Testing the spirits

[Pilgrim]

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. ~ KJV

This is about testing the spirits; not just testing to expose false prophets.

The second verse below is not about reproving the false teaching of Jesus never had come in the flesh as some scholars believed. If you note the phrase "is come" is referring to where Jesus Christ is presently as dwelling in us, in our flesh in testing these spirits.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: ~ KJV

This is the same thing as Paul saying this; 2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? ~ KJV

This is rightly dividing the word of truth in 1 John 4:2 by reading the next verse of 1 John 4:3.

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. ! KJV

Another confirmation of this as rightly dividing the word of truth can be seen in verse 4.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. ~ KJV

So the Holy Spirit is not outside of you to be felt in the worship place or visiting with false signs & wonders because that is where the spirit of the antichrist is. That is the line of discernment in testing the spirits, otherwise verses 3 & 4 is null & void. We cannot say if the spirit feels good, like a sense of feeling love or joy or peace or fire or power, then it must be the Holy Spirit one is feeling outside of them, but no, because there are seducing spirits in the world.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; ~ KJV

So the Old Covenant is done away with in feeling God's Presence at the Temple & the reality of the New Covenant is this below.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. ~ KJV

So what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman is that the time will come & now is when the worshipers of God shall not need to go to a place to get close to God to worship Him, for they shall worship the Father in spirit & in truth anywhere. That is the point of saying God is a Spirit in referring to this new reality of being within us always so we can worship the Father anywhere we please by coming to the Son in honoring Him in worship in seeking His glory & thereby honoring the Father to His glory.

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. ~ KJV

God is no longer confined to a place of worship. This is why we are warned.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. ~ KJV

Many saved believers are led astray by going to these places where the "movements of the "spirit" " is supposedly at, thinking that is the Holy Spirit in chasing after to receive by a sensational sign in the flesh, but Jesus says we will know the Holy Spirit by Him dwelling within us; not as the world does when seeking to receive spirits as they can see they are receiving them.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. ! KJV

So pray to Jesus Christ for help as your Good Shepherd to help you prune away words & practices that does not reflect your faith but open the door for seducing spirits to come in to be felt in the worship place & even for coming over saved believers in filling them again & again & again in creating confusion.

Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. ...... 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:. ~ KJV

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us. ~ KJV

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. ~ KJV

 

[popsthebuilder]

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. ~ KJV

This is about testing the spirits; not just testing to expose false prophets.

The second verse below is not about reproving the false teaching of Jesus never had come in the flesh as some scholars believed. If you note the phrase "is come" is referring to where Jesus Christ is presently as dwelling in us, in our flesh in testing these spirits.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: ~ KJV

This is the same thing as Paul saying this; 2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? ~ KJV

This is rightly dividing the word of truth in 1 John 4:2 by reading the next verse of 1 John 4:3.

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. ! KJV

Another confirmation of this as rightly dividing the word of truth can be seen in verse 4.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. ~ KJV

So the Holy Spirit is not outside of you to be felt in the worship place or visiting with false signs & wonders because that is where the spirit of the antichrist is. That is the line of discernment in testing the spirits, otherwise verses 3 & 4 is null & void. We cannot say if the spirit feels good, like a sense of feeling love or joy or peace or fire or power, then it must be the Holy Spirit one is feeling outside of them, but no, because there are seducing spirits in the world.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; ~ KJV

So the Old Covenant is done away with in feeling God's Presence at the Temple & the reality of the New Covenant is this below.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. ~ KJV

So what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman is that the time will come & now is when the worshipers of God shall not need to go to a place to get close to God to worship Him, for they shall worship the Father in spirit & in truth anywhere. That is the point of saying God is a Spirit in referring to this new reality of being within us always so we can worship the Father anywhere we please by coming to the Son in honoring Him in worship in seeking His glory & thereby honoring the Father to His glory.

