The Gospel is a means of grace

[Lamb]

I wonder how many agree with the statement The Gospel is a means of grace? What I mean by that is The gospel is the means through which the Spirit pours out God’s grace on individuals.

 

[Tigger]

Amen!

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Josiah]

God CAN use the Word..... Of course, He's not LIMITED to that (I hate to tell God what He cannot do.... seems profoundly foolish on the face of it). I think of John the Baptist who was brought to faith before he was born, while still in his mother's womb.... God doesn't NEED anything but He nearly always USES things. The great emphasis in the Great Commission ("Go... Baptize.... Teach....") is among the many places that points to these Means, these Tools.

But yes, God TYPICALLY uses means. "Tools in the hands of the Carpenter." He doesn't HAVE to, but He seems to nearly always do. These tools are impotent on their own, but placed in the hands of the Carpenter - and miracles can happen!!!!

 

[MennoSota]

I wonder how many agree with the statement The Gospel is a means of grace? What I mean by that is The gospel is the means through which the Spirit pours out God’s grace on individuals.

The gospel is the presentation of the good news that God has died for sinners and has risen to confirm payment.
It is not a means of grace.
God alone is the means of Grace. God alone chooses to whom he will be gracious and to whom He will not.
If there were another means outside of God then Jesus was a liar when he said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
To claim that the gospel (good news) is a means of grace is to make an idol of the gospel and worship it as a god. Such a thing is anathema.

 

[Josiah]

The gospel is the presentation of the good news that God has died for sinners and has risen to confirm payment.
It is not a means of grace.

This "fits" with your theology... But again, I find myself disagreeing with you, my friend.

Just as I don't agree that God is rendered impotent by one under the age of X or the IQ of X, just as I don't think God is rendered impotent by water (wet water), so I don't think God is rendered impotent by the teaching of His Gospel. While I agree with you that God CAN give faith entirely by fiat (in a complete, total vacuum with no means or human activity involved) - we have one example of that in the Bible, John the Baptist - I don't agree that is the ONLY way God is able to bless or give life, I don't agree that Means or human activity renders God impotent and therefore is to be avoided.


I don't agree that Jesus' Great Commission is "idolatry" because it calls on human activity and the means of teaching and baptizing. I don't agree with you that pastors, evangelists, missionaries, even Sunday School teachers and choirs are practicing "idolatry" because there's human activity and MEANS involved as they work to share the Good News. In fact, I actually believe God CAN use those activities and means for His purposes - which might be why He commands it.



- Josiah

 

[MennoSota]

This "fits" with your theology... But again, I find myself disagreeing with you, my friend.

Just as I don't agree that God is rendered impotent by one under the age of X or the IQ of X, just as I don't think God is rendered impotent by water (wet water), so I don't think God is rendered impotent by the teaching of His Gospel. While I agree with you that God CAN give faith entirely by fiat (in a complete, total vacuum with no means or human activity involved) - we have one example of that in the Bible, John the Baptist - I don't agree that is the ONLY way God is able to bless or give life, I don't agree that Means or human activity renders God impotent and therefore is to be avoided.


I don't agree that Jesus' Great Commission is "idolatry" because it calls on human activity and the means of teaching and baptizing. I don't agree with you that pastors, evangelists, missionaries, even Sunday School teachers and choirs are practicing "idolatry" because there's human activity and MEANS involved as they work to share the Good News. In fact, I actually believe God CAN use those activities and means for His purposes - which might be why He commands it.



- Josiah

If we make something else, other than God, a means of grace, what have we turned that object or concept into? Answer: We have turned it into an idol. Example: Moses serpent staff became an idol that Israel worshipped. King Josiah had to destroy it.

God may choose to extend saving grace when someone listens to the gospel message. God may choose to extend saving grace when a person is fearing for their life. God may choose to extend saving grace when a terrorist is on the road to Damascus. God may choose to extend saving grace when a person is tripping on acid (LSD). God may choose to extend saving grace at any time. Buy, the means of grace is ALWAYS God choosing to extend grace as He wills. Nothing and no one can force him to extend grace. There is never any obligation upon God to extend grace because of what a person does or doesn't do. This is because...God is Sovereign.

 

[psalms 91]

Why oh why do people break things down into a small part and ignore the whole? Grace is important, so is justice and law. Love is important but so is judgement. Mans place in salvation is also important although there are those here who disagree. A shame when you cant see the forest for the trees

 

[Josiah]

Why oh why do people break things down into a small part and ignore the whole? Grace is important, so is justice and law. Love is important but so is judgement. Mans place in salvation is also important although there are those here who disagree. A shame when you cant see the forest for the trees

The problem is that the entirety of Christianity is in that distinction.....

