JustTheFacts
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2024
- Messages
- 308
- Gender
- Male
- Religious Affiliation
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
- No
I thought I'd share an exchange from another site that I had this morning. From Gary who used to consider himself a Christian, then became full of doubts:
"I like your thinking, John. I too find it odd that Protestants, who regularly deride Catholic traditions, accept without question two very critical Catholic traditions: the traditional authorship of the Gospels and the New Testament canon. Why?? Answer: Because second century (catholic) bishops and other churchmen said so! Why do modern Protestants (including evangelicals) distrust catholic churchmen and their traditions from later centuries but trust as “gospel” catholic churchmen and their traditions from the first and second centuries?? It makes no sense. Churchmen of all centuries are primarily interested in one thing: the preservation of…”the Church”. They will LIE if they believe it is beneficial to the cause of the Church. We know as a fact that catholic churchmen lied in later centuries so why should we take their word from the first two? We know that the churchmen altered the ending of the Gospel of Mark. We know that churchmen added the stories of the Woman Caught in Adultery and the Story of the Angel Stirring the Pool of Bethesda. You believe there is evidence that churchmen made other significant alterations to these four texts. Why should modern people trust four ancient books which we know were tampered with? Even if the four canonical Gospels were signed legal documents (affidavits), written by alleged eyewitnesses whose identity and authorship of the statements had been authenticated by civil officials (which they are NOT!), we know the “statements” were tampered with after they had been written, by an institution whose existence very much depends on the story being told in those texts. Do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth was bodily resurrected from the dead? If so, why?"
In response, I posted the following:
Finally, there is a critical thinker on this site. I got shivers when I read your response because it seems like every Christian is brainwashed into believing what they are told, rather than thinking for themselves. Don't ask them about the passage:
18 Little children, these are the end times, and as you heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen. By this we know that it is the final hour. 19 They went out from us, but they didn’t belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have continued with us. But they left, that they might be revealed that none of them belong to us. (1 John 2:18-19)
John tells the world that the disciples started the Church but the Church became completely corrupted while they were still alive. Rather than dealing with the truth of the written words of God, religious leaders create theology when something doesn't fit their narrative because they need to protect their church. The fact is the false teachers killed Jesus, persecuted and killed the disciples, then took over the Church of Jesus Christ. When religious leaders argue with you for saying this, ask them what happened to all those corrupt people--did they get halos on their head and change their ways? They will start shaking and walk away in response.
In answer to your question, there is no doubt that Jesus of Nazareth was bodily resurrected from the dead. You can separate the truth of the word of God from the lies if you remove everything supporting their motive to build the story of Peter. John was the special disciple, not Peter. The false teachers left ample breadcrumbs that prove their deceit. Matthew's author copied accounts from Mark's author nearly word for word, yet the two passages that create the Catholic Church were copied but modified. Check them out for yourself--Peter walking on water and the most famous verses of all, Matthew 16:18-19.
I’m not ignoring providing details to prove the resurrection of Jesus, it just takes a long time to get there. The perfect way to find the truth is to examine each resurrection account. If Jesus is disguised in the account it is valid. If Jesus isn’t disguised it’s a fraud.
I'm not ignoring providing details to prove the resurrection of Jesus, it just takes a long time to get there. The perfect way to find the truth is to examine each resurrection account. If Jesus is disguised in the account it is valid. If Jesus isn't disguised it's a fraud.
"I like your thinking, John. I too find it odd that Protestants, who regularly deride Catholic traditions, accept without question two very critical Catholic traditions: the traditional authorship of the Gospels and the New Testament canon. Why?? Answer: Because second century (catholic) bishops and other churchmen said so! Why do modern Protestants (including evangelicals) distrust catholic churchmen and their traditions from later centuries but trust as “gospel” catholic churchmen and their traditions from the first and second centuries?? It makes no sense. Churchmen of all centuries are primarily interested in one thing: the preservation of…”the Church”. They will LIE if they believe it is beneficial to the cause of the Church. We know as a fact that catholic churchmen lied in later centuries so why should we take their word from the first two? We know that the churchmen altered the ending of the Gospel of Mark. We know that churchmen added the stories of the Woman Caught in Adultery and the Story of the Angel Stirring the Pool of Bethesda. You believe there is evidence that churchmen made other significant alterations to these four texts. Why should modern people trust four ancient books which we know were tampered with? Even if the four canonical Gospels were signed legal documents (affidavits), written by alleged eyewitnesses whose identity and authorship of the statements had been authenticated by civil officials (which they are NOT!), we know the “statements” were tampered with after they had been written, by an institution whose existence very much depends on the story being told in those texts. Do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth was bodily resurrected from the dead? If so, why?"
In response, I posted the following:
Finally, there is a critical thinker on this site. I got shivers when I read your response because it seems like every Christian is brainwashed into believing what they are told, rather than thinking for themselves. Don't ask them about the passage:
18 Little children, these are the end times, and as you heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen. By this we know that it is the final hour. 19 They went out from us, but they didn’t belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have continued with us. But they left, that they might be revealed that none of them belong to us. (1 John 2:18-19)
John tells the world that the disciples started the Church but the Church became completely corrupted while they were still alive. Rather than dealing with the truth of the written words of God, religious leaders create theology when something doesn't fit their narrative because they need to protect their church. The fact is the false teachers killed Jesus, persecuted and killed the disciples, then took over the Church of Jesus Christ. When religious leaders argue with you for saying this, ask them what happened to all those corrupt people--did they get halos on their head and change their ways? They will start shaking and walk away in response.
In answer to your question, there is no doubt that Jesus of Nazareth was bodily resurrected from the dead. You can separate the truth of the word of God from the lies if you remove everything supporting their motive to build the story of Peter. John was the special disciple, not Peter. The false teachers left ample breadcrumbs that prove their deceit. Matthew's author copied accounts from Mark's author nearly word for word, yet the two passages that create the Catholic Church were copied but modified. Check them out for yourself--Peter walking on water and the most famous verses of all, Matthew 16:18-19.
I’m not ignoring providing details to prove the resurrection of Jesus, it just takes a long time to get there. The perfect way to find the truth is to examine each resurrection account. If Jesus is disguised in the account it is valid. If Jesus isn’t disguised it’s a fraud.
I'm not ignoring providing details to prove the resurrection of Jesus, it just takes a long time to get there. The perfect way to find the truth is to examine each resurrection account. If Jesus is disguised in the account it is valid. If Jesus isn't disguised it's a fraud.