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. ~ KJV

God is no longer confined to a place of worship. This is why we are warned.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. ~ KJV

Many saved believers are led astray by going to these places where the "movements of the "spirit" " is supposedly at, thinking that is the Holy Spirit in chasing after to receive by a sensational sign in the flesh, but Jesus says we will know the Holy Spirit by Him dwelling within us; not as the world does when seeking to receive spirits as they can see they are receiving them.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. ! KJV

So pray to Jesus Christ for help as your Good Shepherd to help you prune away words & practices that does not reflect your faith but open the door for seducing spirits to come in to be felt in the worship place & even for coming over saved believers in filling them again & again & again in creating confusion.

Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. ...... 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:. ~ KJV

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us. ~ KJV

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. ~ KJV

Some of your gleanings seem of value. But in testing spirits the metric is the fruit of that spirit; what it causes or produces.

peace

 

[Stravinsk]

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. ~ KJV

This is about testing the spirits; not just testing to expose false prophets.

The second verse below is not about reproving the false teaching of Jesus never had come in the flesh as some scholars believed. If you note the phrase "is come" is referring to where Jesus Christ is presently as dwelling in us, in our flesh in testing these spirits.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: ~ KJV

This is the same thing as Paul saying this; 2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? ~ KJV

This is rightly dividing the word of truth in 1 John 4:2 by reading the next verse of 1 John 4:3.

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. ! KJV

(snip)

Saul/Paul does certainly acknowledge Jesus "coming in the flesh", however, all his *teachings* come from a non-flesh Messiah that supposedly blinded him at noon on the road to Damascus (Acts 22:6). In Galatians 1:13-17 Paul admits he got no teaching from the apostles, it all came by special revelation. In other words, from a Jesus not of flesh, nor disciples of flesh.

 

[pinacled]

Saul/Paul does certainly acknowledge Jesus "coming in the flesh", however, all his *teachings* come from a non-flesh Messiah that supposedly blinded him at noon on the road to Damascus (Acts 22:6). In Galatians 1:13-17 Paul admits he got no teaching from the apostles, it all came by special revelation. In other words, from a Jesus not of flesh, nor disciples of flesh.

Incorrect,
To deny a ressurection of flesh is blasphemy ....

 

[Stravinsk]

Incorrect,
To deny a ressurection of flesh is blasphemy ....

Whoa there!

Try this on for size:

"I Stravinsk, on the road to Melbourne, was blinded at noon by Jesus in the clouds. He proceeded to teach me this, that and the other, which I put down in letters. Being persecuted greatly, I am always very humble in my sufferings. "

If you doubt this testimony does it mean you doubt a resurrection? Nope. I just don't believe Paul's story, just like you likely don't believe the statement above.

 

[pinacled]

Whoa there!

Try this on for size:

"I Stravinsk, on the road to Melbourne, was blinded at noon by Jesus in the clouds. He proceeded to teach me this, that and the other, which I put down in letters. Being persecuted greatly, I am always very humble in my sufferings. "

If you doubt this testimony does it mean you doubt a resurrection? Nope. I just don't believe Paul's story, just like you likely don't believe the statement above.

Ole sh'aul has a way of delicate speech in order of informing others of the Faith.

Thorns have a way of presenting a dew on their branches.

 

[Stravinsk]

Ole sh'aul has a way of delicate speech in order of informing others of the Faith.

Thorns have a way of presenting a dew on their branches.

Um, o k. However my point still stands. Paul never "met" Jesus (by his own testimony!) in the flesh. He didn't receive instruction by the apostles (by his own testimony!). He supposedly encountered a "Jesus in the sky" and got all his teachings by special revelation. That qualifies him, at the very least, as a candidate for the verses put forth in the original post. The Israelites had commandments on tablets of stone, Jesus had 12 disciples. Paul has...his own testimony from a supposed vision.

 

[Origen]

Whoa there!

Try this on for size:

"I Stravinsk, on the road to Melbourne, was blinded at noon by Jesus in the clouds. He proceeded to teach me this, that and the other, which I put down in letters. Being persecuted greatly, I am always very humble in my sufferings. "

If you doubt this testimony does it mean you doubt a resurrection? Nope. I just don't believe Paul's story, just like you likely don't believe the statement above.

The only problem with that is it did not happen that way according to Paul. That is not what the text states. It says nothing about being blinded by Jesus in the clouds. You are simple adding elements that are not there.

