on abortion

ValleyGal

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Because IDay's thread keeps getting derailed with discussion on abortion, I am starting this thread for those who are not interested in discussing the language used around choice, abortion, murder, etc. However, it's a little different. Have at it here - I likely won't participate, but here is a thought-provoking statement. I got this from a FB post. It was written by Methodist Pastor David Barnhart, tag david-barnhart.

"The unborn" are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don't resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don't ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don't need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don't bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any owrk at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them because they cease to be unborn. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus, but actually dislike people who breathe. Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn."

Yep, the unborn are easy to love and advocate for. And the mothers of the dead unborn are easy to condemn, just as those who are divorced, who are "living in sin" (living together), who smoke marijuana, who don't work for a living and the state has to support, those who have addictions, those who (insert sin or other undesirable quality).

I wonder what would happen if we tried to love on the mother rather than condemn her? Let's look at some of those women who make this difficult decision to abort - and don't think it comes easy for them! This decision for most of them is agonizing.
- a young woman in middle school whose body is not prepared to handle pregnancy and birth, and will cause significant damage to her body if she goes through with pregnancy and birth
- a young girl in high school who is sexually active, but who has religiously conservative parents who will throw her out on the street if they found out she is pregnant
- a woman who has a disability and lives in poverty and is unable to afford today's rents
- a woman who has 4 children and got pregnant while on birth control, whose husband just left her for another woman
- a woman who is homeless
- a woman who has addictions and knows she cannot bring a child into such circumstances
- a woman who is mentally unstable and wants to protect her child from being born into the same predisposition
- a woman who must prostitute for a living because wages are too low to support her, let alone a baby
- and so many other women who are intensely afraid of having to make the decision to give her baby up to someone else, afraid that they can't make the decision and end up perpetuating the social problems they themselves are in.

I can't even imagine.... and so I will not condemn; I will support the laws that protect these women from making those decisions in an unsafe environment. Most of them wish they didn't have to make that choice.

Adoption? Yes, it is an option for those of us not in that position, making those decisions. For some of them, adoption is either not an option, or it is too difficult an option.

What if we love on these women, enough to support them and their baby after baby is born? Rather than condemn, are you willing to take "the least" of these women under your wing and support her while she is pregnant, has her baby, and raises her baby, to save the baby's life?

I didn't think so.
 

Lamb

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More people need to be educated on what happens to the unborn. The love for the unborn gets pushed aside for the choice to kill them. Yes, there are thousands of Christians willing to help mothers in need, except too many people shove them toward abortion as a "choice" and thinking that it's love. It's not love. It's getting rid of what they assume is a problem instead of seeing all children as a blessing. It's hating that unborn. But I know so many married couples who cannot have children but also cannot afford the initial $50,000 up front costs for adoption because that's how it is in this country. Cheap to kill but too expensive to sign a piece of paper to save.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Cheap to kill....
And so are the mothers cheap to condemn and move on. But when you have to look them in the eye and help them process grief and trauma the true cost shows up. "cheap to kill" is a statement of the misinformed
 

Lamb

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And so are the mothers cheap to condemn and move on. But when you have to look them in the eye and help them process grief and trauma the true cost shows up. "cheap to kill" is a statement of the misinformed

Of course their conscience is getting to them....they've killed their own child. I have friends who were convinced that it was nothing but some cells and blood when they had their abortions and 30 years later they still mourn because they realized that it wasn't what they were told. It was their actual baby they slaughtered in the womb. Then they ask those around them who told them it would be okay WHY they lied because it wasn't okay.

We need to start telling more people the truth, that these are their babies. They aren't just an inconvenience to their lives. Thousands of people want to adopt but our government makes it much more difficult to do so then to kill the child. Love the mother more by helping her through her pregnancy and allowing her to give her child up to someone who can properly care for him/her. Helping her by being an accomplice to killing her child is NOT love.
 

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I did a quick search using the terms Christian assistance pregnancy and do you know that there are numerous places that pregnant women can go to and receive aid, counseling, all kinds of help (even with their addictions!). The US has a lot of resources but there is this huge lie out there that women cannot get any help.

It would be cool to get a Sticky thread with these resources going in all parts of the world so that women can get the help they need to save their unborn and not feel pressured by society to kill them.
 

Josiah

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I wonder what would happen if we tried to love on the mother rather than condemn her?


I know of none here who have suggested we should love children but not mothers.

I think it is the pro-choice crowd that insists we are to embrace ONE but totally, completely, absolutely condemn the other - even to death.



