Neighbors

[ImaginaryDay2]

I might have shared before that I live in an above ground basement suite in a decent area of town - outside the city center, good location, nice environment. My rent is below the market for other suites of this type and I have use of an outside patio area. It's a good place.

The family that lived in the primary part of the home for the last year and a half recently moved out. Soundproofing in the house isn't the best and I'd hear occasional heavy footsteps - a minor annoyance, but tolerable.

The family that moved in has a child with some challenges. I want to make VERY CLEAR at the start that I DON'T blame their child for his challenges. They appear to be developmental challenges that result in frequent outbursts and over-activity including running across the floors. With the soundproofing being what it is, I hear every outburst and episode of running and stomping and it's quite loud. TV or something to create ambient noise on my end mitigates it to a degree. I've been wanting to take the next year or so to save up some significant money and really don't want to leave where I am. Any suggestions?

 

[psalms 91]

I think you might have to tolerate it or move as I doubt there is little that the parent can do if the child has issues. You could try talking to them and make them aware of how much you hear and if they are in a position to afford it maybe do some soundproofing. Tango does a lot of remodeling and perhaps he would have some cheap suggestions for you on how to cut down on the noise

 

[Lamb]

Do you have a drop ceiling where you can stick in some insulation?

 

[tango]

I might have shared before that I live in an above ground basement suite in a decent area of town - outside the city center, good location, nice environment. My rent is below the market for other suites of this type and I have use of an outside patio area. It's a good place.

The family that lived in the primary part of the home for the last year and a half recently moved out. Soundproofing in the house isn't the best and I'd hear occasional heavy footsteps - a minor annoyance, but tolerable.

The family that moved in has a child with some challenges. I want to make VERY CLEAR at the start that I DON'T blame their child for his challenges. They appear to be developmental challenges that result in frequent outbursts and over-activity including running across the floors. With the soundproofing being what it is, I hear every outburst and episode of running and stomping and it's quite loud. TV or something to create ambient noise on my end mitigates it to a degree. I've been wanting to take the next year or so to save up some significant money and really don't want to leave where I am. Any suggestions?

To what extent are you allowed (and willing) to modify your space?

Sometimes there's only so much you can do but if you can muffle the sound a little it becomes more tolerable. Usually all that is between the ceiling and the floor above is an air space, and if you can fill the space with something you may be able to deaden the sound. You can get rolls of fiberglass relatively cheaply, although logistically fitting it into a space from below can be frustrating because gravity is fighting you every step of the way. You can also get heavier material that's similar in nature that is designed more with sound deadening in mind, and you may be able to cut rigid insulation panels to fit. The trouble is you'll have to either take down your ceiling (undesirable, messy etc) and then replace it (more expensive, more hassle etc), or lift their floor (unlikely to happen) and then replace it.

There are assorted materials you can spray into spaces that cause a lot less disruption because all you need to do is make a smallish hole for the nozzle to go in, and then the material squirts into the space. Sprayed cellulose is the sort of thing you can do yourself - you can rent the machine from somewhere like Lowe's. Then there are more rigid foams that stick to everything and need to be professionally done - I don't know if they can be sprayed into a cavity from one end.

Whatever you do will almost certainly require the landlord's permission. You may be able to get the landlord to help with some or all of the cost, especially if it makes the apartment more desirable.

Another possibility, although this is one you might not want to pursue, is to look to see whether the kind of noise you are experiencing is a violation of the family's lease. You don't blame the child for the outbursts (quite rightly) but at some point the parents have to take responsibility for managing them, redirecting them, or otherwise making sure their kid doesn't make your home unbearable. It makes more sense to look to manage it rather than move straight to trying to get them evicted over it but if their lease requires noise levels to be controlled and they aren't complying with it you may have another lever there.

As a bonus if you add insulation to your ceilings you'll keep more of your heat for yourself, rather than having it escape through the ceiling meaning you pay and the apartment above benefits.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

For sure I'd want to go the route of some sort of soundproofing if anything, and leave that to the landlord. The residential tenancy act stipulates that each tenant adhere to the principle of "quiet enjoyment" of their property - essentially the right to a peaceful environment for self and others (within reason). So, if my neighbors were having a bit of a party and wrapped it up around 10 or so, that might irk me that I wasn't invited, but it wouldn't be an issue with 'quiet enjoyment'; but constant partying until 1 a.m. would. And the same goes for me not to make unreasonable noise so as to disturb my neighbors. So either way (the soundproofing, the noise, or both), it's an issue for me to take up with the landlord first. And because this can be a sensitive issue given the situation with their child, for which I have all the compassion in the world, I want to address it the right way.

