Those in heaven remembering those in hell?

[Lamb]

There is only happiness and joy in heaven...so what happens with the memories of those who will be in hell in torment and anguish?

 

[NewCreation435]

It would only be speculation without any proof because we don't know the answer to this.

 

[Andrew]

I'm drawing such a blank but whats the verse about Abraham in Heaven and someone in Hell and they could see each other or communicate? I'll look for the verse later on, but I also believe that the angels will witness the torment of those in hell (burned in front of the Holy angels and saints)... Im probably butchering this so I'll get back

 

[tango]

There is only happiness and joy in heaven...so what happens with the memories of those who will be in hell in torment and anguish?

This is a bit of a tough one. I think the best we can do is speculate because I don't recall a whole lot about that in Scripture. It does seem that it would be hard to rejoice in heaven, knowing that people very dear to you were in torment with no escape.

 

[psalms 91]

What about Lazuarus and the rich man

 

[hedrick]

This whole question is a nightmare. All answers are equally bad. Some kind of amnesia? People don't care about other people being tormented? It's a big problem for apologetics, because it makes a key part of Christianity seem incoherent.

I was a Calvinist for a lot of my life. It has an intellectually clear answer: everyone deserves hell. We're just lucky that God has chosen to save any of us. It's simple and coherent. But it seems at odds with the OT, in which people who are certainly not perfect but are repentant are called righteous, where God seems to reject universal destruction in the aftermath of the flood, and where God spends 2000 years figuring out how to save an Israel that keeps blowing it. Can we imagine Jesus agreeing with the Calvinist vision?

I vacillate between universalism (per 1 Cor 3:13, though it may only be meant to apply to Christians) and something like conditional immortality. The images of punishment in the NT can reasonably be understood as destruction. Eternal fire and worms all come from OT passages describing what happens to the dead bodies, not everlasting punishment. Lazarus and the rich man looks more like Jesus is using current stereotypes to make a point, like talking about Peter at the pearly gates. Do we really think Father Abraham is going to preside over a realm where those in hell can talk to him? I believe Jesus is actually supposed to preside over judgement, right?

 

[hedrick]

One question that has fascinated me. Why did this become such a significant issue in the modern period, but not in traditional Christianity? Why didn't it bother people in the 16th Cent that some of their relatives and friends were going to be tormented?

I have two ideas, but I'm certainly not sure these are the only possibilities:
* Life was a lot tougher. People were so used to terrible suffering that they were hardened compared to current Americans
* People assumed that all church members would be saved. It was only evil non-Christians who were suffer. And most people had never met these (except maybe Jews, who for much of that time period were stereotyped).

Of course the other possibility is that people today are so pampered by worldly luxury that we're unable to appreciate the true glory of God, and just what rejecting him really means.

 

[Andrew]

This whole question is a nightmare. All answers are equally bad. Some kind of amnesia? People don't care about other people being tormented? It's a big problem for apologetics, because it makes a key part of Christianity seem incoherent.

lol I agree me answer was pretty bad

 

[hedrick]

lol I agree me answer was pretty bad

You were referencing Luke 16:19ff, which is certainly a key passage. It's the most explicit in the Gospels about the afterlife. There's a lot of argument about whether it was intended as a literal description or a parable. Some people claim that because it uses a specific name (Lazarus) it can't be a parable. I claim that it's a lot more likely that Father Abraham presiding over heaven is a use of current folklore than literal.

It's also worth noting that in that passage the word used is Hades. There were two Greek words for the bad place, Hades and Gehenna. There were lots of ideas in the 1st Cent just as there are lots now. But where people made a distinction between temporary and permanent punishment, Hades was often used for temporary. But even Gehenna was often viewed as temporary for most people.

It is surprisingly difficult to take all of the references to punishment in the various NT books and produce a consistent view, without using questionable exegesis. Unfortunately most people don't admit just how hard they've had to hit the hammer to get their square pegs into the round holes.