Lutheran ministerial authority

Tigger

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I know that Lutherans teach on the doctrine of vocations when in comes to the office of Pastor and that they are to be called by a particular congregation but I was wondering the biblical and historical presidence and references. Especially concerning the consecration of the Eucharist.
 

Lamb

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Are you asking if only the Pastor can consecrate?
 

Tigger

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Sorry I know I didn't sate my question very well:paranoid:

Let me try it this way. The RC & Orthodox teach that their ministerial authority comes from apostolic succession. How do Lutherans derive their teachings both biblical and historical practices.
 

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Gotcha! :priest2:

I don't know the answers off the top of my head but I searched and read that there ARE some Lutherans that believe in apostolic succession. I was surprised by that actually. I personally do not believe it.
 

Josiah

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LUTHERANISM has no official doctrine here.

Apostolic Succession:

Except for a very few, new and tiny groups which happen to have "Lutheran" in their name, Lutherans do not hold to Apostolic Succession in the way that the RCC (and to a lesser degree) the EOC and various OOC communities do. THAT SAID, many Lutheran denominations (including the ELCA in the USA) hold to SOME sense of it, in that it is "important" that there be as "chain of ordainations" going back to the Apostles. It simply is not defined WHY this is important or WHAT specifically results from that - apart from some vague sense of therefore the OFFICE continues. Thing is: no one can document such a "chain" back to the Apostles. No Catholic, no Eastern Orthodox, no Anglican, no Lutheran. No one. Now, there are pure fantasy, retroactively and creative "lists" around but these have no historical connect whatsoever to reality (at least before 300 AD and in nearly all cases, a LOT later than that). There's a good reason: We have precious few documents of ordinations from the first 3 centuries, and not many for some 5 additional centuries: we simply cannot document who ordained who, in an unbroken chain, back to Jesus appointing the 12. Such just doens't exist. A few recorded ordainations here and there, but no unbroken chains. A FEW bishops MAY have this - but not for ordinations in general. It wasn't until the 4th Century that Christians began KEEPING records of such things.... and often not well preserved until well into the middle ages. BUT where there aren't contemporary records, we DO know that from the very earliest of times (probably going back to the Apostles) only the ordained ordained. It was simply the practice, the custom that laity did not ordain anyone (not even their own pastor), ONLY ordained clergy did this. This historical CUSTOM was so early and so strong that it CAN be surmised that all the ordained today (in mainstream denominations anyway) have a "chain of ordainations" going back to the Apostles. The specific names in this family tree are IMPOSSIBLE to know (probably before the 10th Century and certainly before the 4th) simply because the records don't exist (and perhaps never did) but we can reasonably know that there is an unbroken line of ordinations - including the laying on of hands - going back to the 12. In a GENERAL sense, it's reasonably known: it just CANNOT be documented with reliable, contemporary written records. Even my own Catholic priest admitted this, saying that the record he had was "a matter of faith and not history." Of course, this is as true of my LCMS pastor as it is of my former RCC one. It would be just as true of a Methodist or Anglican pastor, too.


Pastoral Authority:

There is no Lutheran doctrine here, but there are some STRONG customs.

Many Lutheran bodies believe that the OFFICE per se, as such, has authorities. Others (including my LCMS) believe that all ministerial authority belongs to the whole of the church - but that when they extend a CALL to a pastor, in part that is thereby, by that, in a sense transferred to their pastor who now speaks and acts IN THEIR STEAD, on their behalf, at least as a "public office." Frankly, there's not much practical difference: Whether he has some "authority" by virtue of being in the pastoral office OR acts by authority of the people because he is in the pastoral office.... well.... in practice, it doesn't matter much. But none (but a few, tiny, very tiny, wackadoodle "Lutheran" denominations) because this comes BECAUSE they can document all the names of those in their own "family tree" of the ordained back to Jesus.





I hope this helps.



- Josiah
 

Tigger

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Thx guys that does help. No wonder why I had no luck researching it.
 

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Let me try this from a different angle now that I've had time to think about the subject a little bit more.

Even though there isn't an offical Lutheran statement on this subject would it be fair to say that Lutheran ministerial authority meaning (being authorized by Christ as He is the head of the church) comes from the proclamation of God's word like in consecrating the communion elements, over baptismal waters and in holy orders?
 

Josiah

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Let me try this from a different angle now that I've had time to think about the subject a little bit more.

Even though there isn't an offical Lutheran statement on this subject would it be fair to say that Lutheran ministerial authority meaning (being authorized by Christ as He is the head of the church) comes from the proclamation of God's word like in consecrating the communion elements, over baptismal waters and in holy orders?


I, for one, am unable to address that. You might consider asking at question at the LCMS and WELS websites (I suspect you won't get exactly the same answer, however). Over the years, I've developed a trusting/respectful relationship with a prof at Concordia - St. Louis whom I've emailed a FEW times. But I hesitate to overstep my welcome there.... and since this isn't so much MY question, I think it best not to forward it. But you might try going to their website and seeing if any there chooses to answer it (be aware - 'answers' OFTEN including reading a few books and then getting back to them!). The LCMS site gives short, easier replies - but lay oriented and often not too complete. You might also try http://www.worldvieweverlasting.com/ The pastor there (LCMS) in MY opinion at times goes a bit too far, but he often DOES make valid points and he is clear. You might check the site there - there are already HUNDREDS of questions addressed there (this one likely is) and he does take up a question almost daily.

Good luck.


(Maybe if you had a very specific example, I MIGHT be able to weigh in with at least my opinion.....)



Thanks!


- Josiah
 
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