The Passover, Parents, Children, Salvation

[Josiah]

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See Exodus 11:1 - 12:36


It's the account of the last plague..... that of the first born of all..... and the whole reason and lesson of the Passover. This was/is a HUGE and extremely IMPORTANT event for Jews (and should be for Christians).


The First born of humans of course could have 80 years old or 8 hours old.... it made no difference whatsoever (age isn't mentioned.... it didn't matter). Age was entirely irrelevant. There almost certainly were "first born" of all ages.



Exodus 12:21-23

The Angel of Death came to all first born
God provided a way for the first born of the faithful to escape and be saved.
The parents of the first born did this .... in obedience and faith.... parents trusting God.
When the Angel of Death came, the Angel recognized the blood and the faith and obedience of the parents (that of the first born seems to have been irrelevant)
Thus their child (whether 8 hours or 8 years or 80 years old) was saved.




Some questions -


COULD God has just deleted the whole bit about the Passover, the Lamb, the Blood, etc., etc., etc. and just said "I'll exempt all Hebrew first born?"

COULD God have said, "But don't do this unless the first born is over the age of X because the Angel wouldn't do anything to those under that age?"

COULD God have said, "The faith and obedience of the parents means squat, it's the faith of the first born that is all-important, so forget all about the Passover, the Lamb, the blood, the door?"

The Angel of Death was coming.... the first born of the faithful would have been swept away.... how did God provide salvation for the children of the faithful? By what the child did or the parents? By some quality and/or action of the first born or of the faithful?



Observations....


1. Obviously, God wanted to save the children of the faithful. And rather than doing it by "fiat" (without any means or process or involvement of people or things; just by His willing it and declaring it so), God instead used a means - one He gives ENORMOUS meaning to. And He placed all this in the context of families and communities rather than a purely, radically individualistic thing. This was to be an act of the family, the community.... one of faith and obedience.


2. I wonder if placing this in the context of family and community.... making it a matter of faith and obedience of the family and community.... was to stress that this child of the faithful is to be raised in and surrounded by faith? After all, it would have been just as easy for God to snap His finger and bingo, all Hebrew first born would be saved. But He didn't do that. He placed all this in the context of faith, family, community. Interesting.


3. I think we can see here a very communal, family emphasis here.... the whole point seems to be the faith and obedience of the parents, family, community of believers not on the receiver of the saving. We can see that here children are saved because of what their parents believe and do. In one of the grandest, most important events in all the Bible. Interesting. Perhaps God saves these.... who would very likely be raised in the faith by the faithful.


4. Did the parents save their first born or did God? Well, God USED a process of faith and obedience, but certainly it was GOD (not the parents) who caused the Angel to pass over the homes of the faithful.... The Angel is not taking directions from the parents (and certainly not the child) but from God. Did the blood save the child? Not exactly, God is always the one and only Savior and God gets 100% of the credit in Exodus 11-12. The blood (many would say a "type" of the Blood of Jesus) is not the point but rather than God uses, accepts, acts in light of it.


5. I see a possible connection to Baptism in the NT. I'd not be dogmatic about that, and I don't think we can form dogma out of an example (even one of the most significant and important in all the Bible). I DO think we can learn from Exodus 11-12 that God can (and at least once DID) work through the faith of the parents (and an act they did in trust). I think this very powerful, very important event undermines the very radical individualism of modern Christianity since the Enlightenment and reveals that God has a very contextual, communal, family perspective. I think it affirms that while God CAN work purely by fiat, He equally CAN work through means (the means itself impotent) and through the faith of the parents, family and community. In the case of the Passover, its the faith of the faithful that is effectual, not of the first born.



- Josiah



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[atpollard]

The Angel of Death came to all first born
God provided a way for the first born of the faithful to escape and be saved.
The parents of the first born did this .... in obedience and faith.... parents trusting God.
When the Angel of Death came, the Angel recognized the blood and the faith and obedience of the parents (that of the first born seems to have been irrelevant)
Thus their child (whether 8 hours or 8 years or 80 years old) was saved.

Umm ... isn't it really more likely that the 80 year old 'first born' put the blood on his own lintel rather than his 100+ year old parents did it?
Heck, his 30-40 year old grandson probably performed the actual task.

Other than that, yeah, Passover is a good visual analogy for a lot of things ... including the Family Covenant.

Although the blood that saved the child was not applied to the child, it was applied to the wooden posts ... so it really points to Christ's blood applied to the wooden Cross as being responsible for the saving from 'death' of all the 'first born' ("whether 8 hours or 8 years or 80 years old"). Jesus' blood was applied by our Great High Priest, once for all mankind, so the responsibility fell to the 'parent' of mankind rather than the parent of the individual.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Lamb]

By faith the adults applied the blood knowing God would save them...them and their households. And God did.

Yes, I see similarities to baptism and how God saves by His Word through the waters. It's still connected to Jesus' blood and death which a lot of people don't understand or can't see...or refuse because their pastors told them water is just water. Yet, God has used means throughout the bible to accomplish things and that we cannot ignore.