Let's look at some of those women who make this difficult decision to abort - and don't think it comes easy for them! This decision for most of them is agonizing.
- a young woman in middle school whose body is not prepared to handle pregnancy and birth, and will cause significant damage to her body if she goes through with pregnancy and birth
- a young girl in high school who is sexually active, but who has religiously conservative parents who will throw her out on the street if they found out she is pregnant
- a woman who has a disability and lives in poverty and is unable to afford today's rents
- a woman who has 4 children and got pregnant while on birth control, whose husband just left her for another woman
- a woman who is homeless
- a woman who has addictions and knows she cannot bring a child into such circumstances
- a woman who is mentally unstable and wants to protect her child from being born into the same predisposition
- a woman who must prostitute for a living because wages are too low to support her, let alone a baby
- and so many other women who are intensely afraid of having to make the decision to give her baby up to someone else, afraid that they can't make the decision and end up perpetuating the social problems they themselves are in.


Of course there are difficult situations!!! No one (I know of) remotely denies that. But IMO, the very easy act of killing the BABY is easy but only adds to the tragedy, only adds yet another horrible reality to the situation. It doesn't "undo" anything..... the women still has parental problems, still is homeless, still is addicted, still unstable.... and now party to the murder of a baby.

Friend, it's not the pro-life side of this that is arguing we are simply to condemn ONE here, to totally ignore and leave helpless ONE. Pro-life extends to both mother AND child.... the pro-life side EMBRACES the duality here, it's the pro-choice side that says we can help one by destroying the other. It's the pro-choice side eager to condemn one - even to death.



What if we love on these women, enough to support them and their baby after baby is born?


EXACTLY!

Yet another reason to not embrace the "condemn one of them" side in this. How is killing one loving them? How is killing ever loving?



PERSONAL STORY:

When I was in high school (or of that age), I decided not to attend a regular high school (for academic reasons). I took some classes at the Community College (I started there at 14) - "double dipping" (applying credits both to high school and college), and the rest via a large Baptist School home school program. At 16, I completed all the work for high school AND two years of college.

Anyway, the Baptist School required that all students (in class and home schooled) do 40 hours of community service per semester, half of which would be at your church but only half. I did some via my church but most via Boy Scouts (I was still into scouting) and at a local pro-life center
I worked there several Saturdays - more than the hours I needed for school.

This center was not church related, but nearly all the volunteers were Catholics. There were two admins - one Catholic and one Mormon. On the Board were several Protestants but probably half anyway were Catholics. Funding came mostly from Catholic parishes in our diocese but also from several Protestant and LDS churches...and from individuals. My parents among them... my wife and I are monthly contributors... there are fundraisers (we will be attending one soon). In the facility, there are no "pro-life" literature, there is no political activity or endorsements, no bumper stickers. And if the mother REQUESTS info on how to get an abortion, that's provided. THERE for mothers.....

Some of the services offered all 100% free:

+ Ultrasounds (AMAZING how decisions change when the mother sees her baby)
+ Pregnancy tests
+ Referrals, information and help with community, government and religious services (food, medical care, etc.)
+ Referrals, information and help with mental issues and relationship issues (two licensed professionals are also on staff)
+ Professionals to help with relational issues (even to go with the mother to tell her parents and/or the father)
+ Food, formula, clothes (even help with housing, furniture, washing machines)
+ Diapers (by the truck load)
+ Parenting classes
And more.

Now, I was 14-16... and a BOY. So of course, I was not on staff.... not one of the adults who served the mothers (all women, all mothers). In fact, I was purposely kept away from the areas where the mothers would be. I worked with office stuff.... the storeroom.... even helping deliver stuff to homes; I served behind the scenes largely with other teens and guys. But I was THERE because I wanted to help these moms AND their babies. And to help make the choice of birth a viable one.

This was a very life-changing experience for me. For one thing, there was lots of discussion about sex, about sexual relations... at a very formative time in my life. A lot of girl-guy relations stuff (pretty heavy for a boy my age - but very pointed). But I also learned a lot about mothers - especially single teen mothers (it should be noted most of our people were in their 20's and 30's, not teens but a lot of teens too, some my age).

It IS often painful and tragic. And messy. There's not only the irresponsibility ("animals in heat") and immaturity thing always brought up...but lots of self-esteem issues, lots of power issues, a LOT of problems with family and parents... often counseling is what they needed most. And a LOT of time, these moms felt very much like victims - of the father (who is likely PUSHING with all he has for her to get an abortion), from parents (often PUSHING with all they have for her to get an abortion).... and "friends" can be very complex and really complicate the whole thing. And then there's the whole issue of the baby - adoption? keep? And lots of BIG feelings (and issues!) around that. I heard a lot of crying. There were times those of us behind the scenes did the only thing we could: we stopped and prayed for that mom.

