Original Sin

[Jazzy]

Are babies born with sin? (Please explain your answer)

 

[Stravinsk]

Original or inherited sin is a doctrine (primarily of Paul, although some people infer it from a few OT texts) that I don't accept. In my estimation it places the blame on God for sin, rather than our own choices.

 

[Lamb]

Sin is an inherited alienation from God passed down from Adam and Eve.
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Psalm 51:5

 

[Josiah]

Are babies born with sin? (Please explain your answer)

@Jazzy


Original Sin


Psalm 51:5 "I was sinful at birth"

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12 "Sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people for all have sin."

Ephesians 4:22, "Put off the old man which corrupts."

Ephesians 2:3, "We all were by our very nature objects of God's wrath."

Ephesians 2:1 "You were dead in your sins."

Romans 8:7 "The sinful mind is hostile to God, it does not submit to God Law because it cannot do so."

"Original sin" is kind of like a spiritual disease. It's universal. Let's say I have the disease of a cold. And thus, I likely (at least at times) have symptoms of that - coughing, sneezing, runny nose, sore throat. Now, does the coughing result in me having a cold? No, it's the cold that (may) result in the cough. "Original sin" (usually spoken of in Scripture by the singular "sin") is the disease, the spiritual defeat that humanity has since the Fall. If I shoot my neighbor, the "problem" is not limited to the microsecond when I pulled the trigger.... there is a HISTORY here, chain of things, that goes all the way back to my heart, my very nature, and how it sought to hurt and hate. "Original sin" is that heart problem, that spiritual disease.


Actualized Sin

Matthew 7:17 "A bad tree bears bad fruit" (note, it's not the other way around.... something BAD exists, and ERGO bad fruit exists)

Galatians 5:19 "The acts of our SINFUL NATURE are......" (Ditto)

Matthew 15:19 "Out of the sinful heart come ....."


"Actual Sin" is the symptoms of the disease. These are usually (but not always) referred to in Scripture in the plural, "sins." If I have that cold, I may have symptoms of it. The symptoms may vary... they may be severe or slight.... I may be able to control some and perhaps not others.... I may have times when there are no symptoms at all... but I still have the disease, the sickness. The "evil inclination of the heart" (as Scripture puts it) - the disease ("Original Sin") may lead me to shoot my neighbor (the actualized sin) - the symptom.

By the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, Christians have a rich advantage in controlling the symptoms, but Paul insists that the "old Adam" still exists in us.

I hope that helps.


Blessings!


- Josiah



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[Stravinsk]

Sin is an inherited alienation from God passed down from Adam and Eve.
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Psalm 51:5

I used to use this verse to support the same belief, but it was (surprisingly) a Lutheran Pastor that opened up the broader context to me.

David is referring to his sinful actions (sending Bathsheba's husband to his death, in order to take his wife), and then fostering a child with Bathsheba. These two sinful actions produced a pregnancy. David is punished for his sin and the child dies.

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" - is what the human produced by such a union might think upon learning the truth.

 

[Lamb]

I used to use this verse to support the same belief, but it was (surprisingly) a Lutheran Pastor that opened up the broader context to me.

David is referring to his sinful actions (sending Bathsheba's husband to his death, in order to take his wife), and then fostering a child with Bathsheba. These two sinful actions produced a pregnancy. David is punished for his sin and the child dies.

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" - is what the human produced by such a union might think upon learning the truth.

That Lutheran pastor didn't really teach you properly then because Lutherans point to that verse to show how we're sinful since birth...meaning inherited sin.

 

[Stravinsk]

That Lutheran pastor didn't really teach you properly then because Lutherans point to that verse to show how we're sinful since birth...meaning inherited sin.

I like that he was honest about the context instead of using it as a "proof text" taken out of context to support a belief. He was Lutheran, so he likely believed in "original sin" for other reasons. So many Christian pastors use texts out of context and it was refreshing to me to see one correcting me on my own misconception of said text.

 

[Lees]

I used to use this verse to support the same belief, but it was (surprisingly) a Lutheran Pastor that opened up the broader context to me.

David is referring to his sinful actions (sending Bathsheba's husband to his death, in order to take his wife), and then fostering a child with Bathsheba. These two sinful actions produced a pregnancy. David is punished for his sin and the child dies.

