, almsgiving DID bless them and Jesus HAD delivered them from death for many of those righteous found captive were taken out of captivity.

Also,
Not so sure about the whole plagiarism thing you brought up

Revelation alone references/alludes to/paraphrase the OT over five hundred times.... I would not dare insinuate that it's a work of plagiarism, for by that logic, Rev. 8:2-4 took from Tobit 12:15

"And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."
Revelation 8:2

"And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."
Revelation 8:4

"I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One."
Tobit 12:15

Didn't God command the Israelites to give to the poor and the needy in the land?

"There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land."
Deuteronomy 15:11 (Tobit is a good example!)

“‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you. I am the Lord your God.’”
Leviticus 23:24

"So that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands."
Deuteronomy 14:29

Tobit offered alms to the helpful stranger because Tobit was a faithful Hebrew from Old Testament times and the Angel Raphael was also part of this OT story.... again, this was before Grace when Hebrews were under the Law, if John baptized for remission of sins before Jesus was even crucified it was because he, like Tobit, expected the redeemer to come and raise the dead uncoruptable unto ever lasting life.

Good points. The Old Testament law has all kinds of statutes that command the Israelites to help the poor. Not helping the poor in many instances is literally sin, as you pointed out.

 

[atpollard]

Martin Luther questioned James and Revelation for the same reason, he believed that they promote works salvation, don't be like Martin

I can understand why Martin would question James.

It is like those two proverbs that come one after the other where one tells you to “Answer a fool” and the other tells you “Do not answer a fool” and your first reaction is “So which is it? Make up your mind, already!” Eventually you figure it out … there is no “one size fits all” answer to that situation.

Paul is VERY CLEAR that Abraham was saved by ”faith not works” and James comes along and appears to say that “Abraham was saved by his works”. That is a reason for anyone to call a “time out” and tell Paul and James that they “got some explaining to do”. LIke the Proverbs about a fool, you can eventually figure it out. I guess Martin didn’t think that James should be saying things that people needed to “figure out” in the canonical scriptures. (I don’t know what Martin’s axe to grind with Revelation was … I just can’t figure out all of the symbolism so it joins Daniel as an “I don’t get it” book).

[However I was able to figure out “mene, mene, tekel, parsins” (weighed, weighed, measured and cut) before the author explained it … one of the few prophecies that I understood before God explained it in simple terms.]

 

[NathanH83]

I can understand why Martin would question James.

It is like those two proverbs that come one after the other where one tells you to “Answer a fool” and the other tells you “Do not answer a fool” and your first reaction is “So which is it? Make up your mind, already!” Eventually you figure it out … there is no “one size fits all” answer to that situation.

Paul is VERY CLEAR that Abraham was saved by ”faith not works” and James comes along and appears to say that “Abraham was saved by his works”. That is a reason for anyone to call a “time out” and tell Paul and James that they “got some explaining to do”. LIke the Proverbs about a fool, you can eventually figure it out. I guess Martin didn’t think that James should be saying things that people needed to “figure out” in the canonical scriptures. (I don’t know what Martin’s axe to grind with Revelation was … I just can’t figure out all of the symbolism so it joins Daniel as an “I don’t get it” book).

[However I was able to figure out “mene, mene, tekel, parsins” (weighed, weighed, measured and cut) before the author explained it … one of the few prophecies that I understood before God explained it in simple terms.]

Paul was clearly talking about the works of the law (dietary law, new moons, sabbaths, circumcision). Paul was making the point that Gentiles are not saved by the works of the law, but by faith in Christ.

However, James was talking about the works of righteousness (helping widows and orphans, remaining unstained from sin, helping the poor, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked).

But Protestants today quote Paul’s words and misconstrue them to contradict the book of James. They take Paul’s words about works (of the law) and misinterpret them to be about works (of righteousness). And where are Protestants getting that? From the teachings of Martin Luther.

Martin Luther wanted to get rid of the book of James because it exposed his misinterpretation of Paul’s words. Luther completely ignored the context in which Paul was speaking. And even to this day Protestants quote Paul’s words out of context.

 

[atpollard]

Paul was clearly talking about the works of the law (dietary law, new moons, sabbaths, circumcision). Paul was making the point that Gentiles are not saved by the works of the law, but by faith in Christ.

However, James was talking about the works of righteousness (helping widows and orphans, remaining unstained from sin, helping the poor, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked).

But Protestants today quote Paul’s words and misconstrue them to contradict the book of James. They take Paul’s words about works (of the law) and misinterpret them to be about works (of righteousness). And where are Protestants getting that? From the teachings of Martin Luther.

Martin Luther wanted to get rid of the book of James because it exposed his misinterpretation of Paul’s words. Luther completely ignored the context in which Paul was speaking. And even to this day Protestants quote Paul’s words out of context.

I think the difference in how we are saved is more fundamental than that. Even “good” works have no part in our justification (Ephesians 2:1-9) … they enter the picture at Ephesians 2:10 to prove to US that Ephesians 2:1-9 is about us. … But that is another argument for another day (although not completely unrelated).

Let me ask a blunt question about Tobit and the Old Testament:

“Do good works by people earn favor with God?”

This is just a request for a clear statement of your opinion, not a call to “prove” anything.

My simple and direct opinion is … NO.

 

[NathanH83]

I think the difference in how we are saved is more fundamental than that. Even “good” works have no part in our justification (Ephesians 2:1-9) … they enter the picture at Ephesians 2:10 to prove to US that Ephesians 2:1-9 is about us. … But that is another argument for another day (although not completely unrelated).

Let me ask a blunt question about Tobit and the Old Testament:

“Do good works by people earn favor with God?”

This is just a request for a clear statement of your opinion, not a call to “prove” anything.

My simple and direct opinion is … NO.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:21-24 - Bible Gateway passage: James 2:21-24 - New King James Version

 

[atpollard]

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:21-24 - Bible Gateway passage: James 2:21-24 - New King James Version

… as I said, another argument for another day.
However (re: Tobit and the OT) …

“Do good works by people earn favor with God?”

This is just a request for a clear statement of your opinion, not a call to “prove” anything.

 

[Andrew]

… as I said, another argument for another day.
However (re: Tobit and the OT) …

“Do good works by people earn favor with God?”

This is just a request for a clear statement of your opinion, not a call to “prove” anything.

You phrase it as if Raphael was speaking to an unbeliever.. which is very misleading.

How about

"Do good works of the faithful earn favor with God?"

My answer would be "as opposed to disfavor, of course"

I'll let my yay be yay... Tobit and Tobias were Hebrews under the Law, which does include GIVING TO THE NEEDY. Jesus rebukes the high priests over and over again for their lack of compassion toward the poor. He offers a parable about the certain rich man who was Jewish and his torment in sheol as a result of ignoring Lazarus who was a poor man, a man who's open wounds were licked by dogs while alive... Jesus teaches that when you show hospitality and campassion to the poor you do also unto Him.

OT = Law and Charity

NT = Grace with imparted Charity

 

[NathanH83]

… as I said, another argument for another day.
However (re: Tobit and the OT) …

“Do good works by people earn favor with God?”

This is just a request for a clear statement of your opinion, not a call to “prove” anything.

“(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;”
Romans 2:13 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 2:13 - New King James Version

 

[atpollard]

.

 

[Andrew]

.

:/