If self is the Savior.... perhaps by performing the good work of deciding for Him or performing X number of good works - then Jesus is not the Savior, self is; the Cross isn't the instrument of salvation what self does is. Friend, there are only two places one can look: the Cross or the Mirror. Either Jesus saves or self saves. The first is Christianity, the second is every other religion on the planet. So the entire issue is this distinction - is Jesus the Savior or is self, it is Jesus' works that justify or my works? It's what makes you a Christian or a Hindu/Buddhist/Shinto/Muslim... and in my opinion, what leads to heaven or hell. I think that's important.

But we are WAY, WAY off topic..... The issue here is whether the Gospel Message can be used by God as a means by which He gives faith/life/justification... or not.



- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

This "fits" with your theology... But again, I find myself disagreeing with you, my friend.

Just as I don't agree that God is rendered impotent by one under the age of X or the IQ of X, just as I don't think God is rendered impotent by water (wet water), so I don't think God is rendered impotent by the teaching of His Gospel. While I agree with you that God CAN give faith entirely by fiat (in a complete, total vacuum with no means or human activity involved) - we have one example of that in the Bible, John the Baptist - I don't agree that is the ONLY way God is able to bless or give life, I don't agree that Means or human activity renders God impotent and therefore is to be avoided.


I don't agree that Jesus' Great Commission is "idolatry" because it calls on human activity and the means of teaching and baptizing. I don't agree with you that pastors, evangelists, missionaries, even Sunday School teachers and choirs are practicing "idolatry" because there's human activity and MEANS involved as they work to share the Good News. In fact, I actually believe God CAN use those activities and means for His purposes - which might be why He commands it.



.

If we make something else, other than God, a means of grace, what have we turned that object or concept into? Answer: We have turned it into an idol.

... thus my post. Did you read it?

So, you have made your parents, your Sunday School teachers, your pastors all idolators guilty of rendering God impotent to save you.

God may choose to extend saving grace when someone listens to the gospel message

Friend, that IS what a "Means of Grace" is. God using some tool in order to grant His blessings. And friend, sharing the gospel IS a human activity (work) and listing to the Gospel IS a human activity (work). Thus, you just contradicted yourself, destroyed your whole point, and are now agreeing with Lamm and me and others. When you make up your mind on this point, let us know.

Nothing and no one can force him to extend grace

Quote me where I said He did. It's you that goes on and on and on ... in thread after thread.... about what God cannot and will not do (always proclaimed by you in dogmatic absolutes).

You seem to believe you can force Him NOT to extend grace.... you've been telling Him for a long time He cannot use Baptism , He cannot use anything if human activity is involved..... He cannot use anything unless there is a clear example of Him doing so recorded in the Bible.... He cannot use anything if someone is below the age of X..... all the God cannots have come from you.

God is Sovereign.

... and yet it's you SO fixated on what God cannot and will not do, that God can't do anything He's not "obligated" to do, God cannot use water or the Word, God cannot bless those under the age of X, God goes on and on and on about the importance of Baptism but God can't do anything with it.


I've NOT said, "I require God to do x,y,z." You'e the one going on and on about "I mandate God cannot do x,y,z." Which of us seems to believe in the soverignty of God?



- Josiah

 

[Lamb]

God may choose to extend saving grace when someone listens to the gospel message..

That is in agreement with what the poll question asks. The rest goes outside of what the question is asking so it is irrelevant to the conversation. Don't argue for the sake of arguing.

 

[Lamb]

Why oh why do people break things down into a small part and ignore the whole? Grace is important, so is justice and law. Love is important but so is judgement. Mans place in salvation is also important although there are those here who disagree. A shame when you cant see the forest for the trees

Bill, elsewhere on the site you stated that faith comes by hearing the Word of God. That scriptural verse is what the poll question is asking. So you agree with it?

 

[MennoSota]

That is in agreement with what the poll question asks. The rest goes outside of what the question is asking so it is irrelevant to the conversation. Don't argue for the sake of arguing.

This is a poll?
Sorry, Tapatalk doesn't show threads as polls.

 

[Lamb]

This is a poll?
Sorry, Tapatalk doesn't show threads as polls.

I didn't know that. Thanks for letting me know. We've had Tapatalk for over a year now and I know it doesn't show the Chat but had no idea it didn't show polls. argh. Kind of frustrating but we like how Taptalk brings in some new members. Sorry to go off topic here but I'm glad you let me know.

 

[psalms 91]

Bill, elsewhere on the site you stated that faith comes by hearing the Word of God. That scriptural verse is what the poll question is asking. So you agree with it?

I agree with that statement because the Word says so and is true. By preaching people become convicted and convinced of their need of a saviour

 

[atpollard]

The Gospel is a means of grace: What I mean by that is The gospel is the means through which the Spirit pours out God’s grace on individuals.

Gospel = “Good News” = Old English gōdspel, from gōd ‘good’ + spel ‘news, a story’.

