Jesus can change people?

[Milarepa]

I'm interested in peoples experience of being changed by their faith... does that happen?
I've heard of people turning their life around, but is it a common experience that your personality or character is changed or developed after you believe?
Maybe an ongoing process?
Is there an ongoing development of character?
An overcoming of distortions in the character of a person, growing through the effects of abuse?

Is Jesus a psychotherapist for some people?

(If you have a story, please share)

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

I'm interested in peoples experience of being changed by their faith... does that happen?

Yes, it does happen. Just type terms such as "Christian" "testimony" "Jesus" into the YouTube search bar and you'll come across thousands of personal testimonies of people whose lives were radically changed after they "found Christ" in some way or another (whatever that means - yes, I'm being envious of them because I've been seeking Him for a year or more and things just seem to be getting worse and worse for me). There are even pastors who lived their youth in sin and then were "saved" by Jesus when they were about to hit rock-bottom (for example pastor Todd White - you should watch his video testimony).

I've heard of people turning their life around, but is it a common experience that your personality or character is changed or developed after you believe? Maybe an ongoing process?

As far as I'm aware, there are not many human studies to estimate the frequency and degrees of personality and character alteration in people who become believers. Some people have instantaneous and permanent radical personality changes. For others, it is a process (called sanctification), meaning that they might still backslide / slip into sin every now and then until they grow in their faith.

Is there an ongoing development of character?

Provided you put enough time and effort into praying and reading the Bible. The problem is that, without the help of The Holy Spirit, praying and reading the Bible can be very boring and strenous tasks, as evil spirits constantly attack you in various ways.

An overcoming of distortions in the character of a person, growing through the effects of abuse?

There are various types of prayers for overcoming abuse. Deliverance might be needed in some cases.

 

[Lamb]

I've been a Christian practically all my life since my mom was a Christian and so were my relatives. For me personally, there can be areas of growth but also what I've seen is that the older I become, the more aware of my sins I become. I realize that I am not perfect and no matter how hard I try that I can't achieve that goal. And that's why Jesus had to come to earth and live that perfectly obedient life we could not. He is God and only God can attain perfection, not fallen man. Only He could die on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins and that's what faith clings to. Faith can't look at self and see that salvation is near, faith has to look to what God has done for us.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

And that's why Jesus had to come to earth and live that perfectly obedient life we could not.

Why was there a need for someone to live a perfectly obedient life?

 

[Lamb]

Why was there a need for someone to live a perfectly obedient life?

Because only the sinless one could die on the cross for atonement.

 

[tango]

Why was there a need for someone to live a perfectly obedient life?

The Law required a sacrifice to atone for sin. If you look through the list of sacrifices in Leviticus the requirement was typically for a lamb without blemish. If someone didn't live that perfect life they would be blemished, and therefore not suitable as a sacrifice.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

The Law required a sacrifice to atone for sin.

Why did the law require that?

 

[Lamb]

Why did the law require that?

Because God put that into motion. It began with the sacrifices of unblemished animals which was a shadow of things to come (Jesus).

 

[tango]

Why did the law require that?

God handed down the laws. Why God required that is above my pay grade.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

So you don't know whether He could have acted differently and not give the law?

 

[tango]

So you don't know whether He could have acted differently and not give the law?

It doesn't matter whether he could have given a different law. The law is what we have.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

It doesn't matter whether he could have given a different law. The law is what we have.

Of course it matters. What do you mean it doesn't matter? If God could have saved us in a way that did not involve suffering, but chose to do it in a way that involved suffering, then that would be incompatible with the claim of omnibenevolence.

 

[Lamb]

Of course it matters. What do you mean it doesn't matter? If God could have saved us in a way that did not involve suffering, but chose to do it in a way that involved suffering, then that would be incompatible with the claim of omnibenevolence.

He is God and can handle His own suffering which is why He came to earth in the form of man and died on the cross in our place so we wouldn't have to suffer for our salvation. That's benevolent.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

He is God and can handle His own suffering which is why He came to earth in the form of man and died on the cross in our place so we wouldn't have to suffer for our salvation. That's benevolent.

It is benevolent, but, if it could have been done in any other way that did not involve suffering, it's not omnibenevolent. And what do you mean by we don't have to suffer for our salvation? There is plenty of suffering in this world.

Why does anyone need to suffer for salvation? Salvation could be freely given. And salvation from what? From a sin that our ancestors committed? Is humanity a hivemind? In several aspects throughout the Bible, God seems to treat us like we're a collective, not individuals. To me, this seems very messed up. We have little control over each other's actions, so why would we be responsible for the consequences of the actions of others?

