The False Doctrine of Purgatory

[hobie]

We have this "doctrine" from the Roman Catholic Church....
'III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611'
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P2N.HTM

This is one of the false doctrines that led Martin Luther to take a stand against the Papacy. Purgatory as a doctrine teaches that a Christian's soul must burn in purgatory after death until all of their sins have been purged. To speed up the purging process, money could be paid to a priest so he could pray and have special masses for an earlier release, and much money was made with this doctrine. Purgatory is given as a way that no matter how sinful or unbelieving, when you die, you go to Purgatory and get things sorted out and finally get to heaven, so no acceptance of Christ is needed, you can buy your way in. But is it in the Bible, if you look it doesn’t show, so where did it come from. It comes as no surprise to see it is a corrupt pagan doctrine, which was allowed into the church.

This pagan idea began creeping into the church around the end of the sixth century, and it has no scriptural support. In fact, Jesus warned us about this pagan practice in Matthew 23:14 when He spoke of those who devoured widows houses and made long prayers for a pretence. Psalm 49:6-7 tells us that a person couldn't redeem a loved one, even if such a place did exist: "They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches; None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:"
Peter addresses this issue in Acts 8:20 when he says, "Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money." God's word is clearly against the doctrine of purgatory.

The Greeks, as in some measure the Egyptians before them, created myths of the afterlife which spread throughout the Hellenistic world, and even into words which were used when the Hebrew text was translated into the Greek. Scripture clearly rejects the Greek notion of the immortality of the soul disembodied from the here and now as spirit beings, and early Christians affirmed the resurrection of the body just as Lazuras was resurrected by Christ. So there is no place for a underworld depicted in Greek myths or place of cleansing by fire such as purgotary where spirit beings are left till they are ready to be reunited with God, it comes from other origins which we shall see.

Purgatory as a transitional condition has from many sources, a origin from the pagan belief of caring for the dead and praying for them, and to the belief that prayer for the dead contributed to their afterlife purification. Pagan tradition created this place of purgatory which leaves hope after death for the wicked, who, at the time of their death, are unrepentant and cling to their love of sin.

In Egypt, substantially the same doctrine of purgatory was taught as in modern times and its priests created grand funerals and masses for the dead, along with celebration of prayer and other services for the soul of the dead. The priest who officiated at the burial service was selected from the grade of Pontiffs who wore the leopard skin; but various other rites were performed by one of the minor priests to the mummies, previous to their being lowered into the pit of the tomb after that ceremony. They practiced elaborate ceremonies to prepare the pharaohs for their next life, constructing massive pyramids and other elaborate tombs filled with luxuries the deceased were supposed to need in the hereafter. The famous Book of the Dead, a collection of ancient Egyptian funerary and ritual texts, describes in great detail how to meet the challenges of the afterlife. The pagan Egyptian belief was when the body died, parts of its soul known as ka (body double) and the ba (personality) would go to the Kingdom of the Dead. While the soul dwelt in the Fields of Aaru, Osiris demanded work as restitution for the protection he provided. Statues were placed in the tombs to serve as substitutes for the deceased.

The Egyptian belief in the immortality of the soul existed centuries before Judaism, Hellenism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam. According to Herodotus, eventually the Greeks adopted from the Egyptians the belief in the immortality of the soul. He wrote: “The Egyptians also were the first who asserted the doctrine that the soul of man is immortal . . . This opinion, some among the Greeks have at different periods of time adopted as their own.” The Greek philosopher Socrates (470-399 B. C.) traveled to Egypt to consult the Egyptians on their teachings on the immortality of the soul.Upon his return to Greece, he imparted this teaching to his most famous pupil, Plato.......

In Greece the doctrine of a purgatory was spread through the Greek mystery religions and even was spoken by one of its major philosophers. Plato, speaking of the future judgment of the dead, holds out the hope of final deliverance for all, but maintains that, of "those who are judged," some must first "proceed to a subterranean place of judgment, where they shall sustain the punishment they have deserved." The ancient Greeks sacrificed on the thirteenth day (after death) to Mercury as the conductor of the dead, they also had sacrifice which, according to Plato, "was offered for the living and the dead, and was supposed to free them from all the evils to which the wicked are liable when they have left this world.

