Revelation 14:1-5

[MoreCoffee]

The Lamb and the 144,000

Revelation 14:1And I beheld, and lo a lamb stood upon mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the noise of many waters, and as the voice of great thunder; and the voice which I heard, was as the voice of harpers, harping on their harps. 3And they sung as it were a new canticle, before the throne, and before the four living creatures, and the ancients; and no man could say the canticle, but those hundred forty-four thousand, who were purchased from the earth. 4These are they who were not defiled with women: for they are virgins. These follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, the firstfruits to God and to the Lamb: 5And in their mouth there was found no lie; for they are without spot before the throne of God. (DRB)

Some read this passage literally and some figuratively.

If taken literally then there are some consequences:

• 144,000 have the name Jesus and the Father's name written on their forehead
• There's a sound like harpers playing their harps
• the 144,000 sing a new song before God, the 4 living creatures, and the 24 elders in heaven
• only the 144,000 can sing that song
• the 144,000 were purchased from the Earth
• the 144,000 are virgin males who had never been defiled with women
• the 144,000 follow Jesus no matter where he goes
• the 144,000 are the first fruits to God and to Jesus
• the 144,000 do not lie because they are spotless before the throne of God.

If it is taken figuratively then the task of the interpreter is to interpret the figurative language.

Jehovah's witnesses treat the passage mostly literally but somewhat figuratively.

What does your most trusted commentary say, or if you trust none then what do you say about this passage?

 

[Lees]

@MoreCoffee

How do you interpret it? It's your post.

Lees

 

[MoreCoffee]

How do you interpret it? It's your post.

You don't have a favourite commentary?

 

[atpollard]

“In Revelation 7, the 144,000 are seen at the beginning of the Great Tribulation. In Revelation 14, it shows them in triumph at the end of the Great Tribulation.”
- David Guzik

 

[Lees]

@MoreCoffee

How do you interpret it? It's your post? You're scared to say your own...arn't you?

I see. Much easier to bank off others interpretations, and learn something. Of course I'm assuming you don't know, which is why you are really asking. Or you can critisize others without revealing your own.

It's your post. Tell us your interpretation and your favorite commentaries that you learned it from. If in fact you have one. I know...the pope. What does the pope say about the 144,000. Or does he?

Does the pope ever teach Bible classes? How about St. Jude. What did he have to say?

Lees

 

[MoreCoffee]

How do you interpret it? It's your post? You're scared to say your own...arn't you?

It's part of the liturgy in the temple in heaven.

 

[Andrew]

It's not a literal number, it's the 12 tribes that went "out and multiplied", Jesus is the suffering servant and light unto the world, he represents the fullness of Israel

 

[Spindle4]

The Lamb and the 144,000

Revelation 14:1And I beheld, and lo a lamb stood upon mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the noise of many waters, and as the voice of great thunder; and the voice which I heard, was as the voice of harpers, harping on their harps. 3And they sung as it were a new canticle, before the throne, and before the four living creatures, and the ancients; and no man could say the canticle, but those hundred forty-four thousand, who were purchased from the earth. 4These are they who were not defiled with women: for they are virgins. These follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, the firstfruits to God and to the Lamb: 5And in their mouth there was found no lie; for they are without spot before the throne of God. (DRB)

Some read this passage literally and some figuratively.

If taken literally then there are some consequences:

• 144,000 have the name Jesus and the Father's name written on their forehead
• There's a sound like harpers playing their harps
• the 144,000 sing a new song before God, the 4 living creatures, and the 24 elders in heaven
• only the 144,000 can sing that song
• the 144,000 were purchased from the Earth
• the 144,000 are virgin males who had never been defiled with women
• the 144,000 follow Jesus no matter where he goes
• the 144,000 are the first fruits to God and to Jesus
• the 144,000 do not lie because they are spotless before the throne of God.

If it is taken figuratively then the task of the interpreter is to interpret the figurative language.

Jehovah's witnesses treat the passage mostly literally but somewhat figuratively.