 

[tango]

Compassion is certainly a good thing, although these days there seems to be a growing tendency to assume that rules don't apply because of some reason or another. In your case it's quite reasonable to accept that the child may not be able to control their outbursts but to argue that you should accept intrusive noise just because the child has issues isn't reasonable.

If your rent is significantly below the going rate you could have issues with persuading the landlord to pay to install soundproofing without a rent increase. For a time I rented a property to an older lady who constantly whined about how she didn't have much money. The place she rented was tired in many ways but I figured if she's paying less than market rate for a property that really needs some updating it works. But then she started to expect the property to be updated, all the while complaining she didn't have money (but of course she had money to eat out multiple times a week). From there it was a very short time before I figured there was no way I was going to invest the money to update the property for a below market rent, she couldn't afford to pay market rent, and her whining became troublesome so when her lease expired I didn't renew it.

Depending on the law regarding tenancy renewals where you live it might be worth being aware of how things may pan out. If the law allows the landlord to decline to renew a lease "for any reason or for no reason" be careful about creating a situation where you become the tenant who wants something reasonable but that creates trouble for the landlord. From their perspective installing soundproofing is potentially expensive and troublesome, and removing the family from the unit above you means they end up with an empty property for a time.

 

[tango]

Compassion is certainly a good thing, although these days there seems to be a growing tendency to assume that rules don't apply because of some reason or another. In your case it's quite reasonable to accept that the child may not be able to control their outbursts but to argue that you should accept intrusive noise just because the child has issues isn't reasonable.

If your rent is significantly below the going rate you could have issues with persuading the landlord to pay to install soundproofing without a rent increase. For a time I rented a property to an older lady who constantly whined about how she didn't have much money. The place she rented was tired in many ways but I figured if she's paying less than market rate for a property that really needs some updating it works. But then she started to expect the property to be updated, all the while complaining she didn't have money (but of course she had money to eat out multiple times a week). From there it was a very short time before I figured there was no way I was going to invest the money to update the property for a below market rent, she couldn't afford to pay market rent, and her whining became troublesome so when her lease expired I didn't renew it.

Depending on the law regarding tenancy renewals where you live it might be worth being aware of how things may pan out. If the law allows the landlord to decline to renew a lease "for any reason or for no reason" be careful about creating a situation where you become the tenant who wants something reasonable but that creates trouble for the landlord. From their perspective installing soundproofing is potentially expensive and troublesome, and removing the family from the unit above you means they end up with an empty property for a time.

ETA: Of course if the family has a "problem child" your landlord may decide that it's better to get rid of them than to go through a succession of tenants in your unit in short order, each breaking their contract because of the noise and potentially litigating for the return of their deposit due to the noise.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Had a chance to meet the lady renting the place. She has three kids, not two, so has her hands full. She's aware of the noise and was apologetic. She seems pretty reasonable and seems like she'll be a good neighbor overall. It's a period of adjustment for her kids, too, as she said they're adjusting to having someone else living so close to them as well (i.e., me). So it's reasonable to expect an adjustment period for all of us.

So the 'good neighbor' policy seems to be the best starting place and we'll see how that progresses.

 

[tango]

Had a chance to meet the lady renting the place. She has three kids, not two, so has her hands full. She's aware of the noise and was apologetic. She seems pretty reasonable and seems like she'll be a good neighbor overall. It's a period of adjustment for her kids, too, as she said they're adjusting to having someone else living so close to them as well (i.e., me). So it's reasonable to expect an adjustment period for all of us.

So the 'good neighbor' policy seems to be the best starting place and we'll see how that progresses.