 

[hobie]

In ancient Rome, the pagan priests also picked up and spread purgatory to the pagans, but as a belief in the early church it was not immediately picked up. From earliest times Greek religious beliefs were a strong influence in Italy, and the Graeco-Roman world was essentially one in its religious and philosophic views of the afterlife.There was no mention of the doctrine during the first two centuries of the church, it has no basis in scripture, the apostles did not teach it, nor did Christ.

In all pagan religions you will find a similar description of a place after death where everyone can be absolved of their sin, not in any way connected to what the Bible says. In the pagan purgatory, fire, water, wind, were represented as combining to purge away the stain of sin, and has its roots in the Babylonian belief of Tammuz or Zoroaster, the great God of the ancient fire-worshippers. The doctrine of purgatory is purely pagan, and in no way from scripture as those who die in Christ no purgatory is or can be needed as it teaches that Christs blood cleanseth true believers from all sin, not purgatory. Scripture does not tell us of at death being put through altered spiritual states of immortality till we are cleansed by purgatory fires and then go to eternal life or heaven, but clearly teaches that immortality is not an innate human possession, but a conditional gift of eternal life given to believers at the resurrection.

Now some people point to Jesus' enunciation of the unpardonable sin as proof for Purgatory. Let us quickly review this Scripture.
"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." [Matthew 12:32] This reference to two worlds is held to be proof of Purgatory in the Bible, but that has nothing about purgartory. The expression "either in this world or in the world to come" does not imply that some sins are forgiven after death; however, it is a strong way of stating the truth that the unrepentant sinner will never be forgiven, as we see from the parallel passages of this Scripture (Luke 12:10, especially Mark 3:29)..

The doctrine of Purgatory is not only without Biblical proof, but it is against the clear and consistent teaching of Scripture. the Bible nowhere speaks of a temporary place of punishment after death for believers; however, it does clearly state that when the believer dies, he rests in the grave and becomes dust, a place that no living loved one can effect in any way.
"Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours ..." [Revelation 14:13]

Others point to Matthew 5:25-26 as the basis for Purgatory. Let us review that Scripture:
"Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, until thou hast paid the uttermost farthing." Matthew 5:25-26. This "prison" thus implied in this Scripture is supposed to be Purgatory. The implication in this Scripture is also that, eventually, the prisoner will pay his final bill and be set free. This implication is held to be consistent with the teaching of Purgatory, that it is not eternal, and eventually, everyone will get out of it, and go on to Heaven, perfectly purified. But it was a literal prison the verse refers to not purgatory by any stretch of the imagination, or whatever the pagan mystery religions tried to come up with.

In fact, neither the word nor the concept of sin-purifying fire is found in Scripture or worse paying to cleanse a dead person of sin as a way to heaven. Scripture leaves absolutely no possibility for sin to be purged away by anything other than the blood of Jesus Christ. The apostle John wrote with irrefutable clarity, "The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin" and "all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:7, 9). John did not say "some" sins or "most" sins, but all sin. The Roman church was confronted with this in the 16th century when the Reformers protested its practice of buying and selling of God's grace through indulgences. Backed into a corner, the Council of Trent tried to tie it to the apocryphal books not part of the canon of Scripture. These were a collection of uninspired books by writers influenced by the Greek belief in the immortality of the soul, prayer for the dead, and denial of the resurrection, who put these teachings what in what was known as the Apocrypha. The council ignored the fact that the Jewish scribes never recognized the apocryphal books as inspired or part of the Hebrew Scriptures and it was rejected outright in 90 A.D. at the Council of Jamnia (Jabneh). Clearly they saw the danger as it was obviously pagan myths and beliefs mixed into these apocryphal books and they clearly saw that God did not inspire the writers of the Apocrypha. This is why the Apocrypha was never included in the original canon of 66 books.

