Sunshine and puppies

[atpollard]

A new topic to avoid crapping all over another atopic

If life were as simple as "believe in God" or "don't believe in God" with consequences for each of two options then we're looking at a classic situation covered by Pascal's Wager. You might as well believe in God because the consequences for being wrong are a wasted life of no consequence if there is no God, or eternity in torment if there is a God. Sadly this very simplistic scenario doesn't even begin to cover the huge range of possibilities, claims and counterclaims from different religions, expectations of different deities and punishments for failing to comply and so on. If we spend our lives in devoted service to Yahweh and Jesus but it turns out that the Muslims were right we potentially still face eternal condemnation for failing to adequately honor Mohammed.

It's also a huge oversimplification to say that every religion promises sunshine and puppies. People of all faiths suffer hardships, illnesses, natural disasters and the like. Not all of them throw in the towel because their religion promised them something better.

MY PREMISE:
There are 3 possibilities with respect to the interrelationship between God and Man:

1. ATHEISM: There is no “god” so man is on his own.
2. EVERY RELIGION EXCEPT TRUE CHRISTIANITY: Man can perform some action to appease God (the gods) to prevent bad things and make good things happen (sacrificial appeasement).
3. BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY: Man cannot prevent suffering in a fallen world, God loves man enough to do everything necessary to carry us through this life and gather us to himself in the next.

Let’s start with ISLAM and the statement: “If we spend our lives in devoted service to Yahweh and Jesus but it turns out that the Muslims were right we potentially still face eternal condemnation for failing to adequately honor Mohammed.”

Just for the sake of argument, let us accept that “There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is His Prophet.”

• According to the Qu’ran, the “people of the Book” will go to Hell, however, it is not because of our failure to honor Mohammed. We will be in Hell for the same reason most Muslims will be in Hell ... our life will be judged based on whether our good deeds outweigh our sins. Those whose sins weigh more than their good deeds are condemned to fire.
• Sunni Muslims emphasize jihad (holy war) as a salvific and purifying action to gain special access to Paradise.
• Setting aside any questions of situational ethics or universal morality that may be inherent in Islam or lacking in its martyrs ... of the three options presented above, Islam falls into group 2: It is the GOOD DEEDS done by men (daily prayers, abstaining from alcohol and pork, trip to Mecca) that constitute the offering to “Allah” to appease his wrath and purchase his favor.
• If Allah is the true “god”, then god has no love for men and we can never be ”good enough”. All men are damned irrespective of beliefs and Paradise is full of god’s mass murderers. No human being has any hope.

Life experiences tell us that “God” cannot be bribed to prevent trouble in our lives (No matter what the Prosperity Preachers say). Therefore, empirical reality indicates that Islam (like all Religions in the second group) must be false.

That leaves ATHEISM and BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY as the only two remaining contenders for TRUTH.
(Questions or comments welcome.)

 

[pinacled]

A new topic to avoid crapping all over another atopic



MY PREMISE:
There are 3 possibilities with respect to the interrelationship between God and Man:

1. ATHEISM: There is no “god” so man is on his own.
2. EVERY RELIGION EXCEPT TRUE CHRISTIANITY: Man can perform some action to appease God (the gods) to prevent bad things and make good things happen (sacrificial appeasement).
3. BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY: Man cannot prevent suffering in a fallen world, God loves man enough to do everything necessary to carry us through this life and gather us to himself in the next.

Let’s start with ISLAM and the statement: “If we spend our lives in devoted service to Yahweh and Jesus but it turns out that the Muslims were right we potentially still face eternal condemnation for failing to adequately honor Mohammed.”

Just for the sake of argument, let us accept that “There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is His Prophet.”

• According to the Qu’ran, the “people of the Book” will go to Hell, however, it is not because of our failure to honor Mohammed. We will be in Hell for the same reason most Muslims will be in Hell ... our heart, weighed down by all of our sins, and lifted by all of our good deeds will be weighed on a scale against a feather. Those whose sins weigh more than a feather are condemned.
• The only exception to facing this test of human holiness is to be martyred in Jihad (holy war against the unbelievers) which causes one to be carried away to paradise without judgement and awarded a harem of virgins. So blowing yourself up in order to kill a bus load of Christian women and children is the HOLY ACTION that will gain you entrance to paradise.
• Setting aside any questions of situational ethics or universal morality that may be inherent in Islam or lacking in its martyrs ... of the three options presented above, Islam falls into group 2: It is the GOOD DEEDS done by men (daily prayers, abstaining from alcohol and pork, trip to Mecca) that constitute the offering to “Allah” to appease his wrath and purchase his favor.
• If Allah is the true “god”, then god has no love for men and we can never be ”good enough”. All men are damned irrespective of beliefs and Paradise is full of god’s mass murderers and rapists. No human being has any hope.