Means = an action or system by which a result is brought about; a method.

Grace = the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

GRACE (the free and unmerited favor of God) is not the result of the ‘Good News’, Grace IS the Good News.

 

[MennoSota]

I agree with that statement because the Word says so and is true. By preaching people become convicted and convinced of their need of a saviour

How do the deaf hear? How do the blind see? How do the dead live?
God may certainly use the obedient sharing of the gospel, however, God is not constrained if words are not used. Was it Francis of Assisi who is alleged to say, "Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words."?
Blind Willie Johnson wrote a blues tune called, "Nobodies fault but mine." In it he says, "If I don't read my Bible today, nobodies fault but mine..."

 

[MennoSota]

Gospel = “Good News” = Old English gōdspel, from gōd ‘good’ + spel ‘news, a story’.

Means = an action or system by which a result is brought about; a method.

Grace = the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

GRACE (the free and unmerited favor of God) is not the result of the ‘Good News’, Grace IS the Good News.

Amen!

 

[psalms 91]

How do the deaf hear? How do the blind see? How do the dead live?
God may certainly use the obedient sharing of the gospel, however, God is not constrained if words are not used. Was it Francis of Assisi who is alleged to say, "Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words."?
Blind Willie Johnson wrote a blues tune called, "Nobodies fault but mine." In it he says, "If I don't read my Bible today, nobodies fault but mine..."

Agreed

 

[Lamb]

Gospel = “Good News” = Old English gōdspel, from gōd ‘good’ + spel ‘news, a story’.

Means = an action or system by which a result is brought about; a method.

Grace = the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

GRACE (the free and unmerited favor of God) is not the result of the ‘Good News’, Grace IS the Good News.

No one says that God's grace is the result of the Gospel? At least I didn't see it here in the thread.

 

[Josiah]

Gospel = “Good News” = Old English gōdspel, from gōd ‘good’ + spel ‘news, a story’.

Means = an action or system by which a result is brought about; a method.

Grace = the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

GRACE (the free and unmerited favor of God) is not the result of the ‘Good News’, Grace IS the Good News.

[MENTION=334]atpollard[/MENTION]


"Means of Grace" is a term used in classic/orthodox theology, by Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans as well as Reformed. It means some vehicle used by God in order bless a person - especially in terms of their justification and sanctification. As Lutherans often speak of them, they are "tools in the hands of the Carpenter."

The "Means" in and of itself, per se, is impotent. Like a hammer hanging on the wall of a carpenter's shop .... it is inanimate, impotent. BUT in the hands of the carpenter, it can be the means of some amazing things! In the same way, The Carpenter may use tools ("Means of Grace") to convey His grace, mercy, blessings, gifts. Does He HAVE to? Of course not (best not to tell God what He can't do!) - John the Baptist was given faith before he was even born, while still in the womb of Elizabeth. Jesus healed a man's servant without a word or anything, while the recipient was miles away. But He often uses tools. Lamm is thinking of verses such as "My word does not return to Me void but accomplishes all that I purpose" and "Faith comes by hearing."

No one here is saying that God CANNOT bliss by "fiat" (to use the word theologians use) - WITHOUT any Means of Grace - as likely was the case with the preborn John the Baptist. There may well be some person hidden in the jungles of the Philippines who have NEVER been contracted by modern civilization, NEVER heard about Jesus or God - yet has saving faith in Jesus Christ as his Savior at least equal to you and me (NO ONE is denying that possibility). But we don't see that often in Scripture or history.... and of course Jesus left us with PRECIOUS few direct commands for the Age of the Church, and one of them is to "GO..... BAPTIZE.... TEACH....." so He must consider Means important. And we have the example of Jesus and the Apostles, all of whom were ACTIVE (not just sitting on the sofa watching I Love Lucy reruns cuz God will do whatever He wants) and they used MEANS.

And classic/traditional/orthodox theology is NOT saying or remotely implying that by our using Means ergo dictates that the MEANS achieves the blessing. If a man builds a house using tools, it's still the man who built the house. In a few days, I'll be the dad to a little boy..... I can tell you there were MEANS in the granting of life, but you and I fully agree that the life of that boy is the whole, entire BLESSING of God: GOD did it but yes, means were involved.....

Friend, there is no conflict between monergism and accepting God often uses means..... It seems to ME some monergists are SO hyper that they end up directly contradicting Scripture (their extreme "logic" viewing some Scriptures as wrong and conflicting). There's no conflict. I will accept my son as a MIRACLE of God, who is the author and giver of life (physical and spiritual) that God 'knit' him in his mother's womb - yet we both know there was human activity and means involved that God used. Did he HAVE to? Ask Mary. DOES He often? Look at your children. Some need to back off the uber-logic, accept Scripture.... there's divine miracles....



- Josiah




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