Sirach allusion in James?

[Andrew]

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:13

Do not say, “Because of the Lord I left the right way”; for he will not do what he hates.
Do not say, “It was he who led me astray”; for he had no need of a sinful man
Sirach 15:11-12

---------------

Thoughts?

 

[atpollard]

Thoughts?

Thought: “Martin Luther may have had a point.”
(sorry, I couldn’t resist).

 

[Andrew]

Thought: “Martin Luther may have had a point.”
(sorry, I couldn’t resist).

Do explain what you mean

 

[atpollard]

Is James 1:13 true?

(James 1:13 KJV)

“Let no man say when he is tempted, [G3985] I am tempted [G3985] of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth [G3985] he [G3985] any man:”​

(Genesis 22:1 LXX)

“καὶ ἐγένετο μετὰ τὰ ῥήματα ταῦτα ὁ θεὸςἐπείραζεν [G3985] τὸν Αβρααμ καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτόνΑβρααμ Αβρααμ ὁ δὲ εἶπεν ἰδοὺ ἐγώ”​

(Genesis 22:1 KJV)

“And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt [G3985] Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.”​

Same Greek word.
James has a LOT of verses that need “explaining”.
I do not advocate it’s rejection, but I can appreciate why theologians have asked hard questions about its inclusion. For us, how do we … as faithful Christians in the 21st Century … reconcile James 1 and Genesis 22?

 

[Josiah]

Nope.

If I wrote, "he went" does that prove that my writing is thus the inerrant, divinely-inspired, fully inscripturated words of God if those very words can be found in Scripture... or perhaps not found but you personally speculate that it's alluded? Of course not. And even if a book was QUOTED, such as "In the book of Sirach we read..." would that mean ergo Sirach is the inerrant, fully canonical, divinely inscripturated words of God? Nope, no more than if your pastor said, "The Supreme Court of the United States said....." would mean ergo that everything from the SCOTUS is inerraant, fully canonical, divinely inscripturated words of God, it would mean only one thing: it's being quoted. LOTS of things are quoted.... zillions of things.... doesn't make them ergo inerrant, fully canonical, divinely inscripturated. Obviously. But of course that's not the case here, NOTHING is being quoted at all.



.

 

[atpollard]

Do explain what you mean

Maybe Martin Luther was right to question whether James is “God-breathed” (as a joke).

 

[Andrew]

Is James 1:13 true?

(James 1:13 KJV)

“Let no man say when he is tempted, [G3985] I am tempted [G3985] of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth [G3985] he [G3985] any man:”​

(Genesis 22:1 LXX)

“καὶ ἐγένετο μετὰ τὰ ῥήματα ταῦτα ὁ θεὸςἐπείραζεν [G3985] τὸν Αβρααμ καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτόνΑβρααμ Αβρααμ ὁ δὲ εἶπεν ἰδοὺ ἐγώ”​

(Genesis 22:1 KJV)

“And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt [G3985] Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.”​

Same Greek word.
James has a LOT of verses that need “explaining”.
I do not advocate it’s rejection, but I can appreciate why theologians have asked hard questions about its inclusion. For us, how do we … as faithful Christians in the 21st Century … reconcile James 1 and Genesis 22?

What's to explain? God did not tempt Abraham to sin, the point of James and Sirach was to rebuke those who throw God under the bus by putting the blame on Him for one's own wickidness.

Semantics does not always dictate context, the serpent tempted Eve, God tempted Abraham, big difference.

 

[Andrew]

Nope.

If I wrote, "he went" does that prove that my writing is thus the inerrant, divinely-inspired, fully inscripturated words of God if those very words can be found in Scripture... or perhaps not found but you personally speculate that it's alluded? Of course not. And even if a book was QUOTED, such as "In the book of Sirach we read..." would that mean ergo Sirach is the inerrant, fully canonical, divinely inscripturated words of God? Nope, no more than if your pastor said, "The Supreme Court of the United States said....." would mean ergo that everything from the SCOTUS is inerraant, fully canonical, divinely inscripturated words of God, it would mean only one thing: it's being quoted. LOTS of things are quoted.... zillions of things.... doesn't make them ergo inerrant, fully canonical, divinely inscripturated. Obviously. But of course that's not the case here, NOTHING is being quoted at all.



.

Yes yes.. let us dismiss allusions but only for books we don't like

 

[atpollard]

What's to explain?

