Predestination in the OT?

[Andrew]

This is also along the lines of the 'free will' debate so I'll try to ask the question as simply as possible.

Jehova in the OT had given the Israelites plenty of opportunity after opportunity and yet they continued to sin and backslide, even his prophets fell short in their missions, so if all of this was already predestined by God, why did he even bother with them? They had a choice or did they not have a choice?
IMO, when God says "I have ordained thee from the foundations" I believe he is speaking of his followers, his chosen, that he will HAVE his followers (or following) but in the broadest general sense, not to each individuals specific actions as prewired motions, we aren't robots beep boop beep.
OT predestination of Israelites (personal actions and accountability/free will) go...

 

[psalms 91]

God asked them choose you this day whom you will serve good or evil, blessing or cursing. Seems God gave them the choice

 

[Lamb]

God asked them choose you this day whom you will serve good or evil, blessing or cursing. Seems God gave them the choice

Joshua states this, not God...and he's speaking to the ones God set aside to be His children. Joshua is reminding them in Joshua 23 of what the Lord has done for them and in Joshua 24 gives warnings about turning away from God. This is not the same as choosing from unbeliever to believer. The verse context does not come close to decision theology.


Joshua 24:14-15 “Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

 

[psalms 91]

perhaps not but it does show that God gives choices in our lives

 

[Josiah]

God asked them choose you this day whom you will serve good or evil, blessing or cursing. Seems God gave them the choice

... God said to people ALREADY His children, His people, in His covenant

 

[psalms 91]

... God said to people ALREADY His children, His people, in His covenant

OK Lets take it back to Moses addressing the people with the ten commandments, they also had a chopice then and that was before they accepted being Gods people

 

[Josiah]

OK Lets take it back to Moses addressing the people with the ten commandments, they also had a chopice then and that was before they accepted being Gods people

... they were already God's people.

And yes, we have a choice as to how we act (although that doesn't mean ergo we are capable of perfection); yes, I can choose whether to order my burger with cheese or not. But the issue of "predestination" (or "election" as Lutherans and Anglicans prefer to speak of it) has to do with narrow justiification and NOTHING ELSE, not to be confused with the Greek, pagan concept of "fate."

 

[psalms 91]

Back to narrow justification huh, I will leave this thread to you theologans who understand all the differences in these esoteric terms. It is amazing how complicated one can make the gospel, if this is what is taught no wonder so many avoid church like the plaugue

 

[MennoSota]

Verses that indicate God's predestination in the OT. Especially note that Cyrus is called by name over a hundred years before he is born.
Isaiah 14:24-26
[24]The lord of Heaven’s Armies has sworn this oath: “It will all happen as I have planned. *** It will be as I have decided.
[25]I will break the Assyrians when they are in Israel; *** I will trample them on my mountains. My people will no longer be their slaves *** nor bow down under their heavy loads.
[26]I have a plan for the whole earth, *** a hand of judgment upon all the nations.
Isaiah 22
[11]Between the city walls, you build a reservoir *** for water from the old pool. But you never ask for help from the One who did all this. *** You never considered the One who planned this long ago.
Isaiah 37
[26]“But have you not heard? *** I decided this long ago. Long ago I planned it, *** and now I am making it happen. I planned for you to crush fortified cities *** into heaps of rubble.
Isaiah 44:7-8
[7]Who is like me? *** Let him step forward and prove to you his power. Let him do as I have done since ancient times *** when I established a people and explained its future.
[8]Do not tremble; do not be afraid. *** Did I not proclaim my purposes for you long ago? You are my witnesses—is there any other God? *** No! There is no other Rock—not one!”
Isaiah 44:7-8,26-28
[7]Who is like me? *** Let him step forward and prove to you his power. Let him do as I have done since ancient times *** when I established a people and explained its future.
[8]Do not tremble; do not be afraid. *** Did I not proclaim my purposes for you long ago? You are my witnesses—is there any other God? *** No! There is no other Rock—not one!”
[26]But I carry out the predictions of my prophets! *** By them I say to Jerusalem, ‘People will live here again,’ and to the towns of Judah, ‘You will be rebuilt; *** I will restore all your ruins!’
[27]When I speak to the rivers and say, ‘Dry up!’ *** they will be dry.
[28]When I say of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd,’ *** he will certainly do as I say. He will command, ‘Rebuild Jerusalem’; *** he will say, ‘Restore the Temple.’”
Isaiah 45:1-6
[1]This is what the lord says to Cyrus, his anointed one, *** whose right hand he will empower. Before him, mighty kings will be paralyzed with fear. *** Their fortress gates will be opened, *** never to shut again.
[2]This is what the lord says: “I will go before you, Cyrus, *** and level the mountains. I will smash down gates of bronze *** and cut through bars of iron.
[3]And I will give you treasures hidden in the darkness— *** secret riches. I will do this so you may know that I am the lord, *** the God of Israel, the one who calls you by name.
[4]“And why have I called you for this work? *** Why did I call you by name when you did not know me? It is for the sake of Jacob my servant, *** Israel my chosen one.
[5]I am the lord; *** there is no other God. I have equipped you for battle, *** though you don’t even know me,
[6]so all the world from east to west *** will know there is no other God. I am the lord, and there is no other. ***
Isaiah 46:8-10
[8]“Do not forget this! Keep it in mind! *** Remember this, you guilty ones.
[9]Remember the things I have done in the past. *** For I alone am God! *** I am God, and there is none like me.
[10]Only I can tell you the future *** before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, *** for I do whatever I wish.
Amos 3:7-8
[7]Indeed, the Sovereign lord never does anything *** until he reveals his plans to his servants the prophets.
[8]The lion has roared— *** so who isn’t frightened? The Sovereign lord has spoken— *** so who can refuse to proclaim his message?