What does your most trusted commentary say, or if you trust none then what do you say about this passage?

Check out David Jeremiah on the subject. He weaves 100% literal celebate Jewish ministers numbering 144thousand from the 12 tribes mentioned in Rev 7 into his Turning Point presentation. Link: DavidJeremiah.org

Also the Believer's Bible Commentary has this on Rev 7.

D. The Saved in the Great Tribulation (Chap. 7)
Chapter 7 comes between the sixth and seventh seals and introduces us to two important companies of believers. The chapter answers the question at the end of chapter 6, “Who is able to stand?” Those described in this chapter will stand in the sense that they will be spared to enter the Millennium with Christ.
7:1-4 The vision of four angels standing at the four corners of the earth and holding back the four winds means that a great storm is about to burst on the world. However, the angels are told to delay this terrible destruction until the servants of God have been sealed on their foreheads. Twelve thousand persons from each of the twelve tribes of Israel are then sealed.
7:5-8 The 144,000 are clearly Jewish believers, not members of some 20th century Gentile cult. These Jewish saints are saved during the early part of the Tribulation. The seal on their foreheads brands them as belonging to God and guarantees that they will be preserved alive during the ensuing seven years.
Two tribes are absent from the list: Ephraim and Dan. Perhaps they are omitted because they were leaders in idolatry. Some think that the Antichrist will come from Dan (Gen_49:17). The tribes of Joseph and Levi are included in the list, Joseph doubtless taking the place of his son, Ephraim.

 

[Lees]

I am Dispensationalist, so any commentary on the book of (Revelation) that I would consider of value, would have to be dispensational.

As a Dispensationalist, I interpret the Bible literally, meaning there is allowance for figures of speech and symbols in the normal use of language. And of course (Revelation) has many symbols. But that doesn't mean everything in it is a symbol.

Because the 144,000 are so specifically identified in (Rev. 7:4-8) as 12,000 from each tribe of Israel, there is every reason to take it literally and no reason to take it figuratively. The same with (Rev. 14:1-5).

Every Christian interprets the Bible both literally and figuatively. So you have to have an answer as to why you determine something literal or figurative. In other words, in your method of interpreting the Bible, how do you come to the conclusion that something is literal or figurative?

For example: The description of Christ in (Rev. 1:11-18) The passage on the whole is to be taken literally. This is what John saw and how he is describing Jesus Christ who he is actually seeing. But in that description, he uses some figurative language. And the interpretation of such language or symbols is usually found in the Bible itself.

Lees

 

[MoreCoffee]

Revelation 14:1 Behold a Lamb, by which is divers times represented our Saviour Christ.
Revelation 14:3 They sung as it were a new canticle. In these visions, after persecutions, are sometimes introduced rejoicings to encourage the servants of God in their sufferings from the wicked world. ---
No man could say (or sing) the canticle, but those hundred forty-four thousand: by which are signified the elect, who were not defiled with women. Some expound this literally of those who always lived virgins; others understand all those who lived or died with a pure and clean heart, exempt from the corruption of vices, and of whom it is said, (ver. 5) that in their mouth was found no lie, and that they were without spot for the throne of God.
Revelation 14:4 These are they, &c. In the style of the prophets, by fornication is meant idolatry, and virginity signifies cleanness from all sacrilegious worship. These, therefore, are virgins in this sense, who have not fallen into the impurities of creature worship. But others, as St. Augustine, understand it of persons who have lived in continency. The first, however, is the more literal sense.

From Haydock's notes.

 

[Lees]

@MoreCoffee

No. The literal sense is that these 144,000 are 12,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel. Intersting how you ignored that and yet stated you were giving the 'literal sense'.

And whether you or Haydock is the one saying this, you have presented it. Thus you are responsible to answer for it.

Lees

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Seems to me the 144,000 is a figurative number. In Revelation 7:3-8 the 144,000 are sealed, then the very next verse says,
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;" which are descirbed in v14 as,
"...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

So, it may be that Jews of each tribe will be saved, but I rather doubt exactly 12,000 from each tribe, so figurative. Then the many, many gentile Christians are also saved; hence, verse 9: "a great multitude, which no man could number," which surely must have been far more than 144,000. This suggests that while some Jews will be save, far more gentiles will be saved.

