THREE BAPTISMS

[Doug]

Matthew 3:11 KJV - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

In this passage it can be seen baptism is more than just a water baptism.

John baptized with water, but Jesus was said to baptize without water.

Jesus is talking to Israel in this passage, not unto the church, the body of Christ.

Jesus said he would baptize believing Israel with the Holy Ghost; this can be seen below:

John 20:22-23 KJV - And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Jesus himself imparts the Holy Ghost to the believing disciples, and empowers them to remit sin. Notice that this power was given not to the church, the body of Christ, but only to the remnant of Israel disciples.

Acts 1:5 KJV - For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Jesus said the twelve apostles would be baptized with the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:2).

Acts 1:8 KJV - But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus was sending the apostles out to preach the gospel of the kingdom.

Acts 2:4 KJV - And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

I see only the twelve apostles as being filled with the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues.

The baptism of fire is that of judgment:

Isaiah 4:4 KJV - When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Zechariah 13:9 KJV - And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

1 Peter 1:7 KJV - That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

These verses are for Israel, not the church of God, the body of Christ.

The church today has one Spirit baptism:

1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[Josiah]

There is only one baptism. And it includes Water and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Pilgrim]

Matthew 3:11 KJV - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

In this passage it can be seen baptism is more than just a water baptism.

John baptized with water, but Jesus was said to baptize without water.

Jesus is talking to Israel in this passage, not unto the church, the body of Christ.

John the Baptist was talking in Matthew 3:11. Signifying the difference between his water baptism & what Jesus will do, does separate the 2

Did Paul testify that people are saved without water baptism just by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ?

1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.... 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. ~ KJV

Did Peter testify that water which is used for the putting away the filth of the flesh is not the kind of baptism he was talking about for how we are saved but by the answer of a good conscience towards God by believing in Jesus Christ is how we are saved & thus received the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit at our salvation moment hence born again of the Spirit?

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: KJV

There are verses for water baptism after salvation as in the case for the Gentiles believers in Acts 10:43-48 that had received the promise of the Holy Spirit by believing in Him in order to receive the remission of sins thus they were saved before water baptism. I believe water baptism is an ordinance for new believers to follow as His disciples but it is not a requirement to be saved or to receive the Holy Spirit in order to be saved, but believing in Jesus Christ is how everyone is saved.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. ~ KJV

Acts 2 account is often misapplied by believers into thinking repent is to turn from all sins & be water baptized in coming to Jesus Christ to be saved but the call to repent was to repent from unbelief by believing in Him to be saved since there is only one gospel. Note the verse where they were pricked for crucifying Jesus for not believing in Him.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. ~ KJV

So the only call to repent is from unbelief by believing in Him to be saved & THEN with Jesus Christ in them, they have power to repent from sin's dominion over their lives as we look to Jesus Christ every day to help us lay aside every weight & sin in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son. That's what discipleship is all about; living that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. KJV

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. KJV

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.....8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. KJV

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. KJV

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ~ KJV

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. KJV

 

[Pilgrim]

Jesus said he would baptize believing Israel with the Holy Ghost; this can be seen below:

John 20:22-23 KJV - And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Jesus himself imparts the Holy Ghost to the believing disciples, and empowers them to remit sin. Notice that this power was given not to the church, the body of Christ, but only to the remnant of Israel disciples.

Actually the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost would be sent by the Father when Jesus was no longer with them.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me..... 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.....10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.....

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you....

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ~ KJV

So John 20:22-23 is the same temporary indwelling of the Holy Ghost as Matthew 10th chapter was when Judas Iscariot had received & he wasn't a believer.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him..... 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. ~ KJV

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. ` KJV

So Judas Iscariot was never a believer in the first place & yet he had received the same temporary indwelling of the Holy Ghost in Matthew 10th chapter as the rest of His disciples did.

That means His disciples were officially saved at Pentecost when THEN they were permitted to preach the gospel to the world & NOT before.

Noticed how they had received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ without performing water baptism to make this happen?

 

[Pilgrim]

Jesus himself imparts the Holy Ghost to the believing disciples, and empowers them to remit sin. Notice that this power was given not to the church, the body of Christ, but only to the remnant of Israel disciples.

Acts 1:5 KJV - For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Jesus said the twelve apostles would be baptized with the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:2).

