How did Jesus produce fine processed wine without any fermentation time?

Andrew

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Let's suppose for a moment that the instant wine that Jesus miraculously made from water was taken into a lab for testing.
The data would show that the wine had been properly processed through fermentation and aging, this observation would not prove to the tester that a man changed the properties of water into wine in a twinkling of an eye nor would the tester agree with any one person suggesting that science is merely the study of God's creation.

We know this to be the case with evolution.. Evolutionary biologists will never accept the possibility of an almighty creator compressing billions of years of carbon data into 6 days.

Darwins theory is anything but original, ancient greek philosophers made the same claims foolishly. The concept of matter and atoms was well known in ancient times, however vain imaginations of certain men led to the erroneous teaching that all matter had no beginning, thus no creator.
The ancients believed that mankind began as brute cave dwelling animals incapable of speech but later developed it for survival means by uttering sounds to neighbors when attempting to describe a nearby threat, such as wild animals. As the utterances became common words, they formed complex sentences into dialogue, creating a unique trait that allowed mankind to exchange ideas and form civilizations..

Fast-forward to the 1920s, decades after the death of Charles Darwin and science began waking up to the realization of a "premival atom" or "the singularity" from which the entire universe originated.

Fast-forward again to the 1960s and the Big Bang theory is common knowledge, beating out the former "steady state" theory (matter having no beginning).

So now we have 'time, space and matter', all three having no prior existence, nor any expectations of existing, nor any say in the matter, no will of it's own, becoming suddenly, from out of nowhere, in a twinkling of an eye, and for no apparent reason, from "nothing" .. EVERYTHING!!

If science can say that the universe and all things in it suddenly appeared from out of nothing, than why would Jesus turning water into wine seem so mythical to them?
They can conclude by mere sight, taste and smell that the wine is indeed wine, they can study and test the properties contained within it, so also do they conclude that the oldest rocks are billions of years old, but by not witnessing it's formation they can equally dismiss its possible creation.

One last thing, light travels pretty quick, God spoke it into being and there it was.. however, when creating the earth, God speaks more like a director in the sense that he is directing the earth to perform rapid animations to produce that days work. Just imagine seeing the whole evolutionary process of the earth through a timelapse video compressed into 6 days!!
 

Josiah

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1. "With God, all things are possible." This truth covers a lot of territory and "answers" a lot of questions.

2. The OP states, "if science can say that the universe and all things in it suddenly appeared from out of nothing, than why would Jesus turning water into wine seem so mythical to them?" I fully agree with the POINT here. But it's good to keep in mind that "The Big Bang" doesn't say everything came from nothing" (the Hebrew word in Genesis 1 suggests that), it simply holds that what preceded this didn't "fit" with physics as WE know it (indeed, The Big Bang largely does not), reality as WE know it didn't exist before that, what DID isn't known. OUR "reality" started then, not necessarily "everything." BTW, this is just as the Bible says. There does seem to have been a definite TIME when time in our reality began... and a SPACE, a point, in which the SPACE in our reality began. There MAY have been countless other realities that began then, too (not just ours) and other realities may have preexisted this event.

3. "God is spirit" to quote the Bible again. He exists outside physics (post-Big Bang) and reality (or realities) that currently exists (or once did). Of course, He CAN enter our reality (note the Incarnation) in time and space, He CAN subject Himself to the physics of our reality, but this is His choice, His action. And may not be a miracle (there's a bit of evidence that our universe "bumped" into another long ago - and left a mark!). God is "above" (or perhaps better said, "outside") science/reality as we currently experience it. There's no need to subject God to our stuff. Or even to assume He uses or needs such.


Blessings on your Lenten observation.


- Josiah







.
 
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Fritz Kobus

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Probably he reassembled the sub-atomic particles into wine instantly. I sure would like to try his instant coffee.
 

Andrew

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Probably he reassembled the sub-atomic particles into wine instantly. I sure would like to try his instant coffee.
Exactly my point regarding evolution, with no witnesses to the process perhaps the maker of time sped up time to fit what science calls "evolution" into 6 days
 

Fritz Kobus

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Lanman87

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I've heard this referred to as the "Mature Earth" creation theory.

The basic premise is that if God created a mature tree 3 days ago(say a 50 years old tree) and you analyzed the tree scientifically then science would say the tree is 50 years old when in fact the tree is 3 days old.

The theory is that God created a mature earth, complete with mountains, canyons, and valleys.
 

Fritz Kobus

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I've heard this referred to as the "Mature Earth" creation theory.

The basic premise is that if God created a mature tree 3 days ago(say a 50 years old tree) and you analyzed the tree scientifically then science would say the tree is 50 years old when in fact the tree is 3 days old.

The theory is that God created a mature earth, complete with mountains, canyons, and valleys.
I am not familiar with that idea as a theory, but it sure seems like that is what was done. God created animals, trees, people, etc in their "mature" state. Then told them all to reproduce and multiply.
 

Fritz Kobus

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Well I won't argue about 7000 vs 6000 years, though I think a strict interpretation of the genealogies leads closer to 6000. The important thing is it was thousands of years, not billions or millions.
 

Andrew

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Well I won't argue about 7000 vs 6000 years, though I think a strict interpretation of the genealogies leads closer to 6000. The important thing is it was thousands of years, not billions or millions.
Masoretic Text = 6000ish
LXX = 7000ish
 

Fritz Kobus

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Masoretic Text = 6000ish
LXX = 7000ish
That brings up a whole other debate, regarding the validity of the Masoretic vs the Septuagint. but as I say, thousands is good.
 