 

[Josiah]

Back to narrow justification huh, I will leave this thread to you theologans who understand all the differences in these esoteric terms. It is amazing how complicated one can make the gospel, if this is what is taught no wonder so many avoid church like the plaugue

[MENTION=43]psalms 91[/MENTION]


Try reading this, my friend - please tell me if it helps at all.


Friend.... words can be used variously, even in the Bible (context showing WHICH meaning is meant). These include words like: salvation, justification, sanctification, etc. So, in order to be clear WHICH meaning we are talking about, we have to define that. "Narrow Justification" is just one of the ways in theology we speak of the changed relationship with God, particularly, the establishment of it, the COMING of the divine gifts of life, faith and the Holy Spirit... the change from NOT having those (and thus being "dead in our tresspasses" and "an enemy of God") to being a Christian, a child of God. Now, the word CAN have a much broader meaning, to refer to EVERYTHING in our relationship with God, the whole of soteriology, what is true AFTER this change in relationship to God happens.

Similarly, I can speak of my COMING to physical life (I'd say 9 months prior to my birthday), the GIFT of life.... and I can talk of the whole of life, which is a progressive thing continuing now and not ending until my death (I'd say not ever since it continues even after death). Can you see how they are two different issues, although both can be called "life?"

Why does this matters? Well, only if you want to hold that Jesus is the Savior and thus is the one who saves. In other religions, the distinction is irrelevant since all our relationship to God is a matter of self saving self in a low, progressive process (where God may HELP but never actually save) - perhaps completed only in some future reincarnation or time after death. Protestants claim that JESUS is THE Savior (not just helper or offerer or possibility-maker) and thus Jesus is the one who saves (not self). And we (like Scripture) speak of this narrow justification (and salvation also in this narrow sense) as done (since Jesus did it). But is that all there is? No. Now as His child, now as one with the gift of life, now as one with faith in Christ, now as one with the power and direction of the Holy Spirit - we are to become more Christ-like, more loving, more moral. But these aren't the same thing, as if a dead, atheistic, enemy of God saves himself by growing more loving and moral and Christ-like VOID of faith and life and the Holy Spirit until he ultimately saves himself (making Jesus irrelevant). It only matters if you hold that we are justified by Jesus' works instead of by our own.


Isn't hard.




.

 

[psalms 91]

I agree that Jesus saves I agree that we are justified because of Jesus. I also believe in progressive sanctification and that we make a decision for Christ, I have trouble with this preselection thing as that implies that we are mere robots and nothing that we decide or do will change anything and that it is only if we are selected by God we are saved when it says that Jesus died for all. The distinction I make is that He died for all but all will not choose Him and His gift. I have seen narrow justification used in many threads and it seems to shut down those who like myself do not understand it in the sense of its parameters or else choose not to make a fine distinction.

