THE GOSPEL

[Doug]

This is the gospel by which we are saved.

15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1 Corinthians 15

We are all sinners who can not save ourselves.

Christ died for our sins; He was our substitute, He paid the full penalty and debt for our sin by his blood sacrifice.

He was buried.

He rose again for our justification ( to declare us righteous) and forgiveness of all our sin. He gives us His righteousness and eternal life.

All we have to do is believe the gospel.

Believing is being persuaded that something is true.

The moment you believe you have eternal life.

Trust the gospel of your salvation. Place your faith in Jesus Christ, in his blood, his death and his resurrection.

 

[Josiah]

Amen! And of course, even the faith is God's gift. Faith is trust/reliance (not to be confused with cognative understanding or assent - the Devil has that). All unregenerate need to be GIVEN life, need to be SAVED (not just helped or offered some opportunity), and God does it (not self - not now, not ever... not in part, not in whole). THAT is Good News... the best Good News....

 

[MoreCoffee]

This is the gospel by which we are saved.

15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

You left out a verse. Here it is.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By the Gospel, too, you are being saved, if you hold to the understanding that I preached to you, lest you believe in vain.

15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1 Corinthians 15

We are all sinners who can not save ourselves.

1Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say that "we are all sinners who cannot save ourselves"

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.

Christ died for our sins; He was our substitute, He paid the full penalty and debt for our sin by his blood sacrifice.

1Corinthians 15:3 does say that "Christ died for our sins" but

it does not say "He was our substitute" and

it does not say "He paid the full penalty and debt for our sin" and

it does not say "by his blood sacrifice"

You must find other passages from which you may derive those teachings.

He was buried.

1Corinthians 15:4 does say "he was buried"

He rose again for our justification ( to declare us righteous) and forgiveness of all our sin. He gives us His righteousness and eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say "He rose again for out justification"

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say "and forgiveness for all our sin"

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say "He gives us His righteousness and eternal life."

You must find other passages from which you may derive those teachings.

All we have to do is believe the gospel.

1Corinthians does not say "all we have to do is believe the gospel"

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.

Believing is being persuaded that something is true.

The kind of believing that is associated with being saved may be a little bit more than "being persuaded that something is true", do not you agree?

The moment you believe you have eternal life.

The moment one is in Christ one has eternal life because eternal life is the life of Christ which one has by being in Christ.

Being in Christ is explained in Romans 6:1-11.

Trust the gospel of your salvation. Place your faith in Jesus Christ, in his blood, his death and his resurrection.

That is good advice. Even better is the advice that saint Paul gives

1 Corinthians 15:33-34 Do not be deceived: 'Bad company ruins good morals.' [SUP]34[/SUP] Come to a sober and right mind, and sin no more; for some people have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.

 

[Josiah]

HERE'S THE PROBLEM..... THIS IS WHY WE GET NOWHERE ON THIS TOPIC


In my 18 years of having this discussion.... and as can be seen SO obviously in forums of CF, CA, etc..... some Protestant posts the Jesus is the Savior and does the saving (even just an implication of such will do)... and POW, the non-Protestants jump in, very passionately, to debate, argue, disagree. It's usually very unclear WHAT specifically they so strongly disagree with but boy, do they!!! They will go on for pages, sometimes hundreds of pages debating that, arguing against that, protesting that! Everyone knows how true that is.


Some Protestants make it crystal clear what (precisely) they mean by "salvation" but it does no good; even if what Protestants state is EXACTLY what some Catholics say (SOME Catholics: it's initial grace in justification! Protestants: It's grace in initial justification) - it's just useless, because there is a "knee-jerk" protest (loud and amazingly persistent) to any protestant even implying that God does the saving (not self).


Of course, this IS the Catholic/Protestant divide. BOTH the RCC and Lutherans (and later Calvinists) stated THIS was the "deal breaker", THE issue at the very heart of the "split". There were other issues (infallible RCC bishop in Rome, etc.) but all those paled in comparison and perhaps were not "deal breakers" (lots of Catholics disagreed with these) THE issue was justification (in a very specific, very well defined sense). THIS very, very specific issue IS the divide in western Christianity, and has been for 500 years and counting.


In Catholicism, the foundational issue is the power - authority - infallibility - lordship of that specific, individual, unique denomination and ERGO they will defend their unique denomination (at least on formal dogma) no matter what: what is at stake is the lordship/authority of the RCC, the very denomination itself! In Protestantism, the foundation is the Gospel, the central point is not the divine power and control of one's denomination but the Savior Jesus Christ, and with a passion equal to the Catholics, they will defend that Gospel against any threat, anything that endangers it. The Catholic must defend his denomination.... the Protestant must defend his Savior.... both with equal passion. And it's been EXACTLY that since 1517 (or at least 1521). Thus, Protestants speak of the Gospel and Catholics of their individual denomination...... Protestants defend the Gospel above all while Catholics do all they can to belittle it; meanwhile Catholics defend the power/lordship/infallibility of their denomination while Protestants do all they can to belittle that.