Life experiences tell us that “God” cannot be bribed to prevent trouble in our lives (No matter what the Prosperity Preachers say). Therefore, empirical reality indicates that Islam (like all Religions in the second group) must be false.

That leaves ATHEISM and BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY as the only two remaining contenders for TRUTH.
(Questions or comments welcome.)

Islam doesn't teach what you stated.

 

[JRT]

Marcus Aurelius wrote --- Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

 

[atpollard]

Islam doesn't teach what you stated.

I edited it to more closely reflect the Qu’ran and avoid bunny trails into the various Hadith.

None the less, Islam is about performing good acts and holy rituals to gain favor ... stop bad things from happening and cause good things to happen. That is a common trait of all of Group 2 and that is NOT what Biblical Christianity teaches.

In Islam, enough good deeds earn passage into Paradise.
In Christianity, even your BEST deeds are “mensural rags” before the Holiness of God.

 

[Stephen]

A new topic to avoid crapping all over another atopic



MY PREMISE:
There are 3 possibilities with respect to the interrelationship between God and Man:

1. ATHEISM: There is no “god” so man is on his own.
2. EVERY RELIGION EXCEPT TRUE CHRISTIANITY: Man can perform some action to appease God (the gods) to prevent bad things and make good things happen (sacrificial appeasement).
3. BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY: Man cannot prevent suffering in a fallen world, God loves man enough to do everything necessary to carry us through this life and gather us to himself in the next.

Let’s start with ISLAM and the statement: “If we spend our lives in devoted service to Yahweh and Jesus but it turns out that the Muslims were right we potentially still face eternal condemnation for failing to adequately honor Mohammed.”

Just for the sake of argument, let us accept that “There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is His Prophet.”

• According to the Qu’ran, the “people of the Book” will go to Hell, however, it is not because of our failure to honor Mohammed. We will be in Hell for the same reason most Muslims will be in Hell ... our life will be judged based on whether our good deeds outweigh our sins. Those whose sins weigh more than their good deeds are condemned to fire.
• Sunni Muslims emphasize jihad (holy war) as a salvific and purifying action to gain special access to Paradise.
• Setting aside any questions of situational ethics or universal morality that may be inherent in Islam or lacking in its martyrs ... of the three options presented above, Islam falls into group 2: It is the GOOD DEEDS done by men (daily prayers, abstaining from alcohol and pork, trip to Mecca) that constitute the offering to “Allah” to appease his wrath and purchase his favor.
• If Allah is the true “god”, then god has no love for men and we can never be ”good enough”. All men are damned irrespective of beliefs and Paradise is full of god’s mass murderers. No human being has any hope.

Life experiences tell us that “God” cannot be bribed to prevent trouble in our lives (No matter what the Prosperity Preachers say). Therefore, empirical reality indicates that Islam (like all Religions in the second group) must be false.

That leaves ATHEISM and BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY as the only two remaining contenders for TRUTH.
(Questions or comments welcome.)

What you appear to be espousing is Universalism.
If as you say. "God loves man enough to do everything necessary to carry us through this life and gather us to himself in the next." then God saves everyone, unless you believe God throws a dice to see who gets saved.

"In Christianity, even your BEST deeds are “mensural rags” before the Holiness of God" is not Biblical Christianity.

 

[Lamb]

What you appear to be espousing is Universalism.
If as you say. "God loves man enough to do everything necessary to carry us through this life and gather us to himself in the next." then God saves everyone, unless you believe God throws a dice to see who gets saved.

"In Christianity, even your BEST deeds are “mensural rags” before the Holiness of God" is not Biblical Christianity.

God is 100% responsible for our salvation. He is the one who gives us faith, He is the one strengthens that faith. What man does...He can reject that forgiveness won at the cross and damn himself. Did God die for everyone at the cross? Yes. Did He atone for the whole world? Yes. Will all have salvation then and eternal life with Him? No. Because man can reject Him. Without faith there is no salvation.

 

[tango]

A new topic to avoid crapping all over another atopic



MY PREMISE:
There are 3 possibilities with respect to the interrelationship between God and Man:

1. ATHEISM: There is no “god” so man is on his own.
2. EVERY RELIGION EXCEPT TRUE CHRISTIANITY: Man can perform some action to appease God (the gods) to prevent bad things and make good things happen (sacrificial appeasement).
3. BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY: Man cannot prevent suffering in a fallen world, God loves man enough to do everything necessary to carry us through this life and gather us to himself in the next

My concern here is that option (2) requires every single other faith to believe that doing the right things now results in some kind of blessings now. I'm not sure that's necessarily the case, hence my concern relating to your original post.