NathanH83

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Let's suppose for a moment that the instant wine that Jesus miraculously made from water was taken into a lab for testing.
The data would show that the wine had been properly processed through fermentation and aging, this observation would not prove to the tester that a man changed the properties of water into wine in a twinkling of an eye nor would the tester agree with any one person suggesting that science is merely the study of God's creation.

We know this to be the case with evolution.. Evolutionary biologists will never accept the possibility of an almighty creator compressing billions of years of carbon data into 6 days.

Darwins theory is anything but original, ancient greek philosophers made the same claims foolishly. The concept of matter and atoms was well known in ancient times, however vain imaginations of certain men led to the erroneous teaching that all matter had no beginning, thus no creator.
The ancients believed that mankind began as brute cave dwelling animals incapable of speech but later developed it for survival means by uttering sounds to neighbors when attempting to describe a nearby threat, such as wild animals. As the utterances became common words, they formed complex sentences into dialogue, creating a unique trait that allowed mankind to exchange ideas and form civilizations..

Fast-forward to the 1920s, decades after the death of Charles Darwin and science began waking up to the realization of a "premival atom" or "the singularity" from which the entire universe originated.

Fast-forward again to the 1960s and the Big Bang theory is common knowledge, beating out the former "steady state" theory (matter having no beginning).

So now we have 'time, space and matter', all three having no prior existence, nor any expectations of existing, nor any say in the matter, no will of it's own, becoming suddenly, from out of nowhere, in a twinkling of an eye, and for no apparent reason, from "nothing" .. EVERYTHING!!

If science can say that the universe and all things in it suddenly appeared from out of nothing, than why would Jesus turning water into wine seem so mythical to them?
They can conclude by mere sight, taste and smell that the wine is indeed wine, they can study and test the properties contained within it, so also do they conclude that the oldest rocks are billions of years old, but by not witnessing it's formation they can equally dismiss its possible creation.

One last thing, light travels pretty quick, God spoke it into being and there it was.. however, when creating the earth, God speaks more like a director in the sense that he is directing the earth to perform rapid animations to produce that days work. Just imagine seeing the whole evolutionary process of the earth through a timelapse video compressed into 6 days!!

Minute-Maid wine
 

Andrew

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Minute-Maid wine
Yep, and guess who were the witnesses? His servants... they KNEW that the water had changed to wine in an instant... meanwhile scientists can study and determine all they want about how long it took for the wine to be made, but His witnesses will testify to the truth of the matter.
 

Fritz Kobus

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We know this to be the case with evolution.. Evolutionary biologists will never accept the possibility of an almighty creator compressing billions of years of carbon data into 6 days.

They can conclude by mere sight, taste and smell that the wine is indeed wine, they can study and test the properties contained within it, so also do they conclude that the oldest rocks are billions of years old, but by not witnessing it's formation they can equally dismiss its possible creation.

One last thing, light travels pretty quick, God spoke it into being and there it was.. however, when creating the earth, God speaks more like a director in the sense that he is directing the earth to perform rapid animations to produce that days work. Just imagine seeing the whole evolutionary process of the earth through a timelapse video compressed into 6 days!!
I have to disagree with much of this. There was no compressing of millions of years of carbon data into 6 days. Petroleum and coal deposits are by and large a product of mass burial of vegetation as a result of the world-wide flood that Noah rode out in his ark.

They conclude that the oldest rocks are billions of years old by putting way too much confidence in dating methods that have massive assumptions and error rates and by tossing dates they feel are wrong as bad data. The rocks are actually relatively young (though several thousand years seems pretty old to me).

To have an evolutionary process and compress it into 6 days would be a deception and I can't imagine God doing that, nor needing to. He created the earth and it was that simple. What evolutions think is millions of years is really the result of the big flood, layered sediments, buried fossils, etc.
 

Andrew

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I have to disagree with much of this. There was no compressing of millions of years of carbon data into 6 days. Petroleum and coal deposits are by and large a product of mass burial of vegetation as a result of the world-wide flood that Noah rode out in his ark.

They conclude that the oldest rocks are billions of years old by putting way too much confidence in dating methods that have massive assumptions and error rates and by tossing dates they feel are wrong as bad data. The rocks are actually relatively young (though several thousand years seems pretty old to me).

To have an evolutionary process and compress it into 6 days would be a deception and I can't imagine God doing that, nor needing to. He created the earth and it was that simple. What evolutions think is millions of years is really the result of the big flood, layered sediments, buried fossils, etc.
Are you saying that if the scientific community were to acknowledge the great deluge as a fact, that it would change their understanding of data and move the date of earth sooner?
 

Fritz Kobus

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Are you saying that if the scientific community were to acknowledge the great deluge as a fact, that it would change their understanding of data and move the date of earth sooner?
That was not my thought, but it makes sense and they would have to acknowledge the flaws in their dating methods.
 

NathanH83

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Yep, and guess who were the witnesses? His servants... they KNEW that the water had changed to wine in an instant... meanwhile scientists can study and determine all they want about how long it took for the wine to be made, but His witnesses will testify to the truth of the matter.

If it tasted better, then it tasted older. But it wasn’t older, it was instant.
 
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