J: Let no man say when he is tempted, [G3985] I am tempted [G3985] of God

G: And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt [G3985] Abraham

I’ll let you figure out “what’s to explain”.

 

[Andrew]

J: Let no man say when he is tempted, [G3985] I am tempted [G3985] of God

G: And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt [G3985] Abraham

I’ll let you figure out “what’s to explain”.

Abraham never said "I am tempted of God"

 

[atpollard]

Abraham never said "I am tempted of God"

Now it is your turn to be pedantic … I pass the torch.

 

[Andrew]

Now it is your turn to be pedantic … I pass the torch.

Ok, I'll give an attempt to be pedant in a cunodrim you expressed earlier in another thread...

Ahem...

What sayeth you o atpollard, concerning that of which thou hast spoken of concerning Charity being brought forth of the Greek tongue Agape and Agape being unto Love?
Art not thine Love also unto the giving forth of help for thy lowly and poorist amongst thee?
See now how Tobias being of no awareness of the Angel in his presence and how he offered up alms to the wondering stranger?
Indeed his faith and good deed of charity was witnessed of an Angel of the Lord, and thou knoweth that no Angel of the Lord hath participation with the wicked but among only the faithful as shewn in this manner.

 

[NathanH83]

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:13

Do not say, “Because of the Lord I left the right way”; for he will not do what he hates.
Do not say, “It was he who led me astray”; for he had no need of a sinful man
Sirach 15:11-12

---------------

Thoughts?

That proves it. Sirach belongs in the Bible.

 

[atpollard]

That proves it. Sirach belongs in the Bible.

Why?

 

[NathanH83]

Why?

Why not?

 

[Andrew]

Why?

Although I could rightly reject Sirach for the time being, I accept it so as not to waste time by getting involved in a dispute about the books received in the Hebrew canon.

You would do good by following Martin Luther's example as shown in the above quote, until you have evidence to confirm your pre determined bias, just accept the traditional approach in respects to Sirach

 

[NathanH83]

Although I could rightly reject Sirach for the time being, I accept it so as not to waste time by getting involved in a dispute about the books received in the Hebrew canon.

You would do good by following Martin Luther's example as shown in the above quote, until you have evidence to confirm your pre determined bias, just accept the traditional approach in respects to Sirach

Sirach wasn’t written in Hebrew. It was invented by the Catholic Church.

Oh wait, it was found in Hebrew in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and quoted as scripture in the Talmud.

 

[Andrew]

Sirach wasn’t written in Hebrew. It was invented by the Catholic Church.

Oh wait, it was found in Hebrew in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and quoted as scripture in the Talmud.

Bazinga!

 

[atpollard]

quoted as scripture in the Talmud.

Where was Sirach quoted as scripture in the Talmud?

 

[Andrew]

Where was Sirach quoted as scripture in the Talmud?

Quick copy pasta.. NOTE:
Hagiographa = The Writings in the TaNaKh

“Raba [again] said to Rabbah b. Mari: whence can be derived the popular saying, ‘A bad palm will usually make its way to a grove of barren trees’? – He replied: This matter was written in the Pentateuch, repeated in the Prophets, mentioned a third time in the Hagiographa, and also learnt in a Mishnah and taught in a baraitha: It is stated in the Pentateuch as written, So Esau went unto Ishmael [Genesis 28:9], repeated in the prophets, as written, And there gathered themselves to Jephthah idle men and they went out with him [Judges 11:3], mentioned a third time in the Hagiographa, as written: Every fowl dwells near its kind and man near his equal [Sirach 13:15].” (b. B. Qam. 92b; Soncino ed.).


“…And R Aha b. Jacob said: There is still another Heaven above the heads of the living creatures, for it is written: And over the heads of the living creature there was a likeness of a firmament, like the colour of the terrible ice, stretched forth over their heads above [Ezekiel 1:22]. Thus far you have permission to speak, thenceforward you have not permission to speak, for so it is written in the Book of Ben Sira: Seek not things that are too hard for thee, and search not out things that are hidden from thee. The things that have been permitted thee, think thereupon; thou hast no business with the things that are secret [Sirach 3:21-22]” (b. Hag. 13a; Soncino ed.).


Also.
Yer. Ber. 11b; Yer. Hag. 77c; Yer. Ta'an. 66d; Hag. 13a; Niddah 16b; Gen. R. 8, 10, 73; Lev. R. 33; Tan. Wayishlah 8; Tan., Mikkez. 10; Tan. Hukkat. 1