Proof texting

[MoreCoffee]

Is it proof texting to quote a verse or a short passage that clearly teaches some point of theology?

Is it good sound biblical and truthful texting to quote a log passage and then declare "see that verse really means what I said it means" or "see, proof that the verse doesn't mean what you said"?

Here's an example

Alleged proof texting

Philippians 3:10-21 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the sharing of his sufferings by becoming like him in his death, [11] if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead. [12] Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. [13] Beloved, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but this one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, [14] I press on towards the goal for the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus. [15] Let those of us then who are mature be of the same mind; and if you think differently about anything, this too God will reveal to you. [16] Only let us hold fast to what we have attained. [17] Brothers and sisters, join in imitating me, and observe those who live according to the example you have in us. [18] For many live as enemies of the cross of Christ; I have often told you of them, and now I tell you even with tears. [19] Their end is destruction; their god is the belly; and their glory is in their shame; their minds are set on earthly things. [20] But our citizenship is in heaven, and it is from there that we are expecting a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. [21] He will transform the body of our humiliation so that it may be conformed to the body of his glory, by the power that also enables him to make all things subject to himself.
​

Alleged antidote that allegedly proves the above passage is not about salvation

Philippians 3:1-11 Finally, my brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is not troublesome to me, and for you it is a safeguard. [2] Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of those who mutilate the flesh! [3] For it is we who are the circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh-- [4] even though I, too, have reason for confidence in the flesh. If anyone else has reason to be confident in the flesh, I have more: [5] circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; [6] as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. [7] Yet whatever gains I had, these I have come to regard as loss because of Christ. [8] More than that, I regard everything as loss because of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and I regard them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ [9] and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but one that comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God based on faith. [10] I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the sharing of his sufferings by becoming like him in his death, [11] if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
​

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

I've never understood that. Why not just let Scripture say what it says? It's God's Word put to ink and paper and one can easily learn and understand the context of what is written. Just take the Lord's Word at His Word. Scripture interprets Scripture.

 

[Imalive]

I've never understood that. Why not just let Scripture say what it says? It's God's Word put to ink and paper and one can easily learn and understand the context of what is written. Just take the Lord's Word at His Word. Scripture interprets Scripture.

Yep it's a great way to not fall for false teachings.

Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I've never understood that. Why not just let Scripture say what it says? It's God's Word put to ink and paper and one can easily learn and understand the context of what is written. Just take the Lord's Word at His Word. Scripture interprets Scripture.

Yes, the verses say what they say and context doesn't make them mean either nothing or the opposite of what they say.

 

[Imalive]

Yes, the verses say what they say and context doesn't make them mean either nothing or the opposite of what they say.

Oh but some doctrin does. Every doctrin takes a bunch of texts and throws away others that say the exact opposite. The Bible has a lot of that. And even if it's true, it's never good to only emphasize one thing.
We're saved by grace! We're saved by grace! We're saved by grace! Look! Proof! You are saved by grace through faith, not by works, so noone should boast.
LOL James:
But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Doctrins always see one side of the same coin.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Oh but some doctrin does. Every doctrin takes a bunch of texts and throws away others that say the exact opposite. The Bible has a lot of that. And even if it's true, it's never good to only emphasize one thing.
We're saved by grace! We're saved by grace! We're saved by grace! Look! Proof! You are saved by grace through faith, not by works, so noone should boast.
LOL James:
But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Doctrins always see one side of the same coin.

That is why Catholic teaching is neither the same as John Calvin's nor the same as Martin Luther's on the matter of salvation. We are saved by grace as the scripture says and faith is instrumental in salvation as the scripture says yet works are what we are saved to do as the scripture says and those who continue to delight in doing wicked things cannot expect to be saved.

 

[Imalive]

That is why Catholic teaching is neither the same as John Calvin's nor the same as Martin Luther's on the matter of salvation. We are saved by grace as the scripture says and faith is instrumental in salvation as the scripture says yet works are what we are saved to do as the scripture says and those who continue to delight in doing wicked things cannot expect to be saved.

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/onecanh...mit-adultery-thousands-of-times-each-day/amp/

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sin boldly is very bad advice.

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

Sin boldly is very bad advice.

Here's the full context of that quote:


“If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin*boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2 Peter 3:13) are looking forward*to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each*day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.”

http://jpserrano.com/2011/11/16/sin-boldly-did-luther-really-mean-it-the-way-we-use-it-today/

 

[MoreCoffee]

Here's the full context of that quote:


“If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin*boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2 Peter 3:13) are looking forward*to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each*day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.”

http://jpserrano.com/2011/11/16/sin-boldly-did-luther-really-mean-it-the-way-we-use-it-today/

It's still bad advice

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

It's still bad advice

Okay. Jesus is still our Savior and no matter how great our sins, His grace is greater. I think that was the point Dr. Luther was trying to make.