 

[Andrew]

Verses that indicate God's predestination in the OT. Especially note that Cyrus is called by name over a hundred years before he is born.
Isaiah 14:24-26
[24]The lord of Heaven’s Armies has sworn this oath: “It will all happen as I have planned. *** It will be as I have decided.
[25]I will break the Assyrians when they are in Israel; *** I will trample them on my mountains. My people will no longer be their slaves *** nor bow down under their heavy loads.
[26]I have a plan for the whole earth, *** a hand of judgment upon all the nations.
Isaiah 22
[11]Between the city walls, you build a reservoir *** for water from the old pool. But you never ask for help from the One who did all this. *** You never considered the One who planned this long ago.
Isaiah 37
[26]“But have you not heard? *** I decided this long ago. Long ago I planned it, *** and now I am making it happen. I planned for you to crush fortified cities *** into heaps of rubble.
Isaiah 44:7-8
[7]Who is like me? *** Let him step forward and prove to you his power. Let him do as I have done since ancient times *** when I established a people and explained its future.
[8]Do not tremble; do not be afraid. *** Did I not proclaim my purposes for you long ago? You are my witnesses—is there any other God? *** No! There is no other Rock—not one!”
Isaiah 44:7-8,26-28
[7]Who is like me? *** Let him step forward and prove to you his power. Let him do as I have done since ancient times *** when I established a people and explained its future.
[8]Do not tremble; do not be afraid. *** Did I not proclaim my purposes for you long ago? You are my witnesses—is there any other God? *** No! There is no other Rock—not one!”
[26]But I carry out the predictions of my prophets! *** By them I say to Jerusalem, ‘People will live here again,’ and to the towns of Judah, ‘You will be rebuilt; *** I will restore all your ruins!’
[27]When I speak to the rivers and say, ‘Dry up!’ *** they will be dry.
[28]When I say of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd,’ *** he will certainly do as I say. He will command, ‘Rebuild Jerusalem’; *** he will say, ‘Restore the Temple.’”
Isaiah 45:1-6
[1]This is what the lord says to Cyrus, his anointed one, *** whose right hand he will empower. Before him, mighty kings will be paralyzed with fear. *** Their fortress gates will be opened, *** never to shut again.
[2]This is what the lord says: “I will go before you, Cyrus, *** and level the mountains. I will smash down gates of bronze *** and cut through bars of iron.
[3]And I will give you treasures hidden in the darkness— *** secret riches. I will do this so you may know that I am the lord, *** the God of Israel, the one who calls you by name.
[4]“And why have I called you for this work? *** Why did I call you by name when you did not know me? It is for the sake of Jacob my servant, *** Israel my chosen one.
[5]I am the lord; *** there is no other God. I have equipped you for battle, *** though you don’t even know me,
[6]so all the world from east to west *** will know there is no other God. I am the lord, and there is no other. ***
Isaiah 46:8-10
[8]“Do not forget this! Keep it in mind! *** Remember this, you guilty ones.
[9]Remember the things I have done in the past. *** For I alone am God! *** I am God, and there is none like me.
[10]Only I can tell you the future *** before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, *** for I do whatever I wish.
Amos 3:7-8
[7]Indeed, the Sovereign lord never does anything *** until he reveals his plans to his servants the prophets.
[8]The lion has roared— *** so who isn’t frightened? The Sovereign lord has spoken— *** so who can refuse to proclaim his message?

God is broadly speaking that he alone perpetuates the outcome of nations especially in defense of his people, I certainly have no free will over nations but I do over my own actions.

 

[MennoSota]

God is broadly speaking that he alone perpetuates the outcome of nations especially in defense of his people, I certainly have no free will over nations but I do over my own actions.