Luther had much struggle on this issue, and I came across several, but this one seems to capture it.."Luther's beliefs on purgatory evolved over time...Any investigation into what Luther believed about purgatory, must start at the beginning of the Reformation - Luther's composition of 95 Theses against corruption in the Catholic Church in 1517. Among the 95 points, more than a dozen are about purgatory, including:

Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ the same as despair, fear, and assurance of salvation. (#16)

Furthermore, it does not seem proved, either by reason or by Scripture, that souls in purgatory are outside the state of merit, that is, unable to grow in love. (#18)

As a matter of fact, the pope remits to souls in purgatory no penalty which, according to canon law, they should have paid in this life. (#22)

They [the papacy] preach only human doctrines who say that as soon as the money clinks into the money chest, the soul flies out of purgatory. (#27)"....

In Confession Concerning Christ's Supper (1528), explicitly stated for the first time that purgatory was a false teaching. Two years later, in "Exhortation to All Clergy Assembled at Augsburg" Luther condemned the doctrine of purgatory and wrote that falsely claiming the ability to free souls from purgatory had brought great shame but "lots of money" for the church. Also in 1530, he wrote Revocation of Purgatory, a tract denouncing the doctrine of purgatory."https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/43994/did-martin-luther-accept-or-reject-the-existence-of-purgatory

So it took time even for Luther to understand what a falsehood this was and to reject it.

 

[Andrew]

The RCC misinterpreted Maccabees and made up a dogma called Purgatory THUS indulgence, which launched the Reformation.
Judah Maccabee and his men took up offerings on behalf of their fallen comrades who died in battle but were found wearing pagan charms.. Judah and his mean fought on a Sabbath and believed in the Resurrection, something Pharisees and Sadducees later didn't like to hear from Greek Christians who were testifying these things to them.. those books were condemned by the end of the first century and replaced with Aquilas (who was Christian and converted to Judaism) greek translation, these replaced the former greek translations in all the synagogues..
Now back to Maccabees, yes they believed that perhaps if they took the offerings to temple it would cover their sin as they were expecting a prophet who would come and raise the dead and that these offerings for sacrifice may be commendable for a better resurrection.. The RCC simply used it to justify Purgatory and prayers for the dead, however they totally rejected that Jesus Christ was the final atoning sacrifice so even if they originally saw Maccabees as insisting we can offer prayers for the dead to atone for their former sins they should have known that those sacrifices are worthless, not only that but there is no purgatory either..
My opinion on Luther was that he didn't just point out their hypocrisy but he likewise pointed fingers at the book of Maccabees, tossing it out without actually considering the true context that those Jews believed in the Resurrection!

You know Gnostics believed that the soul skips resurrection and goes straight to Heaven, sadly many churches still believe this heresy!
The intermediate state of the dead is Hades, either in Paradise/Abrahams Bosom, or the lower parts Hades, but we all go there and await Resurrection, judgment and THEN the righteous are taken up to Heaven... Thanks to Jerome calling paradise Heaven and tartarus and Gehenna Hell it sure did cause a lot of confusion.

Jesus preached to the spirits in the lower parts of hades and took captivity captive by taking those who believed to Abraham's bosom/Paradise where they are in the presence of the Lord and rejoice, those in the lower parts are not in His presence and they tremble with fear awaiting the the judgment and eternity in the Lake of fire where Hades will eventually be thrown into after the Resurrection and judgment.
This is exactly what early ante nicene Christian believers and church fathers believed.

 

[hobie]

Well, the early church believed in the resurrection of the dead with a bodily restoration and fought hard against the pagan belief that the immortal soul went to the underworld immediately after death. But today it is the inverse, and the pagan belief has crept into the church, and become the popular Christian belief that the immortal souls go to straight to Heaven when they die. Here is a good explanation on the nature of death and intermediate state from a friend and classmate of my fathers.....
"When we search the Bible for a description of the nature of death, we find many clear statements that need little or no interpretation. In the first place, Scripture describes death as a return to the elements from which man originally was made. In pronouncing sentence upon Adam after his disobedience, God said: "In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for . . . you are
dust and to dust you shall return" (Gen 3:19). This graphic statement tells us that death is not the separation of the soul from the body, but the termination of one's life, which results in the decay and decomposition of the body. "Since man is created of perishable
matter, his natural condition is mortality (Gen 3:19)."