That's a good starting point, if she's aware there's an issue and plans to keep at least reasonably well on top of it that's half the battle won already.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

So an update. I finally went to the landlord with a 'Loss of Quiet Enjoyment' letter. It's basically a form letter that a person edits as they need, but I've let him know now in writing what the issue is. So now he's responsible to address it with the tenant. It came to a head on Sunday when I wanted to sit outside for a bit. The neighbors were having a get-together - which they have a right to - however the kids were slamming around on the floors. I went outside for a bit and said slamming continues on the balcony above my head. LOUD slamming, stomping, screaming, etc. On go the headphones. More slamming and shaking of the balcony.

This morning at 7:30 am - pounding on the floors above my head. It's all I can make it out to be - someone literally taking their fists and pounding on the floor. Along with more running and screaming. And I'm up out of bed. After a few expletives, I'm doing some slamming of doors myself, then outside to chill out.

Waiting to hear back from the landlord...

 

[MoreCoffee]

So an update. I finally went to the landlord with a 'Loss of Quiet Enjoyment' letter. It's basically a form letter that a person edits as they need, but I've let him know now in writing what the issue is. So now he's responsible to address it with the tenant. It came to a head on Sunday when I wanted to sit outside for a bit. The neighbors were having a get-together - which they have a right to - however the kids were slamming around on the floors. I went outside for a bit and said slamming continues on the balcony above my head. LOUD slamming, stomping, screaming, etc. On go the headphones. More slamming and shaking of the balcony.

This morning at 7:30 am - pounding on the floors above my head. It's all I can make it out to be - someone literally taking their fists and pounding on the floor. Along with more running and screaming. And I'm up out of bed. After a few expletives, I'm doing some slamming of doors myself, then outside to chill out.

Waiting to hear back from the landlord...

Kids are hard to keep quiet and probably ought not be living in high density dwellings like apartment buildings. They'd be better off with a garden and some space between them and neighbours.

 

[Lamb]

If I ever had to move to another apartment I would look at a 55+ community and beg them to let me in!

 

[tango]

Kids are hard to keep quiet and probably ought not be living in high density dwellings like apartment buildings. They'd be better off with a garden and some space between them and neighbours.

Which is great, if the parents can afford such a place. If they can't, too bad for anyone stuck living below them.

Most people would be better off with a garden and a bit of space. It's just that most people, particularly in expensive areas, can't afford to live in a place like that.

 

[tango]

If I ever had to move to another apartment I would look at a 55+ community and beg them to let me in!

My parents considered that but decided against it, because they didn't want to be next to someone who was hard of hearing and turned the TV up really loud to compensate.

 

[Lamb]

My parents considered that but decided against it, because they didn't want to be next to someone who was hard of hearing and turned the TV up really loud to compensate.

Ow. Didn't think of that.

 

[tango]

Ow. Didn't think of that.

I hadn't considered it either. As I get older what I want more and more is enough land around me that I don't have to deal with noise from anyone else. Maybe I'll end up living in a hut in the mountains. I can be the weird guy with a gray beard that reaches the ground.

 

[NewCreation435]

I'm sure the parents don't like it anymore than you do. Perhaps praying for them is in order

 

[tango]

I'm sure the parents don't like it anymore than you do. Perhaps praying for them is in order

Sadly this sort of thing can't be assumed any more. Sometimes parents are trying to keep children in order against the odds but there seem to be more and more parents out there who just don't care that their offspring are a nuisance to others.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'm sure the parents don't like it anymore than you do. Perhaps praying for them is in order

Have you ever known prayers to silence a screaming child?

He could try burning incense and chanting as a means of silencing those above

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I'm sure the parents don't like it anymore than you do. Perhaps praying for them is in order

Absolutely, and I don't want this to come across as hate for mom or kids. Mom has her hands full, and is pretty decent for the times I've talked with her. The kids get all the respect in the world from me when I see them. I understand that kids are kids and there will be noise - that's the nature of kids - they're active, they argue, the run across floors, etc. And I can deal with that at 2:00 in the afternoon, suppertime, whatever. But 10:00 at night, or 7:30 on a day off when I'm trying to sleep in a bit, no. And I'm not concerned so much with normal activity for the family. There's disruptive pounding going on that disturbs my sleep or quiet hours (after 10:00), even middle of the day it becomes disruptive this way, and that's the issue. And I don't have the luxury of buying my own place, nor do I want to. So I've done what I needed to. The landlord addressed it, and the tenant understood the issue.