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" - is what the human produced by such a union might think upon learning the truth.

Sure you did.

No. David in (Ps. 51:1-5) is addressing himself as 'shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.'. He is not addressing the birth of Bathsheba's child. He is addressing his sin and he being sinful at birth.

I like that he was honest about the context instead of using it as a "proof text" taken out of context to support a belief. He was Lutheran, so he likely believed in "original sin" for other reasons. So many Christian pastors use texts out of context and it was refreshing to me to see one correcting me on my own misconception of said text.

He wasn't honest about the context. But he provided an interpretation that you a non-believer jumped at like a chicken on a cricket. His unbelief resonated with your unbelief.

He didn't correct you. He reinforced you.

My opinion.

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

Sure you did.

No. David in (Ps. 51:1-5) is addressing himself as 'shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.'. He is not addressing the birth of Bathsheba's child. He is addressing his sin and he being sinful at birth.

All one has to do is look at the beginning of the Psalm 51, where the context is given, and then read about the story of David and Bathsheba if one doesn't already know it.

Anyway, the OP asked for reasons why one does/does not believe in Original Sin. Here's one more:

Genesis 6:9 Noah, righteous and blameless. Guess Original Sin passed him by. Now watch as Lees "explains" this to say it doesn't mean what it says.

 

[Lees]

All one has to do is look at the beginning of the Psalm 51, where the context is given, and then read about the story of David and Bathsheba if one doesn't already know it.

Anyway, the OP asked for reasons why one does/does not believe in Original Sin. Here's one more:

Genesis 6:9 Noah, righteous and blameless. Guess Original Sin passed him by. Now watch as Lees "explains" this to say it doesn't mean what it says.

Yes, the context at the beginning of (Psalm 51) is Davids sin. (51:1) "blot out my transgressions" (51:2) "cleanse me from my sin" (51:3) "For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me." (51:4) "Against thee, thee only, have I sinned" (51:5) "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

The context is clear. David is addressing his sin. He states he was a sinner from birth. Born a sinner.

(Gen. 6:9) doesn't say anything about Noah not being a sinner. In fact, in (6:8), it is clear that Noah is a sinner. "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD." Who needs grace? Sinners. The righteousness that describes Noah is the imputed righteousness that God sees him in. (Gen. 7:1) "...for thee have I seen righteous before me" Just like God would with Abraham. (Gen. 15:6) "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." An imputed righteousness.

No, watch Lees correct your error and show it means what it says.

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

Yes, the context at the beginning of (Psalm 51) is Davids sin. (51:1) "blot out my transgressions" (51:2) "cleanse me from my sin" (51:3) "For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me." (51:4) "Against thee, thee only, have I sinned" (51:5) "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

The context is clear. David is addressing his sin. He states he was a sinner from birth. Born a sinner.

"My sin is ever before me" - Bathsheba's pregnancy that was the result of David having her husband killed so he could sleep with her.

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." - I think this is very clear that David is thinking here of the child, empathizing with how the child would see itself as it came to understand the circumstances of it's conception.

(Gen. 6:9) doesn't say anything about Noah not being a sinner. In fact, in (6:8), it is clear that Noah is a sinner. "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD." Who needs grace? Sinners. The righteousness that describes Noah is the imputed righteousness that God sees him in. (Gen. 7:1) "...for thee have I seen righteous before me" Just like God would with Abraham. (Gen. 15:6) "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." An imputed righteousness.

No, watch Lees correct your error and show it means what it says.

Lees

The word translated "grace" is actually Strong's 2580 - which can mean "grace", "favor", even "pleasant" , it doesn't imply that sin had to be committed first or there was forgiveness. Noah's "grace" was God's favor towards him and his family to survive the coming flood.

Genesis 6:9 clearly and unambiguously states that Noah was Righteous and Blameless in all his generations.

You see, you haven't "corrected" anything, just denied the text like I predicted you would.

 

[Lees]

"My sin is ever before me" - Bathsheba's pregnancy that was the result of David having her husband killed so he could sleep with her.

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." - I think this is very clear that David is thinking here of the child, empathizing with how the child would see itself as it came to understand the circumstances of it's conception.


The word translated "grace" is actually Strong's 2580 - which can mean "grace", "favor", even "pleasant" , it doesn't imply that sin had to be committed first or there was forgiveness. Noah's "grace" was God's favor towards him and his family to survive the coming flood.