A study of the words "to die," "death," and "dead" in Hebrew and Greek reveals that death is perceived in the Bible as the deprivation or cessation of life. The ordinary Hebrew word meaning "to die" is muth, which occurs in the Old Testament over 800 times. In the vast majority of cases, muth is used in the simple sense of the death of men and animals. There is no hint in its usage of any distinction between the two. A clear example is found in Ecclesiastes 3:19, which says: "For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of
beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other." More revealing is the use of the Hebrew noun maveth which is used about 150 times and is generally translated "death." From the use of maveth in the Old Testament, we learn three important things about the nature of death.

First, there is no remembrance of the Lord in death: "For in death [maveth] there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who can give thee praise" (Ps 6:5). The reason for no remembrance in death is simply because the thinking process stops when the body with
its brain dies. "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that day his thoughts perish" (Ps 146:4). Since at death the "thoughts perish," it is evident there is no conscious soul that survives the death of the body.

Second, no praise of God is possible in death or in the grave. "What profit is there in my death [maveth], if I go down to the Pit? Will the dust praise thee? Will it tell of thy faithfulness?" (Ps 30:9). By comparing death with dust, the Psalmist clearly shows that there is no consciousness in death because dust cannot think. What a contrast with the "noisy" popular vision of the afterlife where the saints praise God in Heaven and thewicked cry in agony in Hell!

Third, death is described as a "sleep." "Consider and answer me, O Lord my God; lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death" (Ps 13:3). This characterization of death as "sleep" occurs frequently in the Old and New Testaments because it fittingly
represents the state of unconsciousness in death. Shortly we examine the significance of the "sleep" metaphor for understanding the nature of death. In several places, maveth [death] is used with reference to the second death. "As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live" (Ez 33:11; cf. 18:23, 32). Here "the death of the
wicked" is evidently not the natural death that every person experiences, but the death inflicted by God at the End on impenitent sinners. None of the literal descriptions or figurative references to death in the Old Testament suggests the conscious survival of the
soul or spirit apart from the body. Death is the cessation of life for the total person.

The New Testament references to "death," a term rendered by the Greek thanatos, are not as informative regarding the
nature of death as those found in the Old Testament. The reason is partly due to the fact that in the Old Testament many of the references to death are found in the poetic or wisdom books like Psalms, Job, and Ecclesiastes. This kind of literature is absent in the
New Testament. More important is the fact that death is seen in the New Testament from the perspective of Christ's victory over death. This is a dominant theme in the New Testament which conditions the Christian view of death....

In both the Old and New Testaments, death is often described as "sleep." Before attempting to explain the reason for the Biblical use of the metaphor of "sleep" for death, let us look at a few examples. In the Old Testament, three Hebrew words meaning "sleep" are used to describe death.

The most common word, shachav, is used in the frequently occurring expression so-and-so "slept with his fathers" (Gen 28:11; Deut 31:16; 2 Sam 7:12; 1 Kings 2:10). Beginning with its initial application to Moses ("Behold, you are about to sleep with your fathers" - Deut 31:16), and then to David ("Thou shall sleep with thy fathers" - 2 Sam 7:12, KJV), and Job ("Now I shall sleep in the dust" - Job 7:21, KJV), we find this beautiful euphemism for death running like an unbroken thread all through the Old and New Testaments, ending with Peter's statement that "the fathers fell asleep" (2 Pet 3:4).

Death is described as sleep in the New Testament more frequently than in the Old. The reason may be that the hope of the resurrection, which is clarified and strengthened by Christ's resurrection, gives new meaning to the sleep of death from which believers will awaken at Christ's coming. As Christ slept in the tomb prior to His resurrection, so believers sleep in the grave while awaiting their resurrection.
Speaking figuratively of Lazarus' death, Jesus said: "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep [kekoimetai], but I go to awake him out of sleep" (John 11:11). When Jesus perceived that He was misunderstood, He "told them plainly, 'Lazarus is dead" (John
11:14). Then Jesus hastened to reassure Martha: "Your brother will rise again" (John 11:23).