But...you don't. You are given the right to make choices by the Sovereign God, but He can stop your choice immediately so that you cannot do what you want to do.
Second, you can never choose to accept a passive gift of salvation for two reasons.
First, God doesn't place his gift on a street corner and hope someone picks it up. God gives his gift to selected people who he knew of before the foundation of the world.
Second, you are by nature do not seek God. You run from Him not toward Him, just as Adam and Eve ran and hid from God. Adam and Eve would have never came out of hiding had God not called their names. You would distrust any gift left on a corner for fear it would kill you.
Conclusion: Your choices are under the authority of the Sovereign God. You are not a free man.

 

[Andrew]

But...you don't. You are given the right to make choices by the Sovereign God, but He can stop your choice immediately so that you cannot do what you want to do.
Second, you can never choose to accept a passive gift of salvation for two reasons.
First, God doesn't place his gift on a street corner and hope someone picks it up. God gives his gift to selected people who he knew of before the foundation of the world.
Second, you are by nature do not seek God. You run from Him not toward Him, just as Adam and Eve ran and hid from God. Adam and Eve would have never came out of hiding had God not called their names. You would distrust any gift left on a corner for fear it would kill you.
Conclusion: Your choices are under the authority of the Sovereign God. You are not a free man.

Wait does that mean that if I give my mind body and strength to the Lord that God could change his mind and send me to hell?
Thats what I got from your first line.
Yes we all deserve what is fair, that is, we all deserve to perish, but God didn't expect man to be perfect little robots beep boop beep, so he willed that the world be saved for those who believe in Christ, why so many demands or commandments at all? Why not just pre wire his creation into doing as he wanted? Adam and Eve had a choice, they disobeyed God, are your trying to convince me that God made that choice for them?

 

[MennoSota]

Wait does that mean that if I give my mind body and strength to the Lord that God could change his mind and send me to hell?
Thats what I got from your first line.
Yes we all deserve what is fair, that is, we all deserve to perish, but God didn't expect man to be perfect little robots beep boop beep, so he willed that the world be saved for those who believe in Christ, why so many demands or commandments at all? Why not just pre wire his creation into doing as he wanted? Adam and Eve had a choice, they disobeyed God, are your trying to convince me that God made that choice for them?

What has God promised you? Does God break His promises?
God won't change His mind because He has promised He will never leave you nor forsake you.
But to answer your question: God can do what He wills as the Sovereign King. That is what it means to be Sovereign. This should cause fear. You and I are not walking up to a good ole' buddy when we meet with God. We are before the throne of the one who holds our life and death in his hands and can determine the outcome at one command.
Perhaps now you can grasp what Jonathan Edwards meant when he penned "Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God." Perhaps you can understand why his listeners cowerd on the floor as he read, begging God to be merciful.

 

[Josiah]

I agree that Jesus saves I agree that we are justified because of Jesus.

AMEN! Makes you a Protestant. And it means that everything related to justification is done by Jesus. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide (the Protestant view of Justification) is done by Jesus.

I also believe in progressive sanctification

Yup, everyone has always agreed on that (although one Eastern Orthodox poster here at CH seems to have a problem with this)l

and that we make a decision for Christ

If this has to do with narrow justification, then Jesus isn't the Savior, is He?

I have trouble with this preselection thing as that implies that we are mere robots

No, it teaches that Jesus is the Savior and thus Jesus does the saving. If justification is ACTUALLY the result of the Dead, atheist, enemy of God "choosing" salvation then who is the Savior? Obviously, the dead, atheistic, enemy of God - by the action of his choosing... we are saved not by Jesus' incarnation and life, not by his righteousness, not by His death, not by His resurrection, not by ANYTHING related to Jesus - but because a Dead, atheistic, enemy of God dead in his trespasses makes a good choice - void of God, void of the Holy Spirit, void of life.

nothing that we decide or do will change anything

Valid point. If Jesus is the Savior then we can't be. But then again, if self is the savior then Jesus can't be. Which do you believe?

I have seen narrow justification used in many threads and it seems to shut down those who like myself do not understand it in the sense of its parameters or else choose not to make a fine distinction.

It kind of does.... either self is the cause for self - DEAD, ATHEISTIC, ENEMY of God saving self by the power of the awesome brain of self - no God needed, no Savior needed, no Cross needed, no Incarnation needed, no Resurrection needed, no Holy Spirit needed - just a dead atheistic enemy of God with a good brain that makes a good decision. Protestants teach this: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Not, Sola

 

[Josiah]

I agree that Jesus saves I agree that we are justified because of Jesus.

