Is penance biblical?

[Andrew]

Definition: voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.

How is this biblical?

 

[Lamb]

Definition: voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.

How is this biblical?

Jesus took on the punishment meant for our having done wrong (sin), so anything we think we can do to punish ourselves as payment is not biblical and is a slap in the face to the man who already suffered for us.

 

[Josiah]

DEFINITION: a sacrament, as in the Roman Catholic Church, consisting in a confession of sin, made with sorrow and with the intention of amendment, followed by the forgiveness of the sin.

While not a specific "sacrament" in Protestantism (I think it is in Anglicanism, however) it IS embraced and practiced. It simply means CONFESSION, confessing our sins (especially to a fellow Christian rather than EXCLUSIVELY to God only). I think this is biblical.



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[Andrew]

Jesus took on the punishment meant for our having done wrong (sin), so anything we think we can do to punish ourselves as payment is not biblical and is a slap in the face to the man who already suffered for us.

Exactly, and it's even more backwards when you think of it, it makes praying a form of punishment and it also gives one a false sense of repentance and allows them immunity to willfully sin without ever feeling any true conviction of the heart.

What a silly ritual

 

[Andrew]

DEFINITION: a sacrament, as in the Roman Catholic Church, consisting in a confession of sin, made with sorrow and with the intention of amendment, followed by the forgiveness of the sin.

While not a specific "sacrament" in Protestantism (I think it is in Anglicanism, however) it IS embraced and practiced. It simply means CONFESSION, confessing our sins (especially to a fellow Christian rather than EXCLUSIVELY to God only). I think this is biblical.



.

Well of course that's biblical, but I'm referring to penance after confession, like 50 Hail Marys

 

[Stephen]

1459 Many sins wrong our neighbour. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbour. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."
(Cathechism of The Catholic Church)

The forgiveness of sins has four steps:
Step 1: Repentance of sins
Step 2: Seek forgiveness of sins
Step 3: Sins are forgiven
Step 4: Make some atonement for the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

Note this is not atonement for the eternal punishment for sin (Jesus has paid that in his blood) but for the temporal punishment due for sin, though punishment may not be the best word for it.

Non-Catholics accept steps 1, 2 & 3 but seem to reject step 4. Yet making reparation/ restitution/ atonement for our sins is necessary for both justice and for our own perfection.

There is a Biblical example of penance as part of repentance.
In Luke’s gospel there a thief called Zacchaeus who was a chief tax collector and became wealthy overcharging on tax. One day he met Jesus and had a massive conversion. He said "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have defrauded any one of anything, I restore it fourfold."
And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house (Lk 19:8-9)'

 

[Lamb]

1459 Many sins wrong our neighbour. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbour. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."
(Cathechism of The Catholic Church)

The forgiveness of sins has four steps:
Step 1: Repentance of sins
Step 2: Seek forgiveness of sins
Step 3: Sins are forgiven
Step 4: Make some atonement for the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

Note this is not atonement for the eternal punishment for sin (Jesus has paid that in his blood) but for the temporal punishment due for sin, though punishment may not be the best word for it.

Non-Catholics accept steps 1, 2 & 3 but seem to reject step 4. Yet making reparation/ restitution/ atonement for our sins is necessary for both justice and for our own perfection.

There is a Biblical example of penance as part of repentance.
In Luke’s gospel there a thief called Zacchaeus who was a chief tax collector and became wealthy overcharging on tax. One day he met Jesus and had a massive conversion. He said "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have defrauded any one of anything, I restore it fourfold."
And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house (Lk 19:8-9)'

Jesus atoned for all sins. Not just ones that deserve eternal punishment...ALL SIN. All our sin is forgiven and we don't have anything to do to please God since Jesus did that for us. That's the Gospel.

 

[Stephen]

Jesus atoned for all sins. Not just ones that deserve eternal punishment...ALL SIN. All our sin is forgiven and we don't have anything to do to please God since Jesus did that for us. That's the Gospel.

Sin is an offence against God. Jesus atoned for sins.
But as well as offending God most of our wrong actions offends our neighbour, and we may be punished for that.
If, in anger, I punch my neighbour in the face and break his teeth, I can expect to be brought to court and punished. I should accept the punishment for my wrong doing not protest that "Jesus has paid the punishment for that" as I am sentence to 5 days in Jail.

We are called to repent of our sins and we do this not just mentally but sometimes express it in our bodies by acts of penitence. This is biblical, the most explicit being fasting. There are many examples of this in the scriptures (e.g. Ex 34:28, Lk 2:37). Jesus said "And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites….” (Mt 6:16). Note he said when you fast not if you fast.

Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. (1Cor 9:25-26)

 

[Andrew]

Sin is an offence against God. Jesus atoned for sins.
But as well as offending God most of our wrong actions offends our neighbour, and we may be punished for that.
If, in anger, I punch my neighbour in the face and break his teeth, I can expect to be brought to court and punished. I should accept the punishment for my wrong doing not protest that "Jesus has paid the punishment for that" as I am sentence to 5 days in Jail.

We are called to repent of our sins and we do this not just mentally but sometimes express it in our bodies by acts of penitence. This is biblical, the most explicit being fasting. There are many examples of this in the scriptures (e.g. Ex 34:28, Lk 2:37). Jesus said "And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites….” (Mt 6:16). Note he said when you fast not if you fast.

Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. (1Cor 9:25-26)

How is praying a form of punishment?