This episode is significant, first of all, because Jesus plainly describes death as "sleep" from which the dead will awaken at the sound of His voice. Lazarus' condition in death was similar to a sleep from which one awakens. Christ said: " I go to awake him out of sleep" (John 11:11). The Lord carried out His promise by going to the tomb to awaken Lazarus by calling: "'Lazarus, come out.' And the dead man came out'" (John 11:43-44).

Lazarus' experience is significant because he spent four days in the grave. This was not a near-death experience, but a real death experience. If, as popularly believed, the soul at death leaves the body and goes to heaven, then Lazarus would have had an amazing after-life experience to share about the four days he would have spent in paradise. The religious leaders and the people would have done all in their power to elicit from Lazarus as much information as possible about the after-life, especially since this topic was hotly debated among the Sadducees and Pharisees (Matt 22:23, 28; Mark 12:18, 23; Luke 20:27, 33).

But Lazarus had nothing to share about life after death, because during the four days he spent in the tomb he slept the unconscious sleep of death. What is true of Lazarus is also true of six other persons who were raised from the dead: The widow's son (1 Kings 17:17-24); the Shunammite's son (2 Kings 4:18-37); the widow's son at Nain (Luke 7:11-15); the daughter of Jairus (Luke 8:41, 42, 49-56); Tabitha (Acts 9:36-41); and Eutychus (Acts 20:9-12). Each of these persons came out of death as if it were out of a profound sleep, with the same feeling and individuality, but with no afterlife experience to share....

 

[hobie]

....There are no indications that the soul of Lazarus, or of the other six persons raised from the dead, had gone to heaven. None of them had a "heavenly experience" to share. The reason being that none of them had ascended to heaven. This is confirmed by Peter's reference to David in his speech on the day of Pentecost: "Brethren, I may say to you confidently of the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is still with us to this day" (Acts 2:29). Some could argue that what was in the grave was David's body, not his soul which had gone to heaven. But this interpretation is negated by Peter's explicit words: "For David did not ascend into the heavens" (Acts 2:34). The Knox translation renders it, "David never went up to heaven."

In the two great chapters on the resurrection in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15, Paul repeatedly speaks of those who have fallen
"asleep" in Christ (1 Thess 4:13, 14, 15; 1 Cor 15:6, 18, 20). In writing to the Thessalonians, who were grieving over their loved ones who had fallen asleep before experiencing the coming of Christ, Paul reassures them that as God raised Jesus from the dead, so He will through Christ "bring with him those who have fallen asleep" (1 Thess 4:14). Some maintain that Paul is here speaking of disembodied souls, which allegedly ascended to heaven at death and which will return with Christ when He descends to earth at His return.

This interpretation ignores three major things. First, the Bible nowhere teaches that the soul at death ascends to heaven. Second, in the context, Paul is not speaking of immortal souls but of "those who are asleep" (1 Thess 4:13; cf. v. 14) and of "the dead in Christ" (1 Thess 4:16). "The dead in Christ will rise first" from their graves (1 Thess 4:16) and will not descend from heaven. There is no hint that the bodies rise from the graves and the souls descend from heaven to be reunited with the bodies. Such a dualistic notion is foreign to the Bible. Third, if Paul really believed that “the dead in Christ” were not really dead in the grave but alive in heaven as disembodied souls, he would have capitalized on their blissful condition in heaven to explain to the Thessalonians that their grieving was senseless.

Why should they grieve for their loved ones if they were already enjoying the bliss of heaven? The reason Paul did not give
such an encouragement is obviously because he knew that sleeping saints were not in heaven but in their graves. This conclusion is supported by the assurance Paul gave to his readers that living Christians would not meet Christ at His coming before those who had fallen asleep. “We who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep” (1 Thess 4:15). The reason is that “the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess 4:16-17).

The fact that the living saints will meet with Christ at the same time as the sleeping saints indicates that the latter have not yet been united with Christ in heaven. If the souls of the sleeping saints were already enjoying fellowship with Christ in heaven and were to descend with Christ to earth at His second Advent, then obviously they would have an unmistakable priority over the living saints. But the truth is that both sleeping and living believers are awaiting their longed-for union with the Savior; a union which both will experience at the same time on the day of Christ’s coming.