Other faiths are and have been persecuted. Look at the ethnic conflicts in the former Yugoslavia, the rounding up of Uighur Muslims in China, the treatment of Jews at the hands of Nazi Germany and so on. I'm not sure how those devout followers of faiths other than Christianity would describe their experiences as "preventing bad things" happening. And yet presumably at least most of them decided not to abandon their faith. The Islamic terrorists behind suicide bombings probably weren't looking forward to good things happening to them, other than in the afterlife where they hoped to receive their reward. They either never considered the possibility that their belief pattern was wrong, or were sufficiently convinced that they were right that they sacrificed everything to attain the goal they sought.

Let’s start with ISLAM and the statement: “If we spend our lives in devoted service to Yahweh and Jesus but it turns out that the Muslims were right we potentially still face eternal condemnation for failing to adequately honor Mohammed.”

Just for the sake of argument, let us accept that “There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is His Prophet.”

• According to the Qu’ran, the “people of the Book” will go to Hell, however, it is not because of our failure to honor Mohammed. We will be in Hell for the same reason most Muslims will be in Hell ... our life will be judged based on whether our good deeds outweigh our sins. Those whose sins weigh more than their good deeds are condemned to fire.
• Sunni Muslims emphasize jihad (holy war) as a salvific and purifying action to gain special access to Paradise.
• Setting aside any questions of situational ethics or universal morality that may be inherent in Islam or lacking in its martyrs ... of the three options presented above, Islam falls into group 2: It is the GOOD DEEDS done by men (daily prayers, abstaining from alcohol and pork, trip to Mecca) that constitute the offering to “Allah” to appease his wrath and purchase his favor.
• If Allah is the true “god”, then god has no love for men and we can never be ”good enough”. All men are damned irrespective of beliefs and Paradise is full of god’s mass murderers. No human being has any hope.

Life experiences tell us that “God” cannot be bribed to prevent trouble in our lives (No matter what the Prosperity Preachers say). Therefore, empirical reality indicates that Islam (like all Religions in the second group) must be false.

That leaves ATHEISM and BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY as the only two remaining contenders for TRUTH.
(Questions or comments welcome.)

And right here, even assuming your statements here an an accurate portrayal of the Islamic faith (it looks broadly reasonable based on my understanding, although with the caveat that there are denominations within Islam), you undermine your own argument.

The belief expressed here is that if our good deeds outweigh our bad deeds we go to Paradise, and if not we are condemned to fire. Doing good deeds isn't about the hope of appeasing an angry deity in this life, it's about hoping to earn a place in paradise in the next life. You subsequently contradict yourself - you open with the comment of hoping to earn a place in Paradise by doing enough good deeds and then, a mere three points later, assert that "all men are damned irrespective of beliefs". If the faiths that require a place in Paradise be earned are correct we can all have hope, we just can't have any certainty until the final judgment whether we did enough. When I buy a lottery ticket I hope for a big win even though it's vanishingly unlikely.

This is clearly a very different proposition to Christianity, that presents the notion that our sins are forgiven and we are given a place in heaven rather than having to earn it. The beliefs being so totally different doesn't present any evidence as to which is correct, nor indeed that either is correct or they can't both be correct.

The existence of a god does not necessarily require that the god is in any way benevolent, nor does it require that there are no other gods. If a god created us it does not necessarily imply that the god cares about us. The existence of a god does not rule out other possibilities, such as the god created some other form of life (we'd probably call them aliens) that in turn created us. None of these stances are consistent with biblical Christianity and yet that alone does not provide evidence to consider them false - if two theories are in direct contradiction to each other all we can logically conclude is they cannot both be true.

 

[Stephen]

God is 100% responsible for our salvation. He is the one who gives us faith, He is the one strengthens that faith. What man does...He can reject that forgiveness won at the cross and damn himself. Did God die for everyone at the cross? Yes. Did He atone for the whole world? Yes. Will all have salvation then and eternal life with Him? No. Because man can reject Him. Without faith there is no salvation.

The couch potato Christian. “I have nothing to do but lie here and Christ will do it all.”

