The Lack of Emphasis on Others Honoring Mary By Jesus

[Pilgrim]

There is a lack of emphasis on honoring Mary by Jesus.

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. ~ KJV

Jesus deferred the woman from honoring Mary to hearing the word of God & keep it. Again, Jesus defers from His mother & even brethren by saying Who His mother & brethren & sisters are by those do the will of His Father in Heaven.

Matthew 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. ~ KJV

So who hears the word of God that keeps it in doing the will of the Father in Heaven? Note how this judgment is over every believer in the verses below.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: ~ KJV

Verse 22 is the emphasis on how God will judge per the judgment in the next verse below.

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. ~ KJV

So if a saved believer honors Mary, then they are not honoring the Father because they are not honoring the Son. Hearing the word of God & keeping it is by doing the will of the Father in Heaven by doing the only way to honor the Father is by only honoring the Son.

That means to honor the Father is by only honoring the Son; not Mary, not the departed saints, & not even the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is honoring the Son too by testifying of the Son to give glory to the Son & He does that through us which has to include worship & not just outreach ministry.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. ~ KJV

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. ~ KJV

So ask yourself; Whom would Mary & the departed saints honor? The Lord Jesus Christ since they wished to honor God the Father.

Who would the Holy Spirit would lead us to honor? The Lord Jesus Christ since He is to testify of the Son to glorify the Son & thereby the Father as well.

Only God can grant wisdom & understanding in the reading of His words so go before that throne of grace & ask Jesus for wisdom.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ~ KJV

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me..... 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. ~ KJV

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; ~ KJV

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. ~ KJV

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us. ~ KJV

 

[Josiah]

The hatred of Catholicism and Catholics is a tragic part of Western history.....

For the past 500 years, for some Protestants, if Catholics believe or do something, it's just gotta be bad and must be ridiculed and condemned.

It's profoundly silly.... They worship, they accept (at least) 66 Books as Scripture, they pray the Lord's Prayer (well, some do), they accept the Apostles and Nicene Creeds (well, some Protestants do), they worship on Sundays.... they accept the Trinity (well, some Protestants do), the Two Natures of Christ (well, some do).... ALL CATHOLIC BELIEFS AND PRACTICES, yet insist that what is Catholic ergo is bad and wrong.

Luther, Calvin, Wesley.... indeed pretty much every Protestant 250 years ago held Mary in very high esteem, with a robust Marian devotion. They called her "Our Lady" they referred to her as "The Mother of God" and they celebrated feast days in her honor. But as anti-Catholicism raged, especially in the USA and in parts of Ireland and elsewhere, Protestants began to condemn this as "Catholic" (the same thing happened to the Crucifix, to doing the Sign of the Cross, even at times to frequent celebration of Communion). It's silly. I rejoice that as anti-Catholicism declines among Protestants, a lot of this very, very selective repudiation of some practices will also decline; indeed, we are beginning to see more and more Protestants accepting the Crucifix, the Sign, weekly Communion.


Josiah




.

 

[Lamb]

@Pilgrim , are you using the term "honor" as being synonymous with "worship"?

 

[Pilgrim]

@Pilgrim , are you using the term "honor" as being synonymous with "worship"?

In how Jesus is referring honor to mean in regards to God the Father in hearing His words & keeping it as well as doing the will of the Father which is to only honor the Son as led by the Spirit of God in us & scripture to do, yes. No one else is to be in that spotlight.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? ~ KJV

 

[Lamb]

In how Jesus is referring honor to mean in regards to God the Father in hearing His words & keeping it as well as doing the will of the Father which is to only honor the Son as led by the Spirit of God in us & scripture to do, yes. No one else is to be in that spotlight.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? ~ KJV

Could you rephrase your definition of honor please? You haven't really stated what it means.

 

[Pilgrim]

Could you rephrase your definition of honor please? You haven't really stated what it means.

Well, I thought I did in regards to what Jesus meant in relating to God at all & with scripture too. But maybe I need to show how I applied that to mean.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? ~ KJV

I see that as honoring God by heeding His words & not man's words or the church's words when they are not align with His words at all. By honoring His words, then we honor Jesus & thus seek the honor that comes from God only rather than receiving honor from one another.

So the honor among men is to be deferred when that honor is to be given to Jesus Christ & His words.

The irony is Mary does not seek any honor from men. In setting the examples for others, she would seek to honor the Son as well. We can know this by the example John the Baptist has given.

John 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. ~ KJV

Paul said this as well.