AMEN! Makes you a Protestant. And it means that everything related to justification is done by Jesus. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide (the Protestant view of Justification) is done by Jesus.

I also believe in progressive sanctification

Yup, everyone has always agreed on that (although one Eastern Orthodox poster here at CH seems to have a problem with this)l

and that we make a decision for Christ

If this has to do with narrow justification, then Jesus isn't the Savior, is He?

I have trouble with this preselection thing as that implies that we are mere robots

No, it teaches that Jesus is the Savior and thus Jesus does the saving. If justification is ACTUALLY the result of the Dead, atheist, enemy of God "choosing" salvation then who is the Savior? Obviously, the dead, atheistic, enemy of God - by the action of his choosing... we are saved not by Jesus' incarnation and life, not by his righteousness, not by His death, not by His resurrection, not by ANYTHING related to Jesus - but because a Dead, atheistic, enemy of God dead in his trespasses makes a good choice - void of God, void of the Holy Spirit, void of life.

nothing that we decide or do will change anything

Valid point. If Jesus is the Savior then we can't be. But then again, if self is the savior then Jesus can't be. Which do you believe?

I have seen narrow justification used in many threads and it seems to shut down those who like myself do not understand it in the sense of its parameters or else choose not to make a fine distinction.

It kind of does.... either self is the cause for self - DEAD, ATHEISTIC, ENEMY of God saving self by the power of the awesome brain of self - no God needed, no Savior needed, no Cross needed, no Incarnation needed, no Resurrection needed, no Holy Spirit needed - just a dead atheistic enemy of God with a good brain that makes a good decision. Protestants teach this: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Not, Sola Arbitrium.

 

[Pedrito]

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psalms 91 in Post #2:

God asked them choose you this day whom you will serve good or evil, blessing or cursing. Seems God gave them the choice

Lämmchen in Post #3:

Joshua states this, not God...and he's speaking to the ones God set aside to be His children. Joshua is reminding them in Joshua 23 of what the Lord has done for them and in Joshua 24 gives warnings about turning away from God. This is not the same as choosing from unbeliever to believer. The verse context does not come close to decision theology.

“Decision Theology”? As opposed to “Monergism”? It’s just as well we have theologians around to help us understand what these terms mean, by writing books about them. Oh… wait a minute… it was theologians that made those terms up in the first place. What about before the theologians got involved?

Josiah in Post #5:

... God said to people ALREADY His children, His people, in His covenant

Possibly without realising it, Josiah has confirmed that people who are already in a covenant relationship with God can elect (choose) to turn away, serve evil, and suffer the consequences.

With respect to Israel, we can refer to Leviticus 26:3-13 and Deuteronomy 28:1-14 for instance.

With respect to “Christians” what light do the following verses throw on the subject: 1 Corinthians 10:12; Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:20-22; 1 John 5:16,17; Matthew 12:31,32; Hebrews 3:6-12; Hebrews 3:13-14; Matthew 24:13; Hebrews 12:25; Luke 9:62.

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Following the example of Israel (and nowhere yet in this thread has it been stated that that example is inappropriate), we could look at Exodus 19:1-8. The people were given a choice of obedience to God or otherwise.

In the New Testament we find three references to obeying the Gospel – Romans 10:16; 2 Thessalonians 1:8; 1 Peter 4:17. The Greek word translated “obey” is hupakouo. It means to take notice of, obey, submit to. All its meanings carry the sense of personal choice. To obey or not to obey. It applies to all who have heard the Gospel message.

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And with respect to the six passages tendered by MennoSote in Post #9, aren’t they all in fact talking about God’s overall purposes? Isn’t that stated directly in two of them?

I would suggest that not one of them addresses personal salvation. Not even the ones in which Cyrus is mentioned.

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Predestination in the Old Testament? With respect to God’s declared overall purposes, indeed. With respect to the spiritual salvation of individuals, no. (At least, not in the verses presented.)

Any implication that God's predeclared purposes in the historical context, imply support for the idea of choiceless preselection for personal salvation in our day, can be treated with suspicion.

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