Yes, the divide stems from different "starting points." Protestants tend to be monergists, holding to a BIG Savior for those who must be saved. Modern Catholics (for the past 500 years anyway) tend to be Pelagian synergists holding that we are little sinners who just need an opportunity and some divine help ("He who sees himself a little sinner will embrace a little savior). BUT (and I've made this point often with no non-Protestant agreeing with me), the Means of Grace exists fully in the RCC and is constantly present in the RCC and His Word does not return to God void, so I am fully convinced that Catholics (as generally as is true in Protestantism) DO have faith and DO believe in Jesus as their SAVIOR (not just helper, not just door-opener, not just offerer) it's just that their denomination's confusion has become theirs. IF you an help the Catholic "untangle" the MESS they have been fed, you'll find faith (and an amazingly LUTHERAN theology on this point!). I KNOW it. It is my own experience (and that of many Catholics - I've witnessed it repeatedly). But radical Catholics, focused only on being absolutely docilic toward their singular denomination, with defending their unique denomination NO MATTER WHAT. But, some of us keep trying....



Thus, round and round we go.... as everyone witnesses..... over and over and over. Endlessly. It's been going on for 5 centuries now...


There is NOTHING in all the universe Christians SHOULD be clearer on and should agree on more than this. But the reality is the opposite: THIS is the issue that (more than any other) divides us. SOME of us lament that and TRY to do something about it (if only on a personal, one-on-one level) but in my 18 years.... well.....



Lord, have mercy on us.



- Josiah



.

 

[MoreCoffee]

HERE'S THE PROBLEM..... HERE'S THE DEAL...

No, that is not "the problem" nor "the deal".

And why did you cross post the same stuff in another thread?

 

[Lamb]

No, that is not "the problem" nor "the deal".

And why did you cross post the same stuff in another thread?

Probably because this thread is in the Bible Study forum where debate isn't allowed

 

[Doug]

You left out a verse. Here it is.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By the Gospel, too, you are being saved, if you hold to the understanding that I preached to you, lest you believe in vain.

I understand this verse above as being, saved refers to deliverance from false doctrine, specifically in context here, in regard to error being taught about the resurrection.


1Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say that "we are all sinners who cannot save ourselves"

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.
We are all sinners Romans 3:23
We cant save ourselves Titus 3:5 Romans 5:6



1Corinthians 15:3 does say that "Christ died for our sins" but

it does not say "He was our substitute" and
See 2 Corinthians 5:21

it does not say "He paid the full penalty and debt for our sin" and See Romans 6:23 Romans 3:24

it does not say "by his blood sacrifice" See Romans 3:25 Romans 3:26

You must find other passages from which you may derive those teachings.

1Corinthians 15:4 does say "he was buried"

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say "He rose again for out justification"
See Romans 4:25

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say "and forgiveness for all our sin"
See Ephesians 1:7

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say "He gives us His righteousness and eternal life."
See Romans 4:22 Romans 4:23 Romans 4:24 1 Corinthians 1:30

You must find other passages from which you may derive those teachings.

1Corinthians does not say "all we have to do is believe the gospel"
See Romans 4:5 1 Corinthians 1:21 Ephesians 1:13

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.

The kind of believing that is associated with being saved may be a little bit more than "being persuaded that something is true", do not you agree?
See Romans 4:21 Also it read,Trust the gospel of your salvation. Place your faith in Jesus Christ, in his blood, his death and his resurrection.



The moment one is in Christ one has eternal life because eternal life is the life of Christ which one has by being in Christ.

Being in Christ is explained in Romans 6:1-11.



That is good advice. Even better is the advice that saint Paul gives

1 Corinthians 15:33-34 Do not be deceived: 'Bad company ruins good morals.' [SUP]34[/SUP] Come to a sober and right mind, and sin no more; for some people have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.[/QUOTE]

Thanks

 

[Doug]

You left out a verse. Here it is.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By the Gospel, too, you are being saved, if you hold to the understanding that I preached to you, lest you believe in vain.

I understand this verse above as being, saved refers to deliverance from false doctrine, specifically in context here, in regard to error being taught about the resurrection.


1Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say that "we are all sinners who cannot save ourselves"

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.
We are all sinners Romans 3:23
We cant save ourselves Titus 3:5 Romans 5:6



1Corinthians 15:3 does say that "Christ died for our sins" but

it does not say "He was our substitute" and
See 2 Corinthians 5:21

it does not say "He paid the full penalty and debt for our sin" and See Romans 6:23 Romans 3:24

it does not say "by his blood sacrifice" See Romans 3:25 Romans 3:26

You must find other passages from which you may derive those teachings.