Also, as Lämmchen said, Jesus took our punishment, we must also "take up our cross" and we also "die daily", did you know that "martyr" and "witness" are synonymous?

When we witness to others our faith in Christ we are taking up our cross and following Jesus, no need to recite the same prayer 50 times as punishment

 

[Stephen]

How is praying a form of punishment?

Also, as Lämmchen said, Jesus took our punishment, we must also "take up our cross" and we also "die daily", did you know that "martyr" and "witness" are synonymous?

When we witness to others our faith in Christ we are taking up our cross and following Jesus, no need to recite the same prayer 50 times as punishment

You are ignoring my point about two kinds of offence and two kinds of punishment.

If I beat up my neighbour should it just be ignored if I repent because "Jesus took the punishment"?
If I steal some money can I keep it if I repent because"Jesus took the punishment"?
If I give false witness and get someone into trouble should it just be ignored if I repent because "Jesus took the punishment"?

 

[Andrew]

You are ignoring my point about two kinds of offence and two kinds of punishment.

If I beat up my neighbour should it just be ignored if I repent because "Jesus took the punishment"?
If I steal some money can I keep it if I repent because"Jesus took the punishment"?
If I give false witness and get someone into trouble should it just be ignored if I repent because "Jesus took the punishment"?

No you repent and stop doing it.

I was once a heavy shoplifter and the day I got saved I felt that conviction in my soul and repented my sin, you couldn't pay me to steal a pack of gum now days, God delivered me from that way of life.

 

[Lamb]

Sin is an offence against God. Jesus atoned for sins.
But as well as offending God most of our wrong actions offends our neighbour, and we may be punished for that.
If, in anger, I punch my neighbour in the face and break his teeth, I can expect to be brought to court and punished. I should accept the punishment for my wrong doing not protest that "Jesus has paid the punishment for that" as I am sentence to 5 days in Jail.

We are called to repent of our sins and we do this not just mentally but sometimes express it in our bodies by acts of penitence. This is biblical, the most explicit being fasting. There are many examples of this in the scriptures (e.g. Ex 34:28, Lk 2:37). Jesus said "And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites….” (Mt 6:16). Note he said when you fast not if you fast.

Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. (1Cor 9:25-26)

All sin is against God. That's part of the problem here in that you think sinning against our neighbor is not also against God. All sin is forgiven at the cross. Against your neighbor, my neighbor, etc.

 

[Lamb]

Now there are earthly consequences if I punch my neighbor, but the sin is forgiven by the cross. I can't punish myself for the "sin" but I can be put in jail.

 

[Andrew]

Now there are earthly consequences if I punch my neighbor, but the sin is forgiven by the cross. I can't punish myself for the "sin" but I can be put in jail.

That's like punching someone and then punching yourself for doing it lol

Penance sounds a lot like indulgences to me, using prayer as currency basically.

The goal is to repent and do the right thing if you know you did wrong and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in you will naturally compel you to do so, not by your own carnal decision, anyone can be a "good person" according to their own standards

 

[Stephen]

All sin is against God. That's part of the problem here in that you think sinning against our neighbor is not also against God. All sin is forgiven at the cross. Against your neighbor, my neighbor, etc.

You have me wrong.
I never said we sin against our neighbour.

Read it carefully. I said:
Sin is an offence against God.
That is what sin is.

Then I said
But as well as offending God most of our wrong actions offends our neighbour.
I said offend our neighbour not sin against them.

God forgives our sins - our offences against him.

 

[Stephen]

No you repent and stop doing it.

I was once a heavy shoplifter and the day I got saved I felt that conviction in my soul and repented my sin, you couldn't pay me to steal a pack of gum now days, God delivered me from that way of life.

So you think that if I steal its OK to keep the money?

 

[Andrew]

You have me wrong.
I never said we sin against our neighbour.

Read it carefully. I said:
Sin is an offence against God.
That is what sin is.

Then I said
But as well as offending God most of our wrong actions offends our neighbour.
I said offend our neighbour not sin against them.

God forgives our sins - our offences against him.

Forgive others and the Father will forgive you.

Other people don't matter, they can forgive you but God isn't going to forgive you your sin because you recited 50 hail Marys, they are absolved, you cannot walk into a church and walk out with your sins forgiven/absolved

 

[Andrew]

So you think that if I steal its OK to keep the money?

I think that it's not my responsibility what YOU do, I know that for ME I could not sleep if I stole someone's money, my heart would weigh too heavy with conviction

 

[Lamb]

You have me wrong.
I never said we sin against our neighbour.

Read it carefully. I said:
Sin is an offence against God.
That is what sin is.

Then I said
But as well as offending God most of our wrong actions offends our neighbour.
I said offend our neighbour not sin against them.

God forgives our sins - our offences against him.

But you still think that Jesus didn't take the punishment for all your wrong doings. You keep demanding we punish ourselves. Punishing ourselves before God is not necessary and that's what Penance is. Consequences such as going to jail for stealing is what happens because of the governments set up here on earth where there are people who judge what happens next in our lives. Hail Marys can't get you out of that.

 

[Andrew]

But you still think that Jesus didn't take the punishment for all your wrong doings. You keep demanding we punish ourselves. Punishing ourselves before God is not necessary and that's what Penance is. Consequences such as going to jail for stealing is what happens because of the governments set up here on earth where there are people who judge what happens next in our lives. Hail Marys can't get you out of that.

Exactly, the law of the land has consequences built in, the victim you stole from could easily report it and have you convicted