Acts 9:3-8
Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.” The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing.

Acts 22:6-11
As I was on my way and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone around me. And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’ And I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’ Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand the voice of the one who was speaking to me. And I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do.’ And since I could not see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus.

Acts 26:13-16
At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.'

Paul makes it very clear he was blinded by a bright light from heaven. Paul never says he saw Jesus or clouds only that he heard a voice.

 

[Stravinsk]

The only problem with that is it did not happen that way according to Paul. That is not what the text states. It says nothing about being blinded by Jesus in the clouds. You are simple adding elements that are not there.

Acts 9:3-8
Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.” The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing.

Acts 22:6-11
As I was on my way and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone around me. And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’ And I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’ Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand the voice of the one who was speaking to me. And I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do.’ And since I could not see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus.

Acts 26:13-16
At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.'

Paul make it very clear he was blinded by a bright light from heaven. Paul never says he saw Jesus only that he heard a voice.

It still doesn't matter. Clouds or no, Paul's Jesus is not flesh and blood. It's "a voice" and "a light from heaven"...and then "special revelation" which (by his own words) did not come from the apostles. Why did Jesus bother with the apostles at all?

If a man came to you claiming to have a similar story, with religious teachings to go with it, would you be inclined to believe him, on simply his own testimony?

 

[pinacled]

The only problem with that is it did not happen that way according to Paul. That is not what the text states. It says nothing about being blinded by Jesus in the clouds. You are simple adding elements that are not there.

Acts 9:3-8
Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.” The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing.

Acts 22:6-11
As I was on my way and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone around me. And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’ And I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’ Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand the voice of the one who was speaking to me. And I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do.’ And since I could not see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus.

Acts 26:13-16
At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.'

Paul makes it very clear he was blinded by a bright light from heaven. Paul never says he saw Jesus or clouds only that he heard a voice.

Ears first

 

[Origen]

It still doesn't matter. Clouds or no, Paul's Jesus is not flesh and blood. It's "a voice" and "a light from heaven"...and then "special revelation" which (by his own words) did not come from the apostles. Why did Jesus bother with the apostles at all?

If a man came to you claiming to have a similar story, with religious teachings to go with it, would you be inclined to believe him, on simply his own testimony?

First you misrepresent what the text states. Now you claim it does not matter. Clearly Paul could not disagree more.

Rom. 4:24 - It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord

Rom. 6:4 - We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Rom. 6:9 - We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.

Rom. 7:4 - Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

Rom. 8:11 - If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom. 8:34 - Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Rom. 10:9 - because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

1 Cor. 15:3-4 - For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures

1 Cor. 15:14-20 - If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. (1 Cor. 15:14-20)

2 Cor. 4:14 - knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

2 Cor 5:15 - and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Gal. 1:1 - Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

Eph. 1:20 - that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,

Col. 2:12 - having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

1 Th. 1:10 - and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

 

[Stravinsk]

First you misrepresent what the text states. Now you claim it does not matter. Clearly Paul could not disagree more.

(snip Paul's stuff)

I didn't represent the text, I made a comparison for the purpose of illustrating a false conclusion.

The false conclusion: You are denying the resurrection
By: Claiming Paul's experience on the Damascus road was fabricated.

The point I was making should be clear to anyone with basic reading skills. Just because I don't believe X person's story about their seeing (eh, hearing) a resurrected Messiah (and btw, this is not unique to Paul), doesn't mean I don't believe in a risen Messiah.

Secondly, I have no idea why you posted all those verses. I said at the beginning that Paul doesn't deny Christ came in the flesh. What I am saying is that Paul's experience of Messiah is not a Messiah in the flesh. His teachings come by "special revelation", not as a witness/follower of Messiah when Messiah was flesh on earth.

As his teachings are claimed to be from Christ, already risen, he is therefore a candidate as an anti-christ, because unlike John's Revelation, he had no in person witness/relationship with Messiah while Messiah was on earth. A believer basically has to take his word for it, and that word is on Saul/Paul's testimony alone. Paul even tells you, explicitly, that it was by special revelation and that he didn't get his message from the disciples. It's right there in his writings.