Acts 1:8 KJV - But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus was sending the apostles out to preach the gospel of the kingdom.

Acts 2:4 KJV - And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

I see only the twelve apostles as being filled with the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues.

There were more than just 12 disciples. If we read in the 1st chapter, we see about 120 disciples.

Acts 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) ~ KJV

So when you read this;

Acts 2:1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. ~ KJV

If there were only 12, not sure how much noise they can make speaking all in foreign tongues, but about a 120 could achieve this kind of commotion.

Plus, there are more than 12 languages listed so has to be more than 12. So when I read Acts 2:1, I take it to mean about 120 disciples were there.

Also, the power to forgive sins is given to all who are His disciples.

John 8: 30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. ~ KJV

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. ~ KJV

So all saved believers can forgive sins, otherwise Jesus would not bother to teach believers this prayer.

 

[Pilgrim]

The baptism of fire is that of judgment:

Isaiah 4:4 KJV - When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Zechariah 13:9 KJV - And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

1 Peter 1:7 KJV - That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

These verses are for Israel, not the church of God, the body of Christ.

You may want to reconsider that with Him again.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. ~ KJV

1 Corinthians 6: 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. ~ KJV

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. ~ KJV

I believe God will judge His House first at the pre great tribulation rapture event & those whom have NOT looked to Jesus Christ, trusting Him as their Good Shepherd to help them discern by His words in the KJV good & evil & call on Him for help to depart from iniquity as well as looking to Him for help to lay aside every weight & sin in running that race DAILY for the high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honor in His House with His crowning achievements on us to His glory, will find themselves left behind as vessels unto dishonor.

That is why former believers are still called to repent before the Bridegroom comes because He still abides otherwise that is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from as disqualified to attend the Marriage Supper in His honor but shall be resurrected after the great tribulation.

2 Timothy 2:10-13 & 2 Timothy 2:18-26 for further studies on the 2 kinds of inheritance awaiting all saved believers.

Anyway, 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 shows a fire trying every man's work, & the Church at Thyatira in Revelation 2:18-25 were warned to repent or else be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation so you have to discern that judgment will come on the House of God first after all.

 

[mailmandan]

There is only one baptism. And it includes Water and the Holy Spirit.

Certain people view "water" in John 3:5 as water baptism, yet I see a connection between water in John 3:5 and water in (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39). The word "water" is also used in scripture as an emblem of the word of God and is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26)

 

[Stephen]

Certain people view "water" in John 3:5 as water baptism, yet I see a connection between water in John 3:5 and water in (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39). The word "water" is also used in scripture as an emblem of the word of God and is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26)

What is literal and what is a figure of speech? That is the question.

I only see one literal Christian baptism {JtB was purely Jewish) and that is with water.
Other mentions of baptism or baptising are figures of speech.

Incidentally the term "baptism with [or in/by/of] the Holy Spirit" never appears in scripture; only in the verb form.
The noun term seems to have been coined in the late 19th century by D L Moody & RA Torrey at the beginning of the Pentecostal movement

 

[mailmandan]

What is literal and what is a figure of speech? That is the question.

I only see one literal Christian baptism {JtB was purely Jewish) and that is with water.
Other mentions of baptism or baptising are figures of speech.

Incidentally the term "baptism with [or in/by/of] the Holy Spirit" never appears in scripture; only in the verb form.
The noun term seems to have been coined in the late 19th century by D L Moody & RA Torrey at the beginning of the Pentecostal movement

1 Corinthians 12:13 seems very clear to me - "baptized by one Spirit into one body" in connection with Ephesians 4:5 - "..one baptism."

In regards to water baptism, in 1 Corinthians 1:12-13, we read - Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? One in that sense in regards to being baptized in the name of Jesus and not in the name of Paul. Christ is not divided and neither is His body.

 

[Stephen]

deleted

 

[Stephen]

1 Corinthians 12:13 seems very clear to me - "baptized by one Spirit into one body" in connection with Ephesians 4:5 - "..one baptism."

I agree that it is very clear. Baptism in both cases refer to baptism in water.
It is in baptism(in water) that we come into the body of Christ - the one baptism that brings us into the one body (Eph 4:4)

In regards to water baptism, in 1 Corinthians 1:12-13, we read - Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? One in that sense in regards to being baptized in the name of Jesus and not in the name of Paul. Christ is not divided and neither is His body.