1Corinthians 15:4 does say "he was buried"

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say "He rose again for out justification"
See Romans 4:25

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say "and forgiveness for all our sin"
See Ephesians 1:7

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say "He gives us His righteousness and eternal life."
See Romans 4:22 Romans 4:23 Romans 4:24 1 Corinthians 1:30

You must find other passages from which you may derive those teachings.

1Corinthians does not say "all we have to do is believe the gospel"
See Romans 4:5 1 Corinthians 1:21 Ephesians 1:13

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.

The kind of believing that is associated with being saved may be a little bit more than "being persuaded that something is true", do not you agree?
See Romans 4:21 Also it read,Trust the gospel of your salvation. Place your faith in Jesus Christ, in his blood, his death and his resurrection.



The moment one is in Christ one has eternal life because eternal life is the life of Christ which one has by being in Christ.

Being in Christ is explained in Romans 6:1-11.



That is good advice. Even better is the advice that saint Paul gives

1 Corinthians 15:33-34 Do not be deceived: 'Bad company ruins good morals.' [SUP]34[/SUP] Come to a sober and right mind, and sin no more; for some people have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.

Thanks[/QUOTE]

 

[Doug]

I had trouble posting reply please see my quick replies

You left out a verse. Here it is.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By the Gospel, too, you are being saved, if you hold to the understanding that I preached to you, lest you believe in vain.

1Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say that "we are all sinners who cannot save ourselves"

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.

1Corinthians 15:3 does say that "Christ died for our sins" but

it does not say "He was our substitute" and

it does not say "He paid the full penalty and debt for our sin" and

it does not say "by his blood sacrifice"

You must find other passages from which you may derive those teachings.

1Corinthians 15:4 does say "he was buried"

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say "He rose again for out justification"

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say "and forgiveness for all our sin"

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say "He gives us His righteousness and eternal life."

You must find other passages from which you may derive those teachings.

1Corinthians does not say "all we have to do is believe the gospel"

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.

The kind of believing that is associated with being saved may be a little bit more than "being persuaded that something is true", do not you agree?

The moment one is in Christ one has eternal life because eternal life is the life of Christ which one has by being in Christ.

Being in Christ is explained in Romans 6:1-11.



That is good advice. Even better is the advice that saint Paul gives

1 Corinthians 15:33-34 Do not be deceived: 'Bad company ruins good morals.' [SUP]34[/SUP] Come to a sober and right mind, and sin no more; for some people have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I had trouble posting reply please see my quick replies

I see that you've written several replies. Some appear to be mixes of material from my post and material that you have written. It is not easy to see what you intend to say. Would you offer a summary?

 

[MoreCoffee]

You left out a verse. Here it is.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By the Gospel, too, you are being saved, if you hold to the understanding that I preached to you, lest you believe in vain.

I understand this verse above as being, saved refers to deliverance from false doctrine, specifically in context here, in regard to error being taught about the resurrection.

1Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say that "we are all sinners who cannot save ourselves"

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.

We are all sinners Romans 3:23
We cant save ourselves Titus 3:5 Romans 5:6

1Corinthians 15:3 does say that "Christ died for our sins" but

it does not say "He was our substitute" and

See 2 Corinthians 5:21

it does not say "He paid the full penalty and debt for our sin" and

See Romans 6:23 Romans 3:24

it does not say "by his blood sacrifice"

See Romans 3:25 Romans 3:26

You must find other passages from which you may derive those teachings.

1Corinthians 15:4 does say "he was buried"

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say "He rose again for out justification"

See Romans 4:25

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say "and forgiveness for all our sin"

See Ephesians 1:7

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not say "He gives us His righteousness and eternal life."

See Romans 4:22 Romans 4:23 Romans 4:24 1 Corinthians 1:30

You must find other passages from which you may derive those teachings.

1Corinthians does not say "all we have to do is believe the gospel"

See Romans 4:5 1 Corinthians 1:21 Ephesians 1:13

You must find other passages from which you may derive that teaching.

The kind of believing that is associated with being saved may be a little bit more than "being persuaded that something is true", do not you agree?

See Romans 4:21 Also it read,Trust the gospel of your salvation. Place your faith in Jesus Christ, in his blood, his death and his resurrection.



The moment one is in Christ one has eternal life because eternal life is the life of Christ which one has by being in Christ.

Being in Christ is explained in Romans 6:1-11.

That is good advice. Even better is the advice that saint Paul gives

1 Corinthians 15:33-34 Do not be deceived: 'Bad company ruins good morals.' [SUP]34[/SUP] Come to a sober and right mind, and sin no more; for some people have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.

Thanks

The above is the best I could do to separate out your comments from my post.