A minister at my church once said, "The best commentary is the Bible."

 

[Spindle4]

Seems to me the 144,000 is a figurative number. In Revelation 7:3-8 the 144,000 are sealed, then the very next verse says,
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;" which are descirbed in v14 as,
"...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

So, it may be that Jews of each tribe will be saved, but I rather doubt exactly 12,000 from each tribe, so figurative. Then the many, many gentile Christians are also saved; hence, verse 9: "a great multitude, which no man could number," which surely must have been far more than 144,000. This suggests that while some Jews will be save, far more gentiles will be saved.

A minister at my church once said, "The best commentary is the Bible."

So if the Bible says 12,000 from each tribe that's what God will make happen.

 

[Lees]

Seems to me the 144,000 is a figurative number. In Revelation 7:3-8 the 144,000 are sealed, then the very next verse says,
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;" which are descirbed in v14 as,
"...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

So, it may be that Jews of each tribe will be saved, but I rather doubt exactly 12,000 from each tribe, so figurative. Then the many, many gentile Christians are also saved; hence, verse 9: "a great multitude, which no man could number," which surely must have been far more than 144,000. This suggests that while some Jews will be save, far more gentiles will be saved.

A minister at my church once said, "The best commentary is the Bible."

And, probably, the vast majority of Christians believe as you do also, that it is a figurative number. And it's been my experience that they usually see this description of Israel as figurative also. In other words, not really Israel. They would say it speaks to all the redeemed and represent the Church at this time.

You appear to see distinction between Israel and the Gentiles. And I would agree with that distinction, me being a Dispensationalist. See (1 Cor. 10:32) . Do you see these 144,000 as the Church? Same question could be asked concerning that vast number of Gentiles that are saved also. It becomes quite involved.

I agree with your church minister. It is in the Bible that our answers are found.

I would say this as a word of caution. It appears your 'doubt' of the exact number being 144,000 is that which affects your interpretation of it being literal or figurative. But we are dealing with God, and numbers appear important to Him. The sealing is a mriaculous event done by the angels of God. (Rev. 7:3) And since miraculous, why would the exact number be so hard to believe?

In other words, I never let something that is so miraculous mentioned in Scripture, and out of the ordinary as to our normal lives here, affect my interpretation of it, as to it being literal or figurative. Once one sets out on that path, there are many such things in Scripture which will be doubted.

For example: The talking snake in the garden. Jonah's whale. Baalam's talking donkey. Are these figurative or literal? Certainly miraculous.

Lees

 

[MoreCoffee]

@MoreCoffee

Here's another comment.
This one is from Albert Barnes

Revelation 14:1
And I looked - My attention was drawn to a new vision. The eye was turned away from the beast and his image to the heavenly world - the Mount Zion above.
And, lo, a Lamb - See the notes on Rev_5:6.
Stood on the mount Zion - That is, in heaven. See the notes on Heb_12:22. Zion, literally the southern hill in the city of Jerusalem, was a name also given to the whole city; and, as that was the seat of the divine worship on earth, it became an emblem of heaven - the dwelling-place of God. The scene of the vision here is laid in heaven, for it is a vision of the ultimate triumph of the redeemed, designed to sustain the church in view of the trials that had already come upon it, and of those which were yet to come.
And with him an hundred forty and four thousand - These are evidently the same persons that were seen in the vision recorded in Rev_7:3-8, and the representation is made for the same purpose - to sustain the church in trial, with the certainty of its future glory. See the notes on Rev_7:4.
Having his Father’s name written in their foreheads - Showing that they were his. See the notes on Rev_7:3; Rev_13:16. In Rev_7:3, it is merely said that they were “sealed in their foreheads”; the passage here shows how they were sealed. They had the name of God so stamped or marked on their foreheads as to show that they belonged to him. Compare the notes on Rev_7:3-8..

