The church hidden and visible

[Lamb]

Some denominations say church invisible and church visible but Lutherans prefer to say the church hidden and visible.

The church hidden is the one holy Christian (catholic) and apostolic church that consists of believers. The church visible consists of the godless among the saints.

Pedrito's post in the Filoque Clause thread to MC prompted this thread. [MENTION=142]Pedrito[/MENTION], do you believe in a church hidden (or invisible) and visible?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Some denominations say church invisible and church visible but Lutherans prefer to say the church hidden and visible.

The church hidden is the one holy Christian (catholic) and apostolic church that consists of believers. The church visible consists of the godless among the saints.

Pedrito's post in the Filoque Clause thread to MC prompted this thread. [MENTION=142]Pedrito[/MENTION], do you believe in a church hidden (or invisible) and visible?

I believe in the Church militant and the Church triumphant as well as the Church purifying - though the last is more often referred to as the Church suffering I think. The Church triumphant is not visible with earthly eyes. The same is true of the Church purifying. Both refer to the body of Christ after their earthly life is finished and before the general resurrection and the last judgement.

 

[Tigger]

I highly appreciate the Lutheran definition as defined over the more widely used phrase 'visible and invisible'.

 

[atpollard]

If course in one sense it is neither "hidden" nor "invisible" ...

Galatians 5:13-26
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.


Matthew 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.


Matthew 7:15-20
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

 

[Cassia]

The church hidden are those hidden in Christ. The church visable is what the world sees in the congregations.

 

[psalms 91]

The hidden are those who are in Christ and follow the Way, the Way that Jesus taught and are obedient The visible is all the denoms and churchs out of which the Way followers are from, a minority to be sure

 

[Lamb]

The church hidden are those hidden in Christ. The church visable is what the world sees in the congregations.

Yes, that's what we believe too. Not everyone knows when they see the congregations who truly has faith and who is a hypocrite except for God

 

[Pedrito]

In Post #1 on Page 1, Lämmchen asked:

@Pedrito, do you believe in a church hidden (or invisible) and visible?

Romans 4:3: “For what saith the scripture?”

Romans 10:8: “But what saith it?” (The Law – scripture)

Galatians 4:20: “Nevertheless what saith the scripture”

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Matthew 13:25: “But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.”

Matthew 13:38: “The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one”

1 John 2:18,19:
“18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”

Jude 1:3-13 (condensed to save space + emphasis added):
“3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 ...
6 ...
7 ...
8 ...
10 ...
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.”

Pedrito does not wish to dwell on the relative appropriateness of applied terminology (church invisible and church visible, church hidden and visible, etc.)

But has Pedrito made his understanding clear?


Continued ...

 

[Lamb]

It sounds as if you believe in the 2 kingdoms too from the scripture you provided.

 

[Pedrito]

In Post #9 on Page 1, Lämmchen stated:

It sounds as if you believe in the 2 kingdoms too from the scripture you provided.

Pedrito in Post #8 on the same page, had responded to a question about Pedrito’s understanding of the coexistence of visible and invisible churches.

He did so by providing Scripture which showed that that concept was inherent within the Holy Writings.

Then out of the blue, those Scriptures are said to somehow indicate something about two kingdoms.

Pedrito finds that association (whatever it may mean) to be both puzzling and interesting.

So Pedrito requests of Lämmchen, that she clarify what she means by the term “2 kingdoms”, and how she derives that association from the Scriptures Pedrito provided.

 

[Lamb]

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said two kingdoms. It's different than what I was going for in this thread so I retract that. My apologies.

 

[Pedrito]

Lämmchen’s apology (Post #11 on Page 1) is appreciated but unnecessary.

Pedrito understands how easy it is to inject thoughts that in retrospect may seem inappropriate in the context.

Pedrito has probably done that many times in the past, and will probably repeat the process many times in the future.


But Pedrito is still curious about the concept mentioned (2 kingdoms), and would welcome information in that regard.

 

[Lamb]

Lämmchen’s apology (Post #11 on Page 1) is appreciated but unnecessary.

Pedrito understands how easy it is to inject thoughts that in retrospect may seem inappropriate in the context.

Pedrito has probably done that many times in the past, and will probably repeat the process many times in the future.


But Pedrito is still curious about the concept mentioned (2 kingdoms), and would welcome information in that regard.

I had replied to you after reading MoreCoffee's post about the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant (and the Catholic church adds the Church purifying). So that's why it got in my head Here is a basic definition although there is so much more involved: Every person is a subject of two kingdoms — one spiritual, the other earthly. Both the godly and ungodly are citizens of an earthly kingdom or country.

 

[Pedrito]

… Continued

In Post #1 on Page 1, Lämmchen asked:

@Pedrito, do you believe in a church hidden (or invisible) and visible?

Some sensible questions naturally spring from Lämmchen’s question, and from the Scriptures that were given in response in Post #8 on Page 1, and from the extended explanation of the particular Matthew 13 parable (Matthew 13:36-43):

“36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 ​The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one ;
39 ​The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

Those sensible questions are:
- Were all of the Satan-inspired “infiltrators” actually deliberate infiltrators?
- How many of them were tricked by Satan’s appeal to their lust for power and influence?
- How many of them were tricked by Satan’s appeal to their general selfishness?
- How many of them were tricked by Satan’s engaging the normal human, carnal trait of giving loyalty to particular leaders (Paul, Apollos, Cephas, etc.)?
- How many of them were tricked by Satan’s engaging the normal human, carnal trait of giving loyalty to particular organisations associated with those leaders, and the particular teachings?
- And especially, In what way were some “denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ” while still part of the church?
- Do we see an indication (seeds, even) of the origin of present-day denominations, and of the historical deviation from Apostolic Teaching?