After affirming the fundamental importance of Christ’s resurrection for the Christian faith and hope, Paul explains that “if Christ had not been raised . . . Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished” (1 Cor 15:18-19). Paul could hardly have said that the sleeping saints would have perished without the guarantee of Christ’s resurrection, if he believed that their souls were immortal and were already enjoying the bliss of Paradise. If Paul believed the latter, he probably would have said that without Christ’s resurrection the soul of the sleeping saints would remain disembodied for all eternity. But Paul makes no allusion to such a possibility, because he believed that the whole person, body and soul, would have “perished” without the guarantee of Christ’s resurrection.

It is significant that in the whole chapter which is devoted to the importance and dynamics of the resurrection, Paul never hints at the alleged reunification of the body with the soul at the resurrection. If Paul had held such a belief, he hardly could have avoided making some allusions to the reattachment of the body to the soul, especially in his discussions of the transformation of the believers from a mortal to an immortal state at Christ’s coming. But the only “mystery” that Paul reveals is that “we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed” (1 Cor 15:51). This change from a perishable to an imperishable nature occurs for all, living and dead, at the same time, namely, at the sounding of “the last trumpet” (1 Cor 15:52).

The change has nothing to do with disembodied souls regaining possession of their resurrected bodies. Rather, it is a change from mortal to immortal life for both the living and the dead in Christ: “The mortal putson immortality” (1 Cor 15:54)." https://www.truthaccordingtoscriptu...r-resurection/Immortality or Resurrection.pdf

 

[Andrew]

Sleep is inactivity of the physical body, Resurrection is the uniting with the body, the soul never sleeps, it waits in sheol either in Paradise or Torment, Jesus preached to the spirits that were in hades..
Lazarus is the literal name of a literal person, Jesus used parables with everyday experiences but when he uses a name he isn't just making it up..

Btw the dead know nothing about the current world, it doesn't mean that their soul or spirit just poof disappears! It means clear as day that the ego you had attached to in the world means nothing to you or anyone in Sheol

 

[hobie]

Sleep is inactivity of the physical body, Resurrection is the uniting with the body, the soul never sleeps, it waits in sheol either in Paradise or Torment, Jesus preached to the spirits that were in hades..
Lazarus is the literal name of a literal person, Jesus used parables with everyday experiences but when he uses a name he isn't just making it up..

Btw the dead know nothing about the current world, it doesn't mean that their soul or spirit just poof disappears! It means clear as day that the ego you had attached to in the world means nothing to you or anyone in Sheol

Sheol represents the place of the dead, where both the dead righteous and the wicked go, the grave. No physical, mental, or spiritual activity is possible there because it is never linked with life or any kind of existence, but exclusively with death. The story of Lazarus was a parable, the Jews were picking up Hellenistic thought and Jesus used the parable to convey a moral lesson. Jesus was not trying to explain the physical realities of the afterlife. Instead, He was referring to the unfaithfulness of the Jews regarding their responsibilities of the truth in which they had much, while the Gentiles were in spiritual poverty or had little. Jesus thus rebuked the Pharisees for their disregard of the Scriptures, foreseeing that even a supernatural event would not change the hearts of those who persistently rejected the teachings of “Moses and the prophets.”

 

[Andrew]

Sheol represents the place of the dead, where both the dead righteous and the wicked go, the grave. No physical, mental, or spiritual activity is possible there because it is never linked with life or any kind of existence, but exclusively with death. The story of Lazarus was a parable, the Jews were picking up Hellenistic thought and Jesus used the parable to convey a moral lesson. Jesus was not trying to explain the physical realities of the afterlife. Instead, He was referring to the unfaithfulness of the Jews regarding their responsibilities of the truth in which they had much, while the Gentiles were in spiritual poverty or had little. Jesus thus rebuked the Pharisees for their disregard of the Scriptures, foreseeing that even a supernatural event would not change the hearts of those who persistently rejected the teachings of “Moses and the prophets.”

Funny because Moses was seen talking with Jesus..
Jesus preached to the spirits in Hades...
The thief on the cross was in paradise that day...
Lazarus is the literal name of a man...
Abel cried from the grave..