I can't see what you are saying here.

 

[mailmandan]

I agree that it is very clear. Baptism in both cases refer to baptism in water.
It is in baptism (in water) that we come into the body of Christ - the one baptism that brings us into the one body (Eph 4:4)

I can't see what you are saying here.

1 Corinthians 12:13 clearly states - For by one Spirit (not by H20) we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. In regards to "drink" and "water" see John 4:10,14; 7:37-39. There is a clear distinction between water baptism and Spirit baptism. Matthew 3:11 - “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

 

[Stephen]

1 Corinthians 12:13 clearly states - For by one Spirit (not by H20) we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. In regards to "drink" and "water" see John 4:10,14; 7:37-39. There is a clear distinction between water baptism and Spirit baptism. Matthew 3:11 - “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

It is in (water) baptism that the Spirit acts to bring is into the body of Christ. As the Amplified Bible translates this "For by [[a]means of the personal agency of] one [Holy] Spirit we were all, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, baptized [and by baptism united together] into one body, and all made to drink of one [Holy] Spirit." where the footnote
[a] says "Kenneth Wuest, Word Studies."
says "Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon."

We need to distinguish between the actions of the Holy Spirit in (water) baptism and those in the so-called Baptism with the Holy Spirit. They have different purposes.

I'm happy to discuss this with you but I'm not sure this is the right place. I don't want to derail Doug's thread any further.

Also this is not the right place to start to understand the purpose of (water) baptism. We would need to start in the OT. Many things in the OT at the physical level (but not everything and not exclusively) foretell of something in the NT at a spiritual level. For example in the OT baptism (ritual bathing -tevilar in a mikvah) purifies at the physical level but in the NT spiritual purifying at the spiritual level -forgiveness of sins and renewal (Ti 3:5).

 

[mailmandan]

It is in (water) baptism that the Spirit acts to bring is into the body of Christ. As the Amplified Bible translates this "For by [[a]means of the personal agency of] one [Holy] Spirit we were all, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, baptized [and by baptism united together] into one body, and all made to drink of one [Holy] Spirit." where the footnote
[a] says "Kenneth Wuest, Word Studies."
says "Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon."

We need to distinguish between the actions of the Holy Spirit in (water) baptism and those in the so-called Baptism with the Holy Spirit. They have different purposes.

I'm happy to discuss this with you but I'm not sure this is the right place. I don't want to derail Doug's thread any further.

Also this is not the right place to start to understand the purpose of (water) baptism. We would need to start in the OT. Many things in the OT at the physical level (but not everything and not exclusively) foretell of something in the NT at a spiritual level. For example in the OT baptism (ritual bathing -tevilar in a mikvah) purifies at the physical level but in the NT spiritual purifying at the spiritual level -forgiveness of sins and renewal (Ti 3:5).

Spirit baptism is the reality and water baptism is the picture of the reality. Neither ceremonials washings in the OT cleansed the heart from sin at the spiritual level and neither does water baptism in the NT. Spirit baptism and water baptism are "two distinct" baptisms. In Acts 10:43-47, we read - All the prophets testify of Him, that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter responded, “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

So as we can see, these Gentiles in Acts 10 believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:48)

As Greek scholar AT Robertson points , "A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality."

Romans 6:4 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Read Romans 6:4 commentary using Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament. Study the bible online using commentary on Romans 6:4 and more!...

www.biblestudytools.com

If you miss that, then you end up with the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration. What is procured in Spirit baptism is merely signified in water baptism. The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration."

Plain ordinary H20 has no power to mystically cleanse the heart from sin and regenerate the new believer. I see that you are Catholic, so we will most likely not come to an agreement on this. Prior to my conversion several years ago, I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church, so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening.

 

[Josiah]

Plain ordinary H20 has no power to mystically cleanse the heart from sin and regenerate the new believer.

True... but it's not "plain ordinary H20," it is water WITH the Word, it is water WITH the Holy Spirit.

And it is in the hands of God. It is a "means of grace" (as Christians have referred to it since at least the year 110 AD), a "tool in the hand of the Carpenter" as it is often called. A hammer is an innate object..... capable of doing nothing by itself. But in the hands of a very talented, skilled and experienced carpenter... when it is NOT alone, NOT just a plain hammer... it is capable of accomplishing miracles.