 

[Origen]

I didn't represent the text

Your example, by adding elements not found in the text, gave a false impression of what the texts actually states.

What I am saying is that Paul's experience of Messiah is not a Messiah in the flesh.

You assume what you cannot prove.

 

[Stravinsk]

You assume what you cannot prove.

Galatians 1:11-17


11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

(right here Paul tells his audience that he didn't receive it "of man" - flesh and blood). Jesus Christ is the Son of Man, who came in the flesh, as a man. Paul's revelation is of a "Jesus" that is not a man, or flesh and blood. His exclusion also includes Christ's apostles, men of flesh and blood.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

 

[Origen]

Galatians 1:11-17

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

(right here Paul tells his audience that he didn't receive it "of man" - flesh and blood). Jesus Christ is the Son of Man, who came in the flesh, as a man. Paul's revelation is of a "Jesus" that is not a man, or flesh and blood. His exclusion also includes Christ's apostles, men of flesh and blood.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

That's correct he didn't. Paul point is that he did not get his information from an earthly source, in other words a fallible source. The phrase "is not after man" (i.e. οὐκ ἔστιν κατὰ ἄνθρωπον) means he did not receive it from a mere human source. Another way to phrase that same idea is "it is not Gospel according to man" or "is not man’s gospel." Paul want to emphasize his knowledge comes from a divine source. Christ Jesus is that divine source.

 

[Stravinsk]

That's correct he didn't. Paul point is that he did not get his information from an earthly source, in other words a fallible source. The phrase "is not after man" (i.e. οὐδὲ γὰρ ἐγὼ παρὰ ἀνθρώπου παρέλαβον αὐτὸ) means he did not receive it from a human source. Another way to phrase that idea is"it is not Gospel according to man" or "is not man’s gospel." Paul want to emphasize his knowledge comes from a divine source. Christ Jesus is that divine source.

Much like Joseph Smith got his information from a "divine source", according to Joseph Smith. Or the leader of any new/old religion got their information directly from God, by revelation, according to whatever Revelator you believe.

If you look above to the original post that started this thread by Pilgrim, you will find that one of the tests used to discern anti-christ is the source of the information - specifically - is the source from flesh and blood as it relates to Christ, or is it "other"? Paul's source is clearly of the "other" type, while the disciples source is flesh and blood - a real man sent from God to speak for God and to act for God. A man of flesh and blood. His Disciples, also men of flesh and blood. Paul's source? Non flesh and blood.

 

[Origen]

Much like Joseph Smith got his information from a "divine source", according to Joseph Smith. Or the leader of any new/old religion got their information directly from God, by revelation, according to whatever Revelator you believe.

If you look above to the original post that started this thread by Pilgrim, you will find that one of the tests used to discern anti-christ is the source of the information - specifically - is the source from flesh and blood as it relates to Christ, or is it "other"? Paul's source is clearly of the "other" type, while the disciples source is flesh and blood - a real man sent from God to speak for God and to act for God. A man of flesh and blood. His Disciples, also men of flesh and blood. Paul's source? Non flesh and blood.

The point is what the Greek text says\means and the point Paul is trying to emphasize and why.

 

[Stravinsk]

Philippians 2:7

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Strongs g3667 (likeness):

1. that which has been made after the likeness of something
   
   A. a figure, image, likeness, representation. B. likeness i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity
   
   
   Same word is used in Romans 8:3
   
   For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
   
   
   
   
   Flesh? Or "likeness of flesh". The second suggests something that appears real to the senses, but is not actually real. Why use this modifier if Christ was a man of real flesh and blood?
   

 

[pinacled]

Ole sh'aul spoke of two mirrors and strength to those who focus.

 

[pinacled]

Philippians 2:7

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Strongs g3667 (likeness):

1. that which has been made after the likeness of something
   
   A. a figure, image, likeness, representation. B. likeness i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity
   
   
   Same word is used in Romans 8:3
   
   For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
   
   
   
   
   Flesh? Or "likeness of flesh". The second suggests something that appears real to the senses, but is not actually real. Why use this modifier if Christ was a man of real flesh and blood?
   

8 Bible verses about Mirrors

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