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Are those questions and their implications not important? Are they to be ignored? Should they remain swept under the carpet?

What do people think?

 

[Josiah]

+ The Church is US!


The primary meaning of “church” is us! The whole company, community, family of Christians spread out over the all the continents and centuries. This is the proclamation of the ancient Creed that we believe in “one holy catholic church – the communion of saints” (The word “catholic” here is an adjective meaning “universal, whole, complete, general, all-embracing”). Christians are “one” because we are bound together as one communion/family of believers in Christ. We are “holy” because through this faith in Christ we are forgiven, we are “catholic” because together we are the whole corpus of believers, and we are a communion or community or fellowship of saints (those made so by faith in Christ). See Matthew 16:18, 1 Peter 2:5 & 9, Mark 16:15, Romans 15:25, 1 Cor. 14:33 and 16:1, Eph. 1:1).

We affirm the “mystical union of all believers,” “the communion of saints,” the “community of faith.” ALL believers in Jesus – across the centuries and continents – united by our common faith in Christ as our Savior, united into the “household” or “family” of God, united as the “Body of Christ.” This communion, the church, this family is not limited by time or geography or institutional affiliations. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. The church is CHRISTIANS – in this sense, not an institution. Pardon the grammar, but “It’s not Jesus and ME, it’s Jesus and WE.” This is the primary and foremost meaning of “church.” See Ephesians 2:19-22, Ephesians 4:4, 1 Peter 2:9, Romans 12:4, Ephesians 1:1, Luke 17:21, etc.

Jesus is the Head of the Church (He never resigned) and it is to Him that we are to listen and to submit. The Church isn’t about control or power but about love and ministry. We are about serving, not lording it over one another as the Gentiles do.

I reject replacing or subjecting this view of the church with the insistence that some denomination – as a physical, visible, geological, political, economic, legal entity – is rather The Church (whether “in fullness” or at all). I view the church collectively and corporately rather than individually and politically.

The western part of the Roman Empire “fell” in the 5th Century and the Roman Church there began to accumulate increasing power in the vacuum. It increasingly struggled for power with the Eastern Church (in what remained of the Roman Empire). A slow result of that was that the Roman Church (and to a lesser degree the Eastern Orthodox Church) placed increasing emphasis, power and authority in itself, gaining an increasingly institutional view. It increasingly proclaimed itself to be the fullness of the church, eventually declaring itself the authoritative, infallible one. The emphasis being on a denomination - its own self.


... continues in next post.....



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[Josiah]

.... continuing from above....


+ Other Meanings of “Church”




+ Congregations. Christians usually associate together, congregating or assembling typically for the purposes of public worship, mutual cooperation, edification, support and accountability. Such a gathering in a given place and time is technically called a “congregation” (although the term “church” may be used here in a secondary sense as in "First Baptist Church of Springfield"; this use is seen in Scripture, too – see Galatians 1:2, 1 Thessalonians 1:1). These associations may assume some institutional aspects (constitution, budget, boards, buildings, polities, etc.) but the “church” is the people, not the institution. Actually, the Christians who associate in that congregation are but a small, tiny part of the “church catholic” – the whole number of believers, past and present.

By their very nature, congregations include non-believers in their midst (some seekers, some “hypocrites”), Matthew 13:47-49 seems to indicate we should not be too obsessed about that, just preach the word and love all people (God will sort it all out). Because Christians are spread out all over the world, it’s no surprise that that are literally millions of congregations – some huge, some tiny, some with institutional aspects, some just an informal gathering in a living room. Several congregations are mentioned in the New Testament (Galatians 1:2, 1 Thessalonians 1:1, 1 Corinthians 1:2, Revelation 1:4, etc.).


+ Denomination Congregations may be denominational or non-denominational. “Non-denominational” congregations are autonomous, independent, isolated and separate – with no formal relationship with any other congregation and with no accountability beyond itself (or perhaps directly to God). “Denominational” congregations have bonded together with others in a formal manner, usually for reasons similar to why Christians bonded together with

There are no examples of denominations in the New Testament. While some historians argue there were none until the 4th century, we do see at least some very elementary aspects of cooperation in the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) and the collection for the saints. For the first 300 years, Christianity was an illegal, “underground” religion – more a movement than anything - often “on the run” and meeting informally and occasionally even secretly in “house churches.” This changed when Christianity was made legal and then the official Roman religion in the 4th century.

Today, there are literally thousands of denominations, although about 90% of Christians are in 8 groupings of such (“faith communities”).


+ Buildings. This familiar ENGLISH meaning of the word is one not found in Scripture. In England, the property of a congregation also became known by the word “church.” Thus we may say in English: “The church was recently repainted.” In the New Testament, no congregation yet had any facilities.

The fact that there are billions of Christian people, millions of congregations and thousands of denominations has no relevance to the fact that there is ONE, holy, catholic, communion of saints. Irrespective of our institutions, WE are ONE by virtue of our one Lord Jesus, our one faith in Christ, our one baptism (Ephesians 4:5-6, Romans 12:5, Ephesians 4:25, 1 Corinthians 10:17 and 12:12-26).



Pax Christi


Josiah



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