Revelation 14:2
And I heard a voice from heaven - Showing that the scene is laid in heaven, but that John in the vision was on the earth.
As the voice of many waters - As the sound of the ocean, or of a mighty cataract. That is, it was so loud that it could be heard from heaven to earth. No comparison could express this more sublimely than to say that it was like the roar of the ocean.
As the voice of a great thunder - As the loud sound of thunder.
And I heard the voice of harpers - In heaven: the song of redemption accompanied with strains of sweet instrumental music. For a description of the harp, see the notes on Isa_5:12.
Harping with their harps - Playing on their harps. This image gives new beauty to the description. Though the sound was loud and swelling, so loud that it could be heard on the earth, yet it was not mere shouting, or merely a tumultuous cry. “It was like the sweetness of symphonious harps.” The music of heaven, though elevated and joyous, is sweet and harmonious; and perhaps one of the best representations of heaven on earth, is the effect produced on the soul by strains of sweet and solemn music.

Revelation 14:3
And they sung as it were a new song - See the notes on Rev_5:9. It was proper to call this “new,” because it was on a new occasion, or pertained to a new object. The song here was in celebration of the complete redemption of the church, and was the song to be sung in view of its final triumph over all its foes. Compare notes on Rev_7:9-10.
Before the throne - The throne of God in heaven. See the notes on Rev_4:2.
And before the four beasts - See the notes on Rev_4:6-8.
And the elders - See the notes on Rev_4:4.
And no man could learn that song, ... - None could understand it but the redeemed. That is, none who had not been redeemed could enter fully into the feelings and sympathies of those who were. A great truth is taught here. To appreciate fully the songs of Zion; to understand the language of praise; to enter into the spirit of the truths which pertain to redemption; one must himself have been redeemed by the blood of Christ. He must have known what it is to be a sinner under the condemnation of a holy law; he must have known what it is to be in danger of eternal death; he must have experienced the joys of pardon, or he can never understand, in its true import, the language used by the redeemed. And this is only saying what we are familiar with in other things. He who is saved from peril; he who is rescued from long captivity; he who is pardoned at the foot of the scaffold; he who is recovered from dangerous illness; he who presses to his bosom a beloved child just rescued from a watery grave, will have an appreciation of the language of joy and triumph which he can never understand who has not been placed in such circumstances: but of all the joy ever experienced in the universe, so far as we can see, that must be the most sublime and transporting, which will be experienced when the redeemed shall stand on Mount Zion above, and shall realize that they are saved.

 

[Lees]

@MoreCoffee

So what's your point? Who are you agreeing with?

Lees

 

[Lees]

@MoreCoffee

Also, since when do you give quotes and not give the credits? The book and volume. The publisher. The most recent copy right date. The page number.

Or, since you probably got this off a web site, why don't you credit it? Just because you used Barnes Notes doesn't mean that is your source.

Did you get it off a Romanist web site?

Same with Haydock's notes. Where did you get these from? Where are the credits?

Lees

 

[MoreCoffee]

@MoreCoffee

Also, since when do you give quotes and not give the credits? The book and volume. The publisher. The most recent copy right date. The page number.

Or, since you probably got this off a web site, why don't you credit it? Just because you used Barnes Notes doesn't mean that is your source.

Did you get it off a Romanist web site?

Same with Haydock's notes. Where did you get these from? Where are the credits?

Lees

Both are available in e-sword as commentary modules so they have no pages. But sine they are both commenting on Revelation 14 finding the exact location for the quoted material is as easy as can be, just go to the place where Revelation 14 is commented upon.

 

[Origen]

Albert Barnes' commentaries are easily found online.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/55228/55228-h/55228-h.htm

 

[Lees]

@MoreCoffee

Where it is available is not what I asked. Where did 'you' take these quotes from? Obviously not from books because you refuse to credit them.

So, what is the source on the internet that you are quoting from?

And don't ignore my post #(16). What is your point. Who are you agreeing with?

Lees