Sirach allusion in James?

[atpollard]

“Raba [again] said to Rabbah b. Mari: whence can be derived the popular saying, ‘A bad palm will usually make its way to a grove of barren trees’? – He replied: This matter was written in the Pentateuch, repeated in the Prophets, mentioned a third time in the Hagiographa, and also learnt in a Mishnah and taught in a baraitha: It is stated in the Pentateuch as written, So Esau went unto Ishmael [Genesis 28:9], repeated in the prophets, as written, And there gathered themselves to Jephthah idle men and they went out with him [Judges 11:3], mentioned a third time in the Hagiographa, as written: Every fowl dwells near its kind and man near his equal [Sirach 13:15].” (b. B. Qam. 92b; Soncino ed.).

Tag team, huh.
I was curious if HE had read any of what he so authoritatively throws out as proof.

Since you chose to respond:
Have you read it or did you just cut and paste from a Google search?
Do you understand what is being said and why they are discussing it?
Do you understand the conflict between the Palestinian Hagiographa and the Alexandrian Hagiographa and why that is critical to this quote?

 

[Andrew]

Tag team, huh.
I was curious if HE had read any of what he so authoritatively throws out as proof.

Since you chose to respond:
Have you read it or did you just cut and paste from a Google search?
Do you understand what is being said and why they are discussing it?
Do you understand the conflict between the Palestinian Hagiographa and the Alexandrian Hagiographa and why that is critical to this quote?

I have discussions with Talmudic jews all the time, supposedly everything that is contained in the Talmud is tied directly to the sages and is considered Holy work, even the commentaries.
In my opinion the Talmud is nothing more than blasphemous Rabbanic garbage, a religion of its own, younger than Christianity itself.
Even so, they would not quote a Greek Apocryphal work in their most holiest book equal to the Torah if not more so.

I have been reading a study book of the Talmud and it's not pleasant to read one bit.

According to many Talmudic Rabbis, the Talmud is the Savior of Judaism being the very preservation of Judaism, not by God but of their own accord.. they truly are a new religion created by the Pharisees in response to the Temple destruction.

 

[atpollard]

I am concerned that ONLY the Alexandrian Hagiographa (the Greek translation of the OT used by the Hellenistic Egyptian Jews) includes Sirach. Experts have raised the opinion that the Alexandrian Hagiographa was a local Egyptian phenomenon and not part of the general diaspora. Personally, I cannot help but see the similarities in thinking between the arguments presented in the quoted section that quotes from ‘Sirach’ and the Gnosticism that grew in the same area from the same intellectual soil.

I see signs of a heretical people grasping at “secret knowledge” from their ‘special books’ and I cannot help but think of the warning: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. (1 Corinthians 8:1). I see in this Rabbinical argument, knowledge puffing up little men … that hardly “recommends” Sirach as something to read to become just like them.

So the argument from @NathanH83 and @Andrew boils down to “Gnostic Jews accepted Sirach into their unique Egyptian ‘Bible’ so we should accept it, too.”

That seems a peculiar view for a Christian.

 

[NathanH83]

I am concerned that ONLY the Alexandrian Hagiographa (the Greek translation of the OT used by the Hellenistic Egyptian Jews) includes Sirach. Experts have raised the opinion that the Alexandrian Hagiographa was a local Egyptian phenomenon and not part of the general diaspora. Personally, I cannot help but see the similarities in thinking between the arguments presented in the quoted section that quotes from ‘Sirach’ and the Gnosticism that grew in the same area from the same intellectual soil.

I see signs of a heretical people grasping at “secret knowledge” from their ‘special books’ and I cannot help but think of the warning: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. (1 Corinthians 8:1). I see in this Rabbinical argument, knowledge puffing up little men … that hardly “recommends” Sirach as something to read to become just like them.

So the argument from @NathanH83 and @Andrew boils down to “Gnostic Jews accepted Sirach into their unique Egyptian ‘Bible’ so we should accept it, too.”

That seems a peculiar view for a Christian.

I don’t know what “secret knowledge” you’re taking about, but the church councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage are not secrets. The King James contained Sirach ever since 1611, and that’s no secret.

 

[atpollard]

I don’t know what “secret knowledge” you’re taking about, but the church councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage are not secrets. The King James contained Sirach ever since 1611, and that’s no secret.

You have a remarkably selective understanding.
One moment you quote Talmudic Rabbinical references as authority, and the next you have no idea what a reference to “secret knowledge” means when discussing Gnosticism.

I do not believe you, so I guess this conversation is over.

 

[Andrew]

You have a remarkably selective understanding.
One moment you quote Talmudic Rabbinical references as authority, and the next you have no idea what a reference to “secret knowledge” means when discussing Gnosticism.

I do not believe you, so I guess this conversation is over.

lol he never said the Talmud had any authority, just that the Jews acknowledge it

 

[NathanH83]

You have a remarkably selective understanding.
One moment you quote Talmudic Rabbinical references as authority, and the next you have no idea what a reference to “secret knowledge” means when discussing Gnosticism.

I do not believe you, so I guess this conversation is over.

I honestly don’t have a clue what you’re talking about