2 Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. ~ KJV

Nowhere in any epistles to the churches was there any mention of the practice of honoring Mary at all or any of His disciples. In fat, Paul was given a thorn in the flesh so believers would not think of him higher than they ought to think.

2 Corinthians 12: 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. 11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. ~ KJV

Paul confirms this debasement here earlier.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. ~ KJV

Now this is about where our focus in our relationship with God in honoring.

There is honoring those who have authority over us because they are looking out for us, but if they are not submitting to the Word of God which is where their authority comes from, then we are free not to submit because the head of every believer is Christ, the Word of God.

Maybe it would be best if I ask you what you think the definition of honor is in general?

Then I ask you if it is the same kind of honor Jesus is talking about in relating to God per the scripture?

 

[Lamb]

Maybe it would be best if I ask you what you think the definition of honor is in general?

Then I ask you if it is the same kind of honor Jesus is talking about in relating to God per the scripture?

In the dictionary "honor" is defined as: high respect; great esteem.

Your definition doesn't seem to correlate with that.

 

[Pilgrim]

In the dictionary "honor" is defined as: high respect; great esteem.

Your definition doesn't seem to correlate with that.

Then apply it to what Jesus said below since it is about Jesus deferring honor from Mary to hearing & doing the word of God & thus the will of the Father.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? ~ KJV

If you consider what it means to honor Mary, those who do honor Mary, are not coming to the Son when they do that, thereby dishonoring Him when they place that high respect & great esteem on Mary instead as if honoring Mary pleases God the Father.

 

[Josiah]

In the dictionary "honor" is defined as: high respect; great esteem.

Your definition doesn't seem to correlate with that.

The Bible says all are to HONOR their father and mother. But I guess that Commandment is wrong since "honor" means to give others the position of God.


I know of NO ONE who remotely suggests that Mary is equal to God or to be held in the same esteem as God. This is a bit of absurd, baseless, Anti-Catholicism. I've heard it from Seventh-Day Adventist and some modern "Evangelicals" but it's just silly. And wrong.



.

 

[Pilgrim]

The Bible says all are to HONOR their father and mother. But I guess that Commandment is wrong since "honor" means to give others the position of God.


I know of NO ONE who remotely suggests that Mary is equal to God or to be held in the same esteem as God. This is a bit of absurd, baseless, Anti-Catholicism. I've heard it from Seventh-Day Adventist and some modern "Evangelicals" but it's just silly. And wrong.

That prophet Muhammud of Islam came across a cult that believed the "Trinity" was made up of the Father, Mary, & Jesus for why he felt led to reprove such notion in his writings.

Some faction of this cult must have been absorbed into Catholicism, since Mary is called as the "Queen of Heaven". Since Mary knew the scripture, I believe she would take offense to the title being given to her in the very least.

Only God answers prayers, therefore prayers are to be submitted to God; hence the Lord Jesus Christ, the only Mediator between God & men. It is by Him in His name, that believers can pray to God the Father by since Jesus really is the only way..

Trying to obscure that fact as if making a request for intercessions from the departed Mary & the patron saints is the same as asking someone alive down here is just a plain lie.

Since there are plenty of evidences that there are saved believers that err by remotely suggesting that Mary is equal to God or to be held in the same esteem as God, then we can see why Jesus bothered to defer believers from honoring Mary in worship or anywhere in relating to God by.

So we have to agree to disagree.

 

[Lamb]

That prophet Muhammud of Islam came across a cult that believed the "Trinity" was made up of the Father, Mary, & Jesus for why he felt led to reprove such notion in his writings.

Some faction of this cult must have been absorbed into Catholicism, since Mary is called as the "Queen of Heaven". Since Mary knew the scripture, I believe she would take offense to the title being given to her in the very least.

Only God answers prayers, therefore prayers are to be submitted to God; hence the Lord Jesus Christ, the only Mediator between God & men. It is by Him in His name, that believers can pray to God the Father by since Jesus really is the only way..

Trying to obscure that fact as if making a request for intercessions from the departed Mary & the patron saints is the same as asking someone alive down here is just a plain lie.

Since there are plenty of evidences that there are saved believers that err by remotely suggesting that Mary is equal to God or to be held in the same esteem as God, then we can see why Jesus bothered to defer believers from honoring Mary in worship or anywhere in relating to God by.

So we have to agree to disagree.

From what you have said you have given the term honor a different definition. @Josiah even brought up the fact that God tells us to Honor our fathers and mothers Exodus 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

 

[Pilgrim]

From what you have said you have given the term honor a different definition. @Josiah even brought up the fact that God tells us to Honor our fathers and mothers Exodus 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

Understood, but the scripture in the Old Testament also said to keep the sabbath day whereas Matthew 12:1-7 in the New Testament explains why we are now guiltless for profaning the sabbath day.