If you see someone who can't swim in a lake screaming for help, and you are a skilled scuba diver, all dressed up with the diving suit and have all the gear ready for use, and you could swim and rescue that person, but instead you decide to leave the scuba gear in the boat and just swim in your beach shorts, and you manage to bring the person to the shore, but both you and that person suffer injuries because you didn't use the gear, then people would be entitled to ask you why you chose to not do it in an easier manner.

 

[tango]

Of course it matters. What do you mean it doesn't matter? If God could have saved us in a way that did not involve suffering, but chose to do it in a way that involved suffering, then that would be incompatible with the claim of omnibenevolence.

It doesn't matter in the sense that speculation is pointless. God could have created the earth as a giant bouncy castle with gravity that inverted every few seconds, so we'd all be bouncing around everywhere wondering why nothing stayed still.

If we impose our views of what we think God should have done we're essentially saying we know better than God. Unless you want to exalt yourself above the Most High I'd be careful about going there. It didn't end well for Lucifer.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

If we impose our views of what we think God should have done we're essentially saying we know better than God. Unless you want to exalt yourself above the Most High I'd be careful about going there. It didn't end well for Lucifer.

So... appeal to fear? That's completely incompatible with a Being Who is described as love and light.

 

[tango]

So... appeal to fear? That's completely incompatible with a Being Who is described as love and light.

It's not an appeal to fear at all. I'm just saying I wouldn't be too quick to assume that I know better than God.

Trying to become greater than God is what Lucifer did and it didn't work out well for him. Not an appeal to fear, just a statement of what's in the Bible. It's in Isaiah 14 if you want to read it for yourself.

Are you trying to say you know better than God how things should be done?

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

It's not an appeal to fear at all. I'm just saying I wouldn't be too quick to assume that I know better than God.

Trying to become greater than God is what Lucifer did and it didn't work out well for him. Not an appeal to fear, just a statement of what's in the Bible. It's in Isaiah 14 if you want to read it for yourself.

Are you trying to say you know better than God how things should be done?

I'm trying to say that I'm experiencing the way He does things in my life and I don't like it. I'm also trying to say that I find myself able to imagine ways in which things could be done differently. Putting the two together, I guess you could come to that conclusion, yes.

I don't know enough about the story of lucifer to make any speculations about what his issue was, but I like to think that asking questions about why he was suffering was not the reason why he angered God.

 

[Lamb]

It is benevolent, but, if it could have been done in any other way that did not involve suffering, it's not omnibenevolent. And what do you mean by we don't have to suffer for our salvation? There is plenty of suffering in this world.

Why does anyone need to suffer for salvation? Salvation could be freely given. And salvation from what? From a sin that our ancestors committed? Is humanity a hivemind? In several aspects throughout the Bible, God seems to treat us like we're a collective, not individuals. To me, this seems very messed up. We have little control over each other's actions, so why would we be responsible for the consequences of the actions of others?

If you see someone who can't swim in a lake screaming for help, and you are a skilled scuba diver, all dressed up with the diving suit and have all the gear ready for use, and you could swim and rescue that person, but instead you decide to leave the scuba gear in the boat and just swim in your beach shorts, and you manage to bring the person to the shore, but both you and that person suffer injuries because you didn't use the gear, then people would be entitled to ask you why you chose to not do it in an easier manner.

Our suffering doesn't contribute to our salvation. Jesus is the way to our salvation, not something we do or suffer through.

You point out very well about the collective and that's how the Hebrews would think too...and rightfully so. It's the Greeks that brought "individualism" out more. The Hebrews didn't think of me, me, me, they thought about their families and their peoples as a whole. Even the New Testament points out that as believers we are the Church...not separate little churches like we have here on earth with denominations, but collectively, we are the Church. We are one.

You couldn't help what Adam and Eve did in the garden. But you need to consider what the effects of what they did actually passed onto the world.

What if you had a terrarium with pets inside and they caused the outside to crack? Their little children and their little children had to suffer with that crack until the owner could fix it. It's like our world...damaged because of sin. I know it's a very bad analogy and most analogies are pretty awful, but it brings out the fact that you aren't just being punished for Adam's one sin...you endure the consequences of his sin and now because of Jesus' death, you can have eternal life instead of eternal separation from God.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

you endure the consequences of his sin and now because of Jesus' death, you can have eternal life instead of eternal separation from God.

I endure the consequences of his sin despite the fact that God could have fixed those consequences before Adam could have had children, thus preventing any other being besides those who sinned to suffer the consequences of their ancestors' sins.

And no, according to Scripture, I don't seem to be able to have eternal life (instead of separation from God) because I'm angry at Him and unable to find the sacrifice of Jesus coherent and, therefore, unable to believe in it.