Some think of unmarried teen moms as cute teen cheerleaders who of course are sexually active (and the condom slipped)... or strong girls as in the JUNO movie. I'm sure that happens....but mostly these are victims. Sometimes of themselves and the "life" handed them.... sometimes of "friends" and family... sometimes of boys having to prove something or showing their power or just behaving Abunny rabbits. SHE is now the mother. And often, they do not want to just make the baby the "scapegoat" for all this, punish the baby for this. Adding a victim solves nothing. It's a slogan...but it's often true: Abortion leaves two victims. It leaves her STILL with all the problems she had.... but now with another, she lives with the abortion. One of the major issues for these young moms: How can I deal with my problems, my parents, my friends, this boy.... and not kill my little girl?

We existed because unlike Planned Parenthood, we wanted to help BOTH.... not just kill ONE. We held that killing is never a solution... it just leaves one dead and the other more wounded than before. Sure, killing the baby is easy and quick (and generally government funded) but it just leaves things worse.

The "answer" is not so easy as just putting a knife in there and slicing up the baby. Love isn't that easy.... love doesn't do that at all. Truth is, biologically people can reproduce when that's simply not a good thing. Building responsibility and morality and maturity are key but not so easy! Helping esteem and relationships are critical - but not so easy! Love isn't easy. And it's not accomplished by making the victim the only one here who is guiltless. Killing is easy. Killing is not loving.... and solves absolutely nothing and only means we now have one dead and the other even more wounded.



- Josiah




.






 
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ValleyGal

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it's the pro-choice side that says we can help one by destroying the other. It's the pro-choice side eager to condemn one - even to death.
I am not going to answer the whole post. I'm not interested in the abortion debate because I am not really pro-choice, per se. I simply am a realist who knows that women are going to choose abortion whether I agree or not, whether it's legal or not, whether it's safe or not. I certainly never ever suggested that we can help one by destroying another. And if you think this is an easy fix for mothers, you are sadly mistaken. Most women (that I hear of, at least) agonize over this decision before going through with it. And I'm not sure those of the pro-choice persuasion are eager to condemn, either... it is up to the mother, no one else. There is no joy in abortion for anyone.
Yet another reason to not embrace the "condemn one of them" side in this. How is killing one loving them? How is killing ever loving?
Killing is never loving. And yet Americans still implement capital punishment as legalized killing. Abortion is also legalized killing with the mother as the judge of that fetus's life. But just because they choose not-loving, doesn't mean we should stop loving the mother.

These are the reasons it is so important to have conversations about the language of abortion/life/death/suicide/assisted suicide, etc. I have repeatedly explained my position, and yet I am condemned on these forums as one who is pro-abortion, pro-choice, pro-death... that is far from the truth. Language matters.

That was a beautiful and impactful story you shared.
 

Lamb

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I am not going to answer the whole post. I'm not interested in the abortion debate because I am not really pro-choice, per se. I simply am a realist who knows that women are going to choose abortion whether I agree or not, whether it's legal or not, whether it's safe or not. I certainly never ever suggested that we can help one by destroying another. And if you think this is an easy fix for mothers, you are sadly mistaken. Most women (that I hear of, at least) agonize over this decision before going through with it. And I'm not sure those of the pro-choice persuasion are eager to condemn, either... it is up to the mother, no one else. There is no joy in abortion for anyone.

Killing is never loving. And yet Americans still implement capital punishment as legalized killing. Abortion is also legalized killing with the mother as the judge of that fetus's life. But just because they choose not-loving, doesn't mean we should stop loving the mother.

These are the reasons it is so important to have conversations about the language of abortion/life/death/suicide/assisted suicide, etc. I have repeatedly explained my position, and yet I am condemned on these forums as one who is pro-abortion, pro-choice, pro-death... that is far from the truth. Language matters.

That was a beautiful and impactful story you shared.

Yes, the mothers agonize over it as it should be. Killing their own child, outside of the womb would put them immediately in jail, but people advocate for their right to kill him/her while in the womb. The more people are misled into thinking it's better overall to happen, the more people become accustomed to the horror of it so that's why I say they turn a blind eye to the fact that a baby is being killed.
 

Lamb

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But just because they choose not-loving, doesn't mean we should stop loving the mother.

Who has said to stop loving the mother?
 

ValleyGal

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Who has said to stop loving the mother?
It just feels like an atmosphere of condemnation if a mother chooses abortion. They don't have to answer to me. They have to answer to God. I value her right to choose as much as I value my own right to choose, even if that is a path of sin. But in conversations such as these we are having, it feels very much like [some] condemn the mother just because she chooses a different path than the one we as believers want them to take.
 