 

[MennoSota]

The interesting thing about the last plague is that Egyptian families were graciously spared as they followed God's instructions rather than the gods of Egypt.
God promised to withhold his judgment. This is the key. Humans could trust this promise or ignore it, but God kept his promise.
There is no connection to baptism in the Passover. There is connection to communion, however.

 

[Josiah]

The interesting thing about the last plague is that Egyptian families were graciously spared as they followed God's instructions rather than the gods of Egypt.

Actually, it was their FIRST BORN that were spared by their PARENTS following God's instructions. Some of those first born would have been tiny babies..... being saved..... because of what THEIR PARENTS did..... Hum. Interesting.

 

[MennoSota]

Actually, it was their FIRST BORN that were spared by their PARENTS following God's instructions. Some of those first born would have been tiny babies..... being saved..... because of what THEIR PARENTS did..... Hum. Interesting.

They were only spared immediate death. There is no correlation to spiritual life and being redeemed of their sins. I believe any attempt to spiritualize the event is misguided.

 

[pinacled]

pesach is always observed on a full moon.!

if so then there are a certain number of days to consider in counting the omer.
Should shavuot coincide with another full moon?

Adonai spoke to Moshe and Aharon in the land of Egypt; he said, 2 “You are to begin your calendar with this month; it will be the first month of the year for you. 3 Speak to all the assembly of Isra’el and say, ‘On the tenth day of this month, each man is to take a lamb or kid for his family, one per household — 4 except that if the household is too small for a whole lamb or kid, then he and his next-door neighbor should share one, dividing it in proportion to the number of people eating it. 5 Your animal must be without defect, a male in its first year, and you may choose it from either the sheep or the goats.

checking some folds of time..
No work to be done?
so when does the omer count begin?

“‘This will be a day for you to remember and celebrate as a festival to Adonai; from generation to generation you are to celebrate it by a perpetual regulation.

15 “‘For seven days you are to eat matzah — on the first day remove the leaven from your houses. For whoever eats hametz [leavened bread] from the first to the seventh day is to be cut off from Isra’el. 16 On the first and seventh days, you are to have an assembly set aside for God. On these days no work is to be done, except what each must do to prepare his food; you may do only that. 17 You are to observe the festival of matzah, for on this very day I brought your divisions out of the land of Egypt. Therefore, you are to observe this day from generation to generation by a perpetual regulation. 18 From the evening of the fourteenth day of the first month until the evening of the twenty-first day, you are to eat matzah. 19 During those seven days, no leaven is to be found in your houses. Whoever eats food with hametz in it is to be cut off from the community of Isra’el — it doesn’t matter whether he is a foreigner or a citizen of the land. 20 Eat nothing with hametz in it. Wherever you live, eat matzah.’”

For six days you are to eat matzah; on the seventh day there is to be a festive assembly for Adonai your God; do not do any kind of work.

9 “You are to count seven weeks; you are to begin counting seven weeks from the time you first put your sickle to the standing grain.10 You are to observe the festival of Shavu‘ot [weeks] for Adonai your God with a voluntary offering, which you are to give in accordance with the degree to which Adonai your God has prospered you. 11 You are to rejoice in the presence of Adonai your God — you, your sons and daughters, your male and female slaves, the L’vi’im living in your towns, and the foreigners, orphans and widows living among you — in the place where Adonai your God will choose to have his name live. 12 Remember that you were a slave in Egypt; then you will keep and obey these laws.

(Maftir) 13 “You are to keep the festival of Sukkot for seven days after you have gathered the produce of your threshing-floor and winepress. 14 Rejoice at your festival — you, your sons and daughters, your male and female slaves, the L’vi’im, and the foreigners, orphans and widows living among you. 15 Seven days you are to keep the festival for Adonai your God in the place Adonai your God will choose, because Adonai your God will bless you in all your crops and in all your work, so you are to be full of joy!

16 “Three times a year all your men are to appear in the presence of Adonai your God in the place which he will choose — at the festival of matzah, at the festival of Shavu‘ot and at the festival of Sukkot. They are not to show up before Adonai empty-handed, 17 but every man is to give what he can, in accordance with the blessing Adonai your God has given you.

Haftarah Re’eh: Yesha‘yahu (Isaiah) 54:11–55:5

B’rit Hadashah suggested readings for Parashah Re’eh: 1 Corinthians 5:9–13; 1 Yochanan (1 John) 4:1–

proposing a thought for everyone to consider..
Yeshua and the disciples observed pesach on the full moon.
After which Yeshua was tried and convicted with roman precept (law)[by majority vote of the ruling caste] to be scourged then crucified.
Then was resurrected in glory during the week of no work.

A week after pesach, Mary and the others visited the tomb finding it empty.
Then one week after Yeshua resurrected and showed himself to his beloved on yom shishli.
To which would give the beginning of the omer count and subsequently align shavout with a coiciding full moon.