Get away from the dogmas of your church, just because pagans believed in an after life does not mean there isn't one

 

[hobie]

Well, looks like the Pope himself may have already seen the error of Purgatory...."Your Holiness, in our previous meeting you told me that our species will disappear in a certain moment and that God, still out of his creative force, will create new species. You have never spoken to me about the souls who died in sin and will go to hell to suffer it for eternity. You have however spoken to me of good souls, admitted to the contemplation of God. But what about bad souls? Where are they punished?

“They are not punished, those who repent obtain the forgiveness of God and enter the rank of souls who contemplate him, but those who do not repent and cannot therefore be forgiven disappear. There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.”.....https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/did-pope-francis-really-deny-hell/

 

[Josiah]

As a former Catholic...... who left that church.....


As I understand this issue... I must make this overly simple (because this gets all ties up in several issues)....


There are Scriptures that indicate that "nothing unclean" can enter heaven. And for many centuries, that was a topic of considerable conversation since it seems Christians continue to sin.

Two "schools" developed:

1. Those who hold we are clean via forgiveness, covered by the robe of righteousness. We are CONSIDERED clean via Jesus. A variation of this is that we are IMPUTED clean - Jesus's righteousness conveyed to us via faith. In both cases, it is the application of Jesus that becomes the issue, in HIM we are clean. There is MUCH in Scripture to support this (OT and NT).

2. The Bible insists that WE BE clean - ourselves. They theorized that at the microsecond of death..... in a micro actually timeless flash..... we are CHANGED at our death. The Bible does speak of some "change." And this involves making us CLEAN - our actual nature is CHANGED, the "OLD MAN" is elimination in that timeless fraction of a microsecond as we move into heaven.

The second view (in various forms) became popular in the East (todays Eastern Orthodox traditions)- and still is, although it's left PURELY as theory and discussion.... very undeveloped... NOT doctrine. In the West, the two views were debated... and over many centuries, the second one developed - mixed with some secular ideas and philosophies - tied down in a sense to medieval concepts of time and place - and eventually into something the unique, singular Catholic Church began to teach (it only very recently became dogma). SOME Catholics (not entirely correctly) connect this to a synergistic, progressive idea of soteriology (where we finish saving ourselves) but that's at least in some ways an abuse of the doctrine (although a common one in Catholicism).


Personally, I hang with the first concept... But the original Eastern take on #2 doesn't offend me; it seems POSSIBLE. But the new, unique Catholic dogma seems less than very weak... and a rather terrible idea. BTW, I've been to several Catholic funerals and Masses - and NEVER has this Dogma of Purgatory EVER been so much as mentioned! It's an idea Catholics in practice ignore, in my experience.

 

[hobie]

I just talked to my neighbor who confirmed she was taught about Purgatory and then went on to say she also was taught about Limbo...
It goes hand in hand with Purgatory. So lets look at the doctrine or belief of ‘Limbo’ which now the Catholic church is saying it never accepted, but still incorporated the theory in its ordinary beliefs.

The term ‘Limbo’ was picked up as the part of the underworld (Hades) where the patriarchs of the Old Testament were believed to be kept until Christ's soul descended into it by his death. The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes Christ's descent into "hell" as meaning primarily that "the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection. This was the first meaning given for Christ experiencing death for the wages of sin, in the Catholic veiw it was Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. It also was applied later, to the The ‘Limbo of Infants’ (Latin limbus infantium or limbus puerorum) is a hypothesis about the permanent status of the unbaptized who die in infancy, too young to have committed personal sins, but not having been freed from what Catholics hold as original sin. Since at least the time of Augustine, those consider sprinkling of infants or baby baptism to be necessary for the salvation of those to whom it can be administered, have debated the fate of unbaptized innocents, and the theory of the ‘Limbo of Infants’ is one of the ideas as a proposed solution. Again both are not scriptural as the term ‘Limbo’ is not refered to and does not appear in the Bible, just more Greek myths of pagan influence and mans tradition or ideas being picked up and mixed in. It is interesting to note that ‘Limbo’ is not an official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church or any other.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Matt 16:18-19 SHALL NOT PREVAIL