Lamb

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It just feels like an atmosphere of condemnation if a mother chooses abortion. They don't have to answer to me. They have to answer to God. I value her right to choose as much as I value my own right to choose, even if that is a path of sin. But in conversations such as these we are having, it feels very much like [some] condemn the mother just because she chooses a different path than the one we as believers want them to take.

Condemning the sin is not necessarily NOT LOVING the person. The same with homosexuality. I have about a hundred friends who are gay and even though I don't agree with their lifestyle, I don't hate them.

Could you point out exactly HOW in this atmosphere the MOTHER is being condemned and not the ACT?
 

ValleyGal

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It's the tone.
 

Lamb

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It's the tone.

On the internet? That's subjective perception only and not proof. You make the claim that in this conversation there is condemnation of the mothers (and I'm not referring to the act itself) so please show proof. Since you can't know what's inside anyone's head, you can only go on what's actually been written.
 

ValleyGal

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Tone definitely comes across in language. It was very apparent on the other thread in discussion with Tango.
"medical procedure"
"abort"
"killed the baby"
"murderer!"
They all mean the same thing, but the last is disrespectful and condemning.
 

Lamb

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Tone definitely comes across in language. It was very apparent on the other thread in discussion with Tango.
"medical procedure"
"abort"
"killed the baby"
"murderer!"
They all mean the same thing, but the last is disrespectful and condemning.

"medical procedure" is the act.

"abort" is the act.

"killed the baby" is the act.

"murderer" is not found in this thread except by you when I do ctrl F to find the word.

Are you sure you're not reading into things more than what's there?

As I said before, the act is different from addressing the person. I can hate the act and love the person.
 

Lamb

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For fun I did a search of the entire site and there is no "murderer" found in any recent abortion threads.

Murder is an act.

Murderer addresses the person.

If language is so important then those two things have to be distinguished...the act and the person. Addressing the act is not condemning the person.
 

Lamb

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"There’s a post making the social media rounds in which a liberal pastor takes pro-life people to task, essentially calling the religious ones fake Christians. In so many words, he states that pro-lifers advocate for unborn humans out of convenience and hatred."

Are Pro-Life People Fake Christians?


"Let’s be clear: this is a baseless attack on all pro-life Christians. Dave Barnhart’s argument is fundamentally that because we don’t abandon unborn children to support his pet political agenda, we’re fake Christians. He implies that pro-life people don’t love “people who breathe” and, because Christians must love other people in order to love Jesus, we’re just claiming to love Jesus and lying to ourselves and others. Unfortunately, many people seem to think this hot take is a profound take-down of the pro-life movement."


"Pro-life people spend time and money trying to save lives and teach others the truth about the human nature we share with even the earliest zygote. Pro-life people have been murdered, they’ve gone to jail, they’ve been assaulted, they’ve been vandalized, they’ve been ridiculed—and, not that it bears mentioning in the same sentence, we deal with people like Barnhart gaslighting us about our faith by implying that we’re just fake Christians who don’t truly follow Christ."


"In 2019 alone, Care Net affiliates provided 786,785 clients with free services valued at over $84 million. Barnhart conveniently ignores the actions which demonstrate our care for children and women, both before and after birth. Perhaps he’s concerned that they speak louder than his words?"


"Of course, he doesn’t think we really care about unborn humans. In his mind, pro-life “Christians” (air quotes, because we’re fake Christians, after all) all got together and decided that the easiest way to earn neighbor points to fool Jesus into letting us into Heaven was to pretend to care about unborn people, then drop them as soon as they’re born. After all, we fake Christians don’t like “people who breathe”—a fact Barnhart inferred simply from our opposition to abortion!"


"Surely he just doesn’t know what happens in abortion? That must be it. Maybe he thinks it’s just “unplugging” from the embryo. Maybe he’s unaware that unborn humans are suffocated, burned, stabbed, shredded, poisoned, and dismembered. That would explain his callousness."


"Christianity can no more approve of burning children with saline solution and killing them with medical implements than burning and killing children on a superheated idol. Christ said not to “despise one of these little ones” (Matthew 18:10) and not to hinder them from coming to Him (Matthew 19:14). Just for a moment, take seriously the pro-life argument that the embryo in the womb is a valuable person with rights, a child loved by God. If “Jesus loves the little children,” how can we defend brutally killing them?"
 

tango

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Because IDay's thread keeps getting derailed with discussion on abortion, I am starting this thread for those who are not interested in discussing the language used around choice, abortion, murder, etc. However, it's a little different. Have at it here - I likely won't participate, but here is a thought-provoking statement. I got this from a FB post. It was written by Methodist Pastor David Barnhart, tag david-barnhart.