Not for the couch potato to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12)

Not for the couch potato to run the race (1Cor 9:24-27)

Not for the couch potato to be rich in good works (1Tim 6:18) or

Nor are the couch potato which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.(Ti 3:8)

But the couch potato is one whose end shall be according to their works (2Cor 11:15)

Try reading Mt 25:31-46 for the fate of those who think faith is enough and no effort is required by them.

 

[Stephen]

@atpollard @tango
What is "biblical Christianity" and who defines it?

 

[tango]

@atpollard @tango
What is "biblical Christianity" and who defines it?

Biblical Christianity is defined by the Bible. Obviously this leaves much scope to argue over whose interpretation of the Bible matters - in this context I was merely using the term as presented by the OP. We could easily lose the "biblical" prefix and I think my post would still work.

 

[Lamb]

The couch potato Christian. “I have nothing to do but lie here and Christ will do it all.”

Not for the couch potato to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12)

Not for the couch potato to run the race (1Cor 9:24-27)

Not for the couch potato to be rich in good works (1Tim 6:18) or

Nor are the couch potato which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.(Ti 3:8)

But the couch potato is one whose end shall be according to their works (2Cor 11:15)

Try reading Mt 25:31-46 for the fate of those who think faith is enough and no effort is required by them.

Thanks be to God that HE saves us. We "work out" our salvation. Not "work for". I cannot save myself. I can't be pure enough that God requires which is why Jesus (who is the pure lamb) died in my place. I'm forgiven. I didn't have to work for that at all.

 

[Stephen]

Thanks be to God that HE saves us. We "work out" our salvation. Not "work for". I cannot save myself. I can't be pure enough that God requires which is why Jesus (who is the pure lamb) died in my place. I'm forgiven. I didn't have to work for that at all.

While you are thinking about the other quotes I gave you here is another:
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." (Mk 16:16)

 

[Stephen]

Biblical Christianity is defined by the Bible. Obviously this leaves much scope to argue over whose interpretation of the Bible matters - in this context I was merely using the term as presented by the OP. We could easily lose the "biblical" prefix and I think my post would still work.

So where in the Bible do I find this definition?

 

[tango]

So where in the Bible do I find this definition?

What's the purpose of your question here? If it makes it easier for you, get rid of the prefix "biblical" and see if the question is still relevant.

 

[Stephen]

What's the purpose of your question here? If it makes it easier for you, get rid of the prefix "biblical" and see if the question is still relevant.

Well you said "Biblical Christianity is defined by the Bible". There are many arguments about who is a Christian and what beliefs are basic to Christianity and I would be interested to know where a definition is in the Bible. But if you don't want to go there at the moment that's OK.

 

[Lamb]

While you are thinking about the other quotes I gave you here is another:
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." (Mk 16:16)

That fits exactly with what I said!

 

[Stephen]

That fits exactly with what I said!

Yes, there is something we have to do.

 

[Lamb]

Yes, there is something we have to do.

No, because even Baptism is what God does to us! We can't baptize ourselves.

 

[pinacled]

No, because even Baptism is what God does to us! We can't baptize ourselves.

I believe Stephen is seeking a citation from ole sh'aul.

Romans 10

 

[atpollard]

My concern here is that option (2) requires every single other faith to believe that doing the right things now results in some kind of blessings now.

Pick a religion and explain to me that it’s proponents do good deeds with no expectation of benefits in THIS life.
I am not going to prove the belief of ALL OTHER religions to your satisfaction.

As I have stated, it is my observation that all other religions practice “good deeds” for benefits in THIS LIFE (and often the next). Islam does not promote the Caliphate and Shira Law for benefits in the afterlife ... Islam is focused on mastery in this life based on the example of conquest through feigned weakness, political agitation and militant conquest as the community progressively grows in power ... following the example set by Mohammad.

I welcome proof that I am wrong. Quote the Quran or Hadith and explain that Islam promises nothing but trouble in this world and all hope is in the next world.

Hinduism is based on making offerings to one of the thousands of gods to bring about good fortune (IN THIS WORLD).

Buddhism teaches that unhappiness in THIS LIFE is tied to our bondage to the material world, so they seek asceticism as a means to break the ties of the material world to bring HAPPINESS IN THIS LIFE.

Animism is about performing rituals to defend against evil spirits that cause illness and to appease nature spirits (like the spirit of the deer) to avoid offending them and to bring luck in the hunt. That is about actions to gain benefit in THIS LIFE.

If I am wrong, then tell me what religion teaches otherwise. The fact that all people suffer does not change what the religions teach the rituals are for. Why does a Muslim abstain from pork and pray 5 times a day? Is it just “protection from Hell” or is it about favor in THIS LIFE?