Jesus once healed a man with a mud ball..... the mud was just mud but it was not alone, in was connected to the words of Jesus,,, and in the powerful, miracle-making hands of Jesus. The Father made a woman from a rib but it was not just a small amount of calcium, it was connected to the Word and used by God. God created the entire universe by just saying words....


The Bible says there is ONE Baptism. I realize you disagree but I hold that the Bible is likely correct. That ONE Baptism may have both water and the Spirit... and may have various purposes.... but when the Bible flat-out says there is ONE Baptism, I think it wisest to agree and not disagree.




.

 

[Stephen]

Being baptised with water and being baptised with the Holy Spirit are biblically based events in the life of a Christian. However only the former is called 'baptism' in scripture. Nowhere in scripture is the noun term "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" to be found. It seems to have been a term invented in the late 19th century by RA Torrey and DL Moody are the beginning of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. And it seems to have caused a great deal of confusion because of Eph 4:5 (one baptism) to the extent of people trying to obliterate baptism with water as a true and important event.

The two events are different with different purposes. I have an interesting book Receiving The Power by Zeb Bradford Long and Douglas McMurray, two Presbyterian Charismatics.

Their thesis is that there are two distinctive ways in which the Holy Spirit acts and these are often confused, not the least because the same phrases are used in scripture regarding them. These two ways are referred to by Long & McMurray as ‘the Spirit within’ and ‘the Spirit upon’.

Corresponding to these there are two ways that we receive the Holy Spirit. There are also two ways we are filled with the Holy Spirit, although these are easier to separate as two different Greek words are used.

In baptism (with water) the Holy Spirit brings about the following in those being baptised:
1. forgiveness of sins (original sin and personal sin)
2. rebirth (regeneration/ renewal) as children of God
3. incorporation into the body of Christ, the Church, the New Covenant
It is the initiation into Christ and a life in Christ.

Long and McMurray use the term "baptism with the Holy Spirit" but say this:
..why is the term baptism used? Doesn’t this create confusion and entangle us in debates about the sacrament of water baptism?
We use the word baptism to signify an initiation. Just as the water baptism is the initiation into Christ, Holy Spirit baptism is the initiation into the power of the Spirit. Because it is a beginning we do not speak of being “baptised with the Holy Spirit” every time God uses us in some new manifestation of the Spirit. Baptism with the Spirit refers to the first time we sought the Lord and he answered our prayer with power. It is a gateway into power ministry.

In scripture:
Jesus baptised with water
Peter baptised with water
Philip baptised with water
Paul baptised with water.

The Church has always baptised with water from the beginning.
Two first century texts:
"Regarding baptism, baptise thus. After giving the forgoing instructions, Baptise in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit in running water. But if you have no running water, baptise in any other..." Didache – (1st century AD)

"A man is dead before he receives the seal, he puts off death and receives life. The seal, therefore is water. The dead go down into the water and come out of it living" The Shepherd 9:16:3 (AD 80)

 

[mailmandan]

True... but it's not "plain ordinary H20," it is water WITH the Word, it is water WITH the Holy Spirit.

And it is in the hands of God. It is a "means of grace" (as Christians have referred to it since at least the year 110 AD), a "tool in the hand of the Carpenter" as it is often called. A hammer is an innate object..... capable of doing nothing by itself. But in the hands of a very talented, skilled and experienced carpenter... when it is NOT alone, NOT just a plain hammer... it is capable of accomplishing miracles.

Jesus once healed a man with a mud ball..... the mud was just mud but it was not alone, in was connected to the words of Jesus,,, and in the powerful, miracle-making hands of Jesus. The Father made a woman from a rib but it was not just a small amount of calcium, it was connected to the Word and used by God. God created the entire universe by just saying words....

The Bible says there is ONE Baptism. I realize you disagree but I hold that the Bible is likely correct. That ONE Baptism may have both water and the Spirit... and may have various purposes.... but when the Bible flat-out says there is ONE Baptism, I think it wisest to agree and not disagree.

It certainly is not "plain ordinary H20" found in a baptismal pool that cleanses our hearts from sin and regenerates the new believer. Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. Did you see that? The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Yet we also see that "water" is used in scripture as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit is the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

As for ONE baptism, there is only one baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is Spirit baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13) and not water baptism. Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

 

[mailmandan]

In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. See the connection?