"The unborn" are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don't resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don't ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don't need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don't bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any owrk at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them because they cease to be unborn. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus, but actually dislike people who breathe. Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn."

Yep, the unborn are easy to love and advocate for. And the mothers of the dead unborn are easy to condemn, just as those who are divorced, who are "living in sin" (living together), who smoke marijuana, who don't work for a living and the state has to support, those who have addictions, those who (insert sin or other undesirable quality).

I wonder what would happen if we tried to love on the mother rather than condemn her? Let's look at some of those women who make this difficult decision to abort - and don't think it comes easy for them! This decision for most of them is agonizing.
- a young woman in middle school whose body is not prepared to handle pregnancy and birth, and will cause significant damage to her body if she goes through with pregnancy and birth
- a young girl in high school who is sexually active, but who has religiously conservative parents who will throw her out on the street if they found out she is pregnant
- a woman who has a disability and lives in poverty and is unable to afford today's rents
- a woman who has 4 children and got pregnant while on birth control, whose husband just left her for another woman
- a woman who is homeless
- a woman who has addictions and knows she cannot bring a child into such circumstances
- a woman who is mentally unstable and wants to protect her child from being born into the same predisposition
- a woman who must prostitute for a living because wages are too low to support her, let alone a baby
- and so many other women who are intensely afraid of having to make the decision to give her baby up to someone else, afraid that they can't make the decision and end up perpetuating the social problems they themselves are in.

I can't even imagine.... and so I will not condemn; I will support the laws that protect these women from making those decisions in an unsafe environment. Most of them wish they didn't have to make that choice.

Adoption? Yes, it is an option for those of us not in that position, making those decisions. For some of them, adoption is either not an option, or it is too difficult an option.

What if we love on these women, enough to support them and their baby after baby is born? Rather than condemn, are you willing to take "the least" of these women under your wing and support her while she is pregnant, has her baby, and raises her baby, to save the baby's life?

I didn't think so.

Lots of good points in here, although ending with "I didn't think so" turns the whole thing into little more than a sanctimonious rant.
 

tango

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Tone definitely comes across in language. It was very apparent on the other thread in discussion with Tango.
"medical procedure"
"abort"
"killed the baby"
"murderer!"
They all mean the same thing, but the last is disrespectful and condemning.

Tone may come across in the spoken word. In the written word tone as perceived by the reader may or may not bear any resemblance to the tone intended by the writer.

I don't recall using the term "murderer" in the context of abortion. Calling use of the term disrespectful and condemning is a matter of opinion and comes back to the question of what counts as a life and what counts as ending a life. If I shot my next door neighbor because his presence was an inconvenience to me would you call it disrespectful if I were described as a murderer?
 

tango

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"There’s a post making the social media rounds in which a liberal pastor takes pro-life people to task, essentially calling the religious ones fake Christians. In so many words, he states that pro-lifers advocate for unborn humans out of convenience and hatred."

Are Pro-Life People Fake Christians?


"Let’s be clear: this is a baseless attack on all pro-life Christians. Dave Barnhart’s argument is fundamentally that because we don’t abandon unborn children to support his pet political agenda, we’re fake Christians. He implies that pro-life people don’t love “people who breathe” and, because Christians must love other people in order to love Jesus, we’re just claiming to love Jesus and lying to ourselves and others. Unfortunately, many people seem to think this hot take is a profound take-down of the pro-life movement."

I suspect part of the problem is that, as with most other groups that are large enough, there are some within the group holding views that are sufficiently inconsistent that it makes it easier to mock the entire group. It's a hugely intellectually lazy approach but it's easier to knock down a strawman than to address an actual argument and in an increasingly tribal world it seems there are enough on both sides to cheer loudly when someone makes a point that supports their side that it drowns out sensible discussion (throw in a few handy one-liners like "Didn't think so" for bonus points).

It is absurd to claim that the thing in the womb counts as a human but the thing that washed up dead on the beach doesn't. It is absurd to demand a pregnant women carry her baby to term because the unborn life matters and then demand she raise the child totally unaided because the born life no longer matters (or because she made her bed and should lie in it conveniently overlooking, among other things, the fact that a man was probably involved in the process somewhere)

Sadly the simple solution of not having sex gets lost in the midst of all the right-on howling about freedoms. It doesn't seem like rocket science to abstain from sex until you're in a place where you can cope with a baby but these days you'd be forgiven for thinking it was a radical approach.
 
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