[○][°]♢♢□□□[ ][♢]
Symbols without a key, till later.



My Hebrew Dictionary: Days of the Week




Blessed is the Name

 

[atpollard]

They were only spared immediate death. There is no correlation to spiritual life and being redeemed of their sins. I believe any attempt to spiritualize the event is misguided.

Especially since all of the firstborn adults (except Moses, Joshua and Kaleb) later died with the rest during the 40 years in the desert as a punishment for their faithlessness.

 

[Josiah]

Especially since all of the firstborn adults (except Moses, Joshua and Kaleb) later died with the rest during the 40 years in the desert as a punishment for their faithlessness.

Friend, I think you missed the point..... These children were saved from the wrath of the Angel of Death ENTIRELY and EXCLUSIVELY because of the faith and obedience of their parents[/B[, of OTHERS. Whether it was an ETERNAL salvation or something more limited is not the point. The issue is: Faith and obedience of the PARENTS can (and in this case CLEARLY and UNDENIABLY did) result in blessings for their CHILDREN who did and had absolutely nothing.

Good to have you back.

 

[MennoSota]

Friend, I think you missed the point..... These children were saved from the wrath of the Angel of Death ENTIRELY and EXCLUSIVELY because of the faith and obedience of their parents[/B[, of OTHERS. Whether it was an ETERNAL salvation or something more limited is not the point. The issue is: Faith and obedience of the PARENTS can (and in this case CLEARLY and UNDENIABLY did) result in blessings for their CHILDREN who did and had absolutely nothing.

Good to have you back.

You are attempting to spiritualize the Passover and force it into your church dogma, Josiah.
The lesson in the Passover is that the people obey God’s command and God keeps his promise.
Your attempt to spiritualize the event and tie it into your church practices could easily lead you to teach that our salvation and that of our children come by following the command of God...which would eliminate grace as the means of redemption.

 

[Pedrito]

There is much conjecture regarding the identity of the Pharaoh at the time of the Exodus.

But there is one particular consideration of significance that I have never seen mentioned.

When God killed all the firstborn in Egypt, Pharaoh remained alive.

Therefore he was not a firstborn.

Ergo, all Pharaohs that were firstborns can be struck off the list of potentials.

And, since the cream of the Egyptian armed forces – the feared chariot force – was largely destroyed, Egypt was defenceless and an invasion would have followed – creating a new dynasty.

That should narrow things down somewhat.

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In Post #4 it was stated:

Egyptian families were graciously spared as they followed God's instructions rather than the gods of Egypt.

However, the instruction regarding placing blood around the door was given to the descendants of Jacob (Israel) alone, not to the Egyptians. The whole purpose of the final plague was to strike Egyptians. And Exodus 12:30 tells us: ...and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.

 

[Josiah]

Friend, I think you missed the point..... These children were saved from the wrath of the Angel of Death ENTIRELY and EXCLUSIVELY because of the faith and obedience of their parents, of OTHERS. Whether it was an ETERNAL salvation or something more limited is not the point.

The issue is: Faith and obedience of the PARENTS can (and in this case CLEARLY and UNDENIABLY did) result in enormous blessings for their CHILDREN (of all ages) who did and had absolutely nothing.


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You are attempting to spiritualize the Passover and force it into your church dogma, Josiah.

I'm accepting it as Scripture states it. I'm not "spiritualizing" it, I'm accepting it.


God SAVED THE LIVES of CHILDREN (regardless of age, intelligence, knowledge, etc.), children who evidently did, felt, said, accomplished absolutely NOTHING WHATSOEVER. He saved their lives because of the faith and obedience and actions of OTHERS, their parents.


IMO, this shows that God can (and undeniably in this case) enormously bless CHILDREN - via the faith and obedience of their PARENTS. IMO, those who foundationally, dogmatically INSIST this is impossible and doesn't happen have a problem with this (and many other) Scriptures. The argument is simply unbiblical.




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[MennoSota]

I'm accepting it as Scripture states it. I'm not "spiritualizing" it, I'm accepting it.


God SAVED THE LIVES of CHILDREN (regardless of age, intelligence, knowledge, etc.), children who evidently did, felt, said, accomplished absolutely NOTHING WHATSOEVER. He saved their lives because of the faith and obedience and actions of OTHERS, their parents.

God saved the lives of those specific children from immediate death because the parents obeyed God's command.
Those same children died in the wilderness because of their lack of faith. Joshua and Caleb died in the land of Canaan. Everyone died eventually.

IMO, this shows that God can (and undeniably in this case) enormously bless CHILDREN - via the faith and obedience of their PARENTS. IMO, those who foundationally, dogmatically INSIST this is impossible and doesn't happen have a problem with this (and many other) Scriptures. The argument is simply unbiblical.

God promised in that specific incident to spare the first born if the people obeyed his command.
That is as far as the connection goes, Josiah. Anything beyond that is your added opinion. Today you can observe many families where the parents have been faithful, yet the children die in their sins.
God will be gracious to whom He wills.