 

[Stephen]

In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. See the connection?

Yes, it is baptism with water that we receive the Holy Spirit.

It is in baptism with water that we are renewed, reborn as children of God


Renewal
“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (Jn 3:6)
What does Jesus mean here? There is not room to go into a whole lot of detail. What is born of the flesh is referring to our un-regenerated state, our natural earthly state before baptism. What is born of the spirit is spirit refers to our regenerated state, our transformed state by the power of the Holy Spirit in baptism.

This renewal was also foreshadowed in the OT
"So Naaman went down and plunged into the Jordan seven times at the word of the man of God. His flesh became again like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean" (2Kg 5:14)

And in the NT
“..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit.” (Titus 3:5)

“Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.” (Rom 6:3-4).

Romans continues in verse 5:
"For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection."
If we are not united with Christ in his death (by baptism), we will not be united to him in the resurrection.

"In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions;" (Col 2:11-13)


Children of God
"For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:26-27)

Paul tells us in Romans 9:8 “That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.” It is in baptism (with water) that we become children of the promise; we are made children of God.

Baptism incorporates us in to the body of Christ, the Church
In Acts 2:47 we learn: "Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day."
Added to what? Well, added to the Church,

Then Paul says: "For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." (Gal 3:27).
In baptism we clothe ourselves with Christ. This is being saved and also being part of the body of Christ

"As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptised into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit." (1Cor 12:12-13).
Baptism brings us into the body of Christ (the Church).

This text also shows this: "one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;" (Eph 4:4-5)

Through baptism we are brought into the new covenant “In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:11-12)
This clearly links a “spiritual circumcision” with baptism, a link from baptism to the covenant, not through physical circumcision (as in the Old Covenant) but a spiritual one.

This is why we must be “born from above”. Jews were born into the Old Covenant. When we are born from above we are born into the New Covenant.

Converts to Judaism had a formal conversion process which involved undergoing the ritual bath (in a mikvah) and for men circumcision. For Christians last requirement was dispensed with at the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. But the ritual bath remained as baptism.

 

[mailmandan]

Sadly Stephen, I can see that you are throughly indoctrinated into Roman Catholicism and are most likely, unteachable. As I already previously explained, baptism in water is not the cause of receiving the Holy Spirit or being renewed, reborn as children of God. You have been drinking the wrong water. (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39; 1 Corinthians 12:13)

In regards to Naaman in 2 Kings 5:8-15, in the first place, if being healed from leprosy is an illustration of salvation, we have another case that reveals one can be saved without any water. Read it in (Luke 5:12-15). No water is found here. Secondly, Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (vs. 17). If we follow this "example," we will have to baptized unbelievers! Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins. The Bible uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD, not of salvation by water baptism. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with salvation by water baptism, but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out (2 Kings 5:15).

The Bible clearly states in Titus 3:5 that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. Water baptism is a work of righteousness and we are not saved by works of righteousness. Matthew 3:13 - Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?” 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him. The washing of regeneration refers to spiritual washing/purification of the soul that is accomplished by the Holy Spirit (Who is the source of living water) through the word of God at the moment of salvation and not plain ordinary H20. Once again, the word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration."

In Romans 6:4, the phrase "buried with Him through baptism," seems to support the idea that baptism is the instrumental cause of justification. However, even here baptism could be understood as the sign of justification. It is not unusual in scripture to call the reality by the name of its sign. Thus, for example, Paul says that all Christians are circumcised (even though one may not be physically circumcised) - meaning that they possess what circumcision signifies. (Philippians 3:3) Using this kind of language, Paul can speak of the great reality of the believers’ spiritual union with Christ, and the benefits which flow from that union, in terms of baptism, its sign. What is procured in Spirit baptism is merely signified (but not procured) in water baptism. A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

Romans 6:3 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
Romans 6:4 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

We must give this interpretation by the context. Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that faith, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification. (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1) That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification." (Romans 4:24,25)

Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by faith, not baptism. *Hermeneutics. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." (Colossians 2:12) Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by immersing the new believer in and out of the water (and not merely sprinkling water on the head of an infant who is incapable of believing the gospel).