 

[JRT]

When the entire context of scripture is understood one can draw much different conclusions from a great many passages. Scripture does not explain itself and frequently can be understood on several levels that are sometimes contradictory.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Okay. Jesus is still our Savior and no matter how great our sins, His grace is greater. I think that was the point Dr. Luther was trying to make.

Oh, that's not so good

It would be better if his desired point was to say that repent of all of your sins both the timid ones and the bold ones and after turning from sins do good because faith without works is dead and no one will see God without faith.

 

[MoreCoffee]

When the entire context of scripture is understood one can draw much different conclusions from a great many passages. Scripture does not explain itself and frequently can be understood on several levels that are sometimes contradictory.

Catholics teach that holy scripture takes some study and considerable effort to properly grasp. That is why the emphasis on individuals forming their own private interpretations that's current nowadays is so unhealthy. Private interpretations are also likely to be the primary cause for so many strange sects forming.

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

Oh, that's not so good

It would be better if his desired point was to say that repent of all of your sins both the timid ones and the bold ones and after turning from sins do good because faith without works is dead and no one will see God without faith.

Faith without works is dead and good works are an integral part of faith, as Dr. Luther has said more than once, himself. Here's his Treatise on Good Works: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/418/418-h/418-h.htm

 

[MoreCoffee]

Faith without works is dead and good works are an integral part of faith, as Dr. Luther has said more than once, himself. Here's his Treatise on Good Works: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/418/418-h/418-h.htm

Yes, Luther likely did say it but so many Protestants are allergic to good works that one wonders what they think being a Christian means. I cannot blame Martin Luther for what people do today so I don't. I only blame him for what he did and said. I suspect he may well be among the redeemed, possibly.

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

Yes, Luther likely did say it but so many Protestants are allergic to good works that one wonders what they think being a Christian means. I cannot blame Martin Luther for what people do today so I don't. I only blame him for what he did and said. I suspect he may well be among the redeemed, possibly.

Many Protestants ( most Protestants, today, actually) are more of the Calvinistic/ Free Church persuasion than the Lutheran. I might have once said that you'll find that Catholics and Lutherans share many things in common on points of doctrine, although we have many serious differences.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Many Protestants ( most Protestants, today, actually) are more of the Calvinistic/ Free Church persuasion than the Lutheran. I might have once said that you'll find that Catholics and Lutherans share many things in common on points of doctrine, although we have many serious differences.

That we do. Big differences yet large similarities. Catholics have more similarities than differences with nearly every branch of protestantism yet the differences take pride of place in most discussions. A Presbyterian chap once explained it to me as a need to emphasise "the distinctive beliefs of each denomination - without them how would we justify the existence of our denomination". On the whole Catholic Christians know little of Protestant denominational Distinctives.

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

That we do. Big differences yet large similarities. Catholics have more similarities than differences with nearly every branch of protestantism yet the differences take pride of place in most discussions. A Presbyterian chap once explained it to me as a need to emphasise "the distinctive beliefs of each denomination - without them how would we justify the existence of our denomination". On the whole Catholic Christians know little of Protestant denominational Distinctives.

You might find these links useful..
http://www.religionfacts.com/protestantism
http://www.religionfacts.com/protestantism/branches
http://www.gordonconwell.edu/mentored-ministry/documents/DENOMINATIONALCHART2011-2012.pdf
https://broom02.revolvy.com/topic/Protestantism in Australia&item_type=topic

 

[Imalive]

Catholics teach that holy scripture takes some study and considerable effort to properly grasp. That is why the emphasis on individuals forming their own private interpretations that's current nowadays is so unhealthy. Private interpretations are also likely to be the primary cause for so many strange sects forming.

God gave teachers etc. to the Body, but the Holy Spirit guides you into all truth and you have no need that anyone teaches you. So if anything a preacher says is false, the Holy Spirit will show you by using the Word. The Bereans even checked if what Paul preached was in the Scriptures.
Never follow any leader or doctrin blindly. That's how false teaching can come in. I read a warning prophecy about that from the fifties. Nowadays w all these false teachers you have to fix your eyes on Jesus to see who is who in the zoo. He said: first they will teach good Biblical stuff. Then the ppl will trust them and then the heresies come in, but ppl are like: isn't this so and so? He's good, so this must be good too and they swallow false teaching. You see it w Jews too. If they listen to the intelligent rabbi's who understand the Scriptures and you dumb ordinary folk don't, they reject Jesus. But if they read the Scriptures for themselves they find Jesus. There's a lot of testimonies of Jews who got saved like that. They thought for themselves.

But indeed there's also ppl who are mad at church leaders, so they leave church and reject any authority and go make their own gospel and dont go to church anymore and no leader protects em against wolves.