Genesis 6:9 clearly and unambiguously states that Noah was Righteous and Blameless in all his generations.

You see, you haven't "corrected" anything, just denied the text like I predicted you would.

No. Davids sin with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband is his sin. And it is his sin that he is addressing. (Ps. 51:5) "I was shapen in iniquity" David was shapen in iniquity. "in sin did my mother conceive me" In sin did Davids mother conceive him. From birth David declares he was a sinner.

Again, Noah being a just and perfect man in his generations doesn't mean he wasn't a sinner. Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Gen. 6:8) Noah was seen as righteous by God. (7:1) It doesn't say Noah was without sin. It says God saw him as righteous. Just as I showed you with Abraham. Just like it is with any believer. We are declared righteous. Imputed righteousness.

Well, you are quite a prophet, knowing you needed correcting. But 'correcting' doesn't mean your mind is changed.

Lees

 

[Lamb]

I like that he was honest about the context instead of using it as a "proof text" taken out of context to support a belief. He was Lutheran, so he likely believed in "original sin" for other reasons. So many Christian pastors use texts out of context and it was refreshing to me to see one correcting me on my own misconception of said text.

I'm not saying that the pastor was wrong in giving the historical lesson of the psalm, but either he was wrong in not pointing out to you the concept of original sin in his explanation to you, or you missed it when he did speak of it.

 

[Josiah]

The doctrine of original sin does not come exclusively from Psalm 51.


See post 4


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[Stravinsk]

I'm not saying that the pastor was wrong in giving the historical lesson of the psalm, but either he was wrong in not pointing out to you the concept of original sin in his explanation to you, or you missed it when he did speak of it.

That's a Lutheran perspective, and he may have held it, or likely did, being a Lutheran. Maybe I am mistaken, but it's a likely perspective across most of Christianity.

That doesn't make it true.

The concept of Original Sin puts a Holy and Righteous God as responsible for evil. If sin is inherited, and an inclination, (by the Will of God), then obviously it's God's doing. You need a Savior because, through no fault of your own, God willed it.

God willed evil so you can be saved. Hmm.

Honestly, this sounds more like a human argument than a Divine one. "I'm not at fault!!" "It was Eve!" "It was the Devil!"...not me! If it's me....it was because of something that God planted in me! I cannot be held to account in any case, because something other than me compelled me! I have no free will.

What the Christian is proclaiming here is that God made them do it.

 

[Lees]

That's a Lutheran perspective, and he may have held it, or likely did, being a Lutheran. Maybe I am mistaken, but it's a likely perspective across most of Christianity.

That doesn't make it true.

The concept of Original Sin puts a Holy and Righteous God as responsible for evil. If sin is inherited, and an inclination, (by the Will of God), then obviously it's God's doing. You need a Savior because, through no fault of your own, God willed it.

God willed evil so you can be saved. Hmm.

Honestly, this sounds more like a human argument than a Divine one. "I'm not at fault!!" "It was Eve!" "It was the Devil!"...not me! If it's me....it was because of something that God planted in me! I cannot be held to account in any case, because something other than me compelled me! I have no free will.

What the Christian is proclaiming here is that God made them do it.

No. Evil already existed. Sin is inherited...original sin...from Adam.

Yes, that is by the will of God. Yes, It is God's doing. Yes, because God made it such that we are guilty in one, so we can be declared righteous in One, Jesus Christ.

No, it wasn't evil that God willed. It was good.

Oh, but man is held to account for the wrong or evil that he does. You don't have 'free will', but you have a will. Funny how you and other non-believers want to find fault with God for Adam's race being guilty due to his one act. Yet you dispise the salvation that God provided for all, in Jesus one act.

No, God didn't make them do it, sin. But He knew they would do it with a fallen nature from Adam. But such is the price for being able to redeem them in Christ.

You must realize, which you won't, that Adam and Eve in the Garden is not what God wanted. They may have been without sin, but they were not born of Him. Adam was a son in that he was a direct creation from God, just like angels were sons as they were direct creations from God. (Job 38:7) But God wanted born sons, of His seed. And the fall of the human race, and the redemption provided in Jesus Christ, and the new birth being implemented, provide real sons of God born of Him.

Lees