Truth s revealed by God and is immutable!
The church founded by Christ and is ir-reformable!

truth must be revealed by Christ! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and taught, proposed by holy mother church! Matt 28:19 without any possibility of error! Jn 16:13

God nor Christ is the author of error!

the church is the pillar and ground of truth! 1 Tim 3:15

 

[Lamb]

Matt 16:18-19 SHALL NOT PREVAIL

Truth s revealed by God and is immutable!
The church founded by Christ and is ir-reformable!

truth must be revealed by Christ! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and taught, proposed by holy mother church! Matt 28:19 without any possibility of error! Jn 16:13

God nor Christ is the author of error!

the church is the pillar and ground of truth! 1 Tim 3:15

Truth is revealed by God's Word and that's found in scriptures.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Truth is revealed by God's Word and that's found in scriptures.

The Bible alone?
Explain by what scripture God called Abraham? Or by what scripture the word of God came to John in the wilderness Lk 3:2???

 

[Lamb]

The Bible alone?
Explain by what scripture God called Abraham? Or by what scripture the word of God came to John in the wilderness Lk 3:2???

You misunderstand my statement. For us to understand what is truth, we only have God's Word to go by. Don't deflect.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

You misunderstand my statement. For us to understand what is truth, we only have God's Word to go by. Don't deflect.

what is the source of truth for Christians?
What is the rule of faith?
What is the pillar and ground of truth?

 

[Lamb]

what is the source of truth for Christians?
What is the rule of faith?
What is the pillar and ground of truth?

God.

God gives us His Word. God gives us His Son. God gives us eternal life.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

God.

God gives us His Word. God gives us His Son. God gives us eternal life.

God yes
Christ yes
And the church!

Christ and His church are one and the church is an extension of Christ perpetuating His ministry and mission to the whole world and all ages
The one true church’s teaching authority from Christ is without error!

A divine institution: founded by Christ on Peter and the holy apostles and their successors unto the end!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!

Christ and His church are one! Jn 15:1-5 Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

Church has authority from Christ!

Church is free from all error!

Mt 16:18 & mt 18:18

Mt 28:19-20

Acts 1:17

acts 8:31 & 35

Lk 10:16

Jn 8:32

Jn 13:20

Jn 15:5

Jn 16:13

Jn 20:21-22

eph 2:20

acts 2:42

1 Tim 3:15

The one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles is an extension church of Christ’s ministry of redemption to the whole world and all time!

Christ perpetuates his mission, power, and authority in the holy church!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15


What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4
Eph 5:32 Jn 15:1-5

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors, it is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 16:18 One fold
Jn 10:16 the household of faith! Gal 6:10

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Christ and His church are one, what Christ did the church continues to do, the church is an extension of Christ!

 

[Lamb]

God yes
Christ yes
And the church!

Christ and His church are one and the church is an extension of Christ perpetuating His ministry and mission to the whole world and all ages
The one true church’s teaching authority from Christ is without error!

A divine institution: founded by Christ on Peter and the holy apostles and their successors unto the end!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!

Christ and His church are one! Jn 15:1-5 Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

Church has authority from Christ!

Church is free from all error!

Mt 16:18 & mt 18:18

Mt 28:19-20

Acts 1:17

acts 8:31 & 35

Lk 10:16

Jn 8:32

Jn 13:20

Jn 15:5

Jn 16:13

Jn 20:21-22

eph 2:20

acts 2:42

1 Tim 3:15

The one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles is an extension church of Christ’s ministry of redemption to the whole world and all time!

Christ perpetuates his mission, power, and authority in the holy church!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15


What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4
Eph 5:32 Jn 15:1-5

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors, it is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 16:18 One fold
Jn 10:16 the household of faith! Gal 6:10

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Christ and His church are one, what Christ did the church continues to do, the church is an extension of Christ!

God's church is made up of those who believe in the Savior.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

why does it need be in the Bible?

where does the Bible say all the truths revealed by Christ are found in scripture?

What is the source of truth or the rule of faith for Christians?

what is the pillar and ground of truth?