So the Jews honored God by honoring their father & mother in the Old Testament, BUT Christ Jesus is asking us to honor God over honoring our father & mother when honoring Him.

Can you honor your father & mother to stay behind with them to care for them in their distress when judgment is coming on the earth?

Luke 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. 34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? 35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. ~ KJV

If you are not certain that is applied to the rapture event, then see how the cares of life can be a snare for why believers will stay behind.

The verses below preceded the verses above as being in the same chapter & Jesus is talking about the same thing; the rapture.

Luke 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. 16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: 17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. 18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. 19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. 20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. 21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. 22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper. ~ KJV

What do you believe is the honor that comes from God only in relation to how we honor men that Jesus is talking about below?

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? ~ KJV

 

[rstrats]

As far as scripture is concerned, there are only 3 times mentioned where the Messiah spoke to Mary. And He seemed to be a bit perturbed with her 2 of those times. The 3rd time He merely told her to look at her son.

Also, He only spoke 2 times with regard to what someone said about her and again His response couldn't be considered very flattering.

I think it also interesting that Mary is not mentioned by any of the writers in the New Testament epistles including the one to the church at Rome and the two epistles by Peter.

 

[Lamb]

Understood, but the scripture in the Old Testament also said to keep the sabbath day whereas Matthew 12:1-7 in the New Testament explains why we are now guiltless for profaning the sabbath day.

So the Jews honored God by honoring their father & mother in the Old Testament, BUT Christ Jesus is asking us to honor God over honoring our father & mother when honoring Him.

Can you honor your father & mother to stay behind with them to care for them in their distress when judgment is coming on the earth?

Luke 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. 34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? 35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. ~ KJV

If you are not certain that is applied to the rapture event, then see how the cares of life can be a snare for why believers will stay behind.

The verses below preceded the verses above as being in the same chapter & Jesus is talking about the same thing; the rapture.

Luke 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. 16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: 17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. 18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. 19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. 20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. 21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. 22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper. ~ KJV

What do you believe is the honor that comes from God only in relation to how we honor men that Jesus is talking about below?

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? ~ KJV

What Christians honor their parents above God? You are making a lot of claims here. Baseless ones.

 

[Josiah]

Some faction of this cult must have been absorbed into Catholicism, since Mary is called as the "Queen of Heaven".

The title of "Queen of Heaven" has nothing - absolutely nothing whatsoever - to do with Mary being divine. In the ancient world, the MOTHER of a king was referred to as the "QUEEN." MOTHER. Is Mary the mother of the King of kings, the King of Heaven (indeed, King of all)? If you say "no" then you are correct to not use the term "Queen of Heaven" for Mary. But if you hold that Jesus is the King of all, then it is right and good to call Her "Queen of Heaven."

This common bit of modern Anti-Catholicism (typically, this one comes from Seventh Day Adventists) is just wrong... based on ignorance... and reveals that those who spread this lie never ever bothered to check it out, to ask a Catholic, they just mindlessly spread the (ignorant, wrong) gossip. Which is, of course, a sin.


SAD we don't have an active, informed Catholic at CH..... SAD a former Catholic like me needs to rise up and correct Anti-Catholicism and Catholic hate speech.

Only God answers prayers, therefore prayers are to be submitted to God; hence the Lord Jesus Christ, the only Mediator between God & men. It is by Him in His name, that believers can pray to God the Father by since Jesus really is the only way..

Correct. As Catholicism teaches. Now, Catholicism holds that we MAY ask Mary to pray FOR us (as I can ask you to pray for me), and I don't deny that SOME Catholics seem to believe MARY can answer those prayers (although this is contrary to Catholic teaching). But just because Mary can pray does not make her God.... anymore that just because you can pray makes you "God."

Modern Catholicism holds that Mary is the CO-Redeemer, that her giving birth to the Redeemer involved her in Redemption and her pain in seeing Jesus die is part of the agony of Redeption. I don't fully agree with this, BUT it must be noted that Catholicism does NOT - NOT - regard Mary as The Mediator or The Redeemer, only that by giving birth to Jesus and weeping with him means she's a participant.

Where is MoreCoffee when we need him?

remotely suggesting that Mary is equal to God or to be held in the same esteem as God,

No one does.


Before you spread really old Anti-Catholic gossip, bother to check